Don't beat yourself up over this setback. Sometimes we have to go backward to go forward. As long as I've been out of the marital home now (over 2 years), there are still some days when I think I should maybe go back because it will be easier for everyone else. When I think that way, I have to stop myself and ask how would I be, and then I'm able to see my way forward instead of back. Every time we take a step back, it teaches us something, just like this step back taught you to not go back. So lesson learned. Time to move forward now. Also, everyone deserves compassion, even you, so give yourself some. We are all human and makes mistakes. The trick is to learn from them, like you are doing now.

I'm sitting here crying. The last few days have actually been tough for me because other childhood wounds have opened. I feel like I'm moving my way through pain though, making sense of my past and moving forward. I'm noticing that I'm interacting differently with people, I'm able to show more understanding and patience than before. I see reason behind all of this pain.

Can you go back though? Sometimes we can't go back. I don't think I can here even though a big part of me wants to. In my car, I have LeAnn Rimes in the disc player. Life Goes On resonates with me. I feel oddly envious that it seems like you might have the possibility to go back to your marriage. I don't even have that choice now. My ex is happy to do counselling as long as it's for the purpose of friendship, parenting decisions and communication only. He wrote me this very long e-mail probing to see what I felt for him, telling me all the reasons why he and I wouldn't work and how he didn't want a relationship with me. It was unnecessary and crushing. On the other side, some people would cheer his honesty. I've just opened myself for so much pain and my ego is like a child curled up in its bed crying for mommy.

I am going to try and give myself some compassion but this part is hard for me as I am hard on myself when I make mistakes. Harder on myself than most people, although I've improved at this also.

In truth, I realise via his latest communications via e-mail where i ended up saying to him that I wasn't going to respond anymore because I was finding it draining and it wasn't achieving anything, that counselling is very unlikely to work. I was the one who put myself out in making contact, I was the one making the suggestion, I was the one making all of the effort and expected to do everything he wanted even when I was pointing out that his coercive behaviour is a huge reason why I have withdrawn so much. I'm rambling on but basically I'm hurting, beating myself up but really appreciate your reply. Just need to give myself some compassion.

Honestly it sounds to me like it went very well, and you are just letting your emotions to control your self.

You tell us that your "ex is happy to do counselling as long as it's for the purpose of friendship, parenting decisions and communication only" and that is great.

That is not only a big first step but that is the best of the best.

Now you need the personal boundaries onto your self, as putting the boundaries internally onto your feelings and boundaries onto your emotions and get your self under control.

You say this = "I'm looking deeper into myself and it's painful."
And again that is great, as that is the process of healing.

It is okay to feel sad and angry and hurt and pain, but it is not okay for those feelings and emotions to control your life.

The boundary is where you hurt and feel pain but you do what is needed anyway.

If what you really wanted was a new healthy relationship with your ex, then he said yes to the counseling and that is the first step.

We do not get to click our heals to go back home, as first you must walk down the long road to figure out how it is done.

I say you could try being happy as you did great, and you got the best result available, because he said yes.

And you never know what might happen in the Counseling, as I always expect the Counseling to work out well, and if you both are willing then that is the best that anyone can ask for.

The best things in life always hurt.

I don't think I really have to option of going back to my marriage, except for in my mind. He wanted me to come back 2 years ago; now I don't think so. I really don't know, and I don't care anymore. This is something my mind does on its own. It's nothing I want or deserve. It's not even something I hope for. It's just there sometimes, like a wound that doesn't quite heal.

It may not feel like it now, but his honesty was actually good for you, because it closes that door. Now instead of wondering what if, you can ponder what now. That's the point I'm at. So I make plans with friends, even though a big part of me would rather be home on the couch watching TV, because getting together with friends gets me out of my head and into the real world. I know it's where I need to be.

Cut yourself some slack. Learning to be single again is a process. I'm just at the beginning myself.

Thanks for both your replies. Accepting that the door does seem to be finally closed is painful. Again though, in counselling there's always that hope that something could work out with it but I think it's probably something which will draw out the pain. Perhaps some things which are painful are good but there are times to draw a line under it also. Would you keep sticking your hand into a hot fire over and over again? There's exposure to pain for healing and then there seems to be exposure which is masochistic. Also, my ex's responses have been so self-important and pompous as well as argumentative that quite frankly it leaves me cold.

I just seriously do not see why you would view the door as closed.

You said = "ex is happy to do counselling as long as it's for the purpose of friendship, parenting decisions and communication only"

I wish I could get a door that wide open with my defensive family members.

If you want to get him back as a close lover but do not want to first first work out the = " friendship, parenting decisions and communication" then you are missing the boat.

In that case he is NOT being narcissistic or masochistic and he is NOT trying to cause you any pain.

Him saying that it was not a reunion means that he is placing a boundary on the Counseling, and all you need to do is respect the boundary line.

This is in your own best interest including the interest of his and your child.

Keep your self calm while under pressure as that is the best of all boundaries.

Link http://www.ehow.com/about_4795781_staying-calm.html

He said in the e-mail that he didn't want a relationship with you--believe him. Don't kid yourself into thinking there is hope. You want to be truthful with yourself.

What you can do for yourself is to get into counseling alone to work out your feelings that delve into the past and make you want to do things that are harmful like drink alcohol or take meds (I'm assuming you mean you want to take meds to knock yourself out from the emotional pain) and not to take them as directed.

I think with counseling, you will lose many of the feelings for him because you will care more about yourself. Many, many hugs.

Perhaps some of the pain is because you were chasing something that you knew deep down inside was totally bad for you.
Learn why you desperately chased this person again. Seek the thing inside you that needs to be used in the way that this person used you. It is something that you learned early in life meant you were alive only because you were being used. Then see how to heal that in you.

That is the only way to move ahead and learn to have more normal healthy relationships in future. You knew going in that you were looking for something from this"therapy". It seems that what you wanted is simply not possible. So the pain comes feom denying what part of you desperately needs to heal so you can build balanced healthy relationships.

Yes, the pain is awful. That means you have touched a place that only you can heal. Journal, talk to yourself, figure out what your hope was...these are the things that will free you from this pain.

It is not all about "going against" what people told you
Well unless your pattern is to do the opposite of the advice that you are given. That makes you trapped in never choosing cor yourself but always being forced to choose against advice. It is as much a trapped place as someone who must always take advice given.

It seems to me you have learned something about what your motives are which you can choose to change by healing.

I've had some amazing responses here. Thank you. I also appreciate the understanding I'm receiving here.

Booky-

Last time when I wrote that you should look to your own life, although it was true, I was probably being a little snarky because I felt angry, defensive and quite simply stung by one of your responses to my last thread. I'm really glad of that because every time I get those feelings I always go away and reflect on them. Now, I'm in a better place but I think that like me, you so badly want to make the other person see that they are harming themselves and others and to make everything right. I can see that you really want the best outcome for everybody.

I've done a lot of analysis of the situation and what's happening with the ego. It's complicated but my ego needs to feel like everything is peaceful and happy with others to feel like everything is okay. It needs the feeling of closure. On the other hand, in the end it fears rejection and will run from situations that are likely to cause rejection and withdraw OR it will cling to the person rejected so as to assure its own validity is protected. It's insecure. I stepped back and thought, why did I want good communication? For us to have the possibility of a relationship. I recognised that there was no chance in my eyes if communication could not be improved. He has categorically said no to a relationship and regardless of whether that perspective could change (as I have said the same thing to him when in my heart, it was a different matter altogether) I have to accept it and treat it as the truth right now. On the other hand, not communicating with him, walking away from it is running... which is also my ego in play.

I see that running and clinging are two sides of the same coin with the ego. I've decided to step back and think 'What is my highest value here'. I want a peaceful life, I want a relationship characteristed by love, mutual respect, honesty, compassion and good communication. I also asked myself what a person who loved themselves would do in this situation and I'm making the choice to consciously protect my ego rather than blindly be led by it and choose to walk away. So by walking away, I see myself as looking after my ego and seeing that it's been hurt and to offer some tenderness now. Years ago I had a relationship where my ex categorically said no to a further relationship but I kept on hoping and plotting and looking for signs just to validate my ego (although I didn't realise this at the time). I've learned that this is not healthy.

As far as my daughter is concerned, I see that she deserves to have a relationship with him one day but he is not acting in a way that demonstrates he has her best interests at heart. He truly believes that he has but his ego is so heavily in play and he's aiming to protect it at all costs that he can't see what he is doing and he hurts others around him because of this lack of awareness. I can see your point that if I took him to counselling, this may help with his self awareness but as selfish as this sounds (and I know I am being thoroughly selfish), he isn't my responsibility anymore.

I agree with you that some of his behaviour I have mentioned doesn't flag up narcissism. He's been very honest with me here and I can respect that. I won't go into it but if you look up a list of characteristics for narcissism, he has most of them. He puts on one image for the world, another for my daughter and me, he exaggerates his achievements and sometimes tells outright lies to impress people, he frequently tells lies to justify bad behaviour and if you can catch him out in it, another lie will follow, or it will be an apology or he'll move to outright gaslighting. At one stage, I was obsessively researching narcissism because I began to be afraid that I was a narcissist because of my own bad behaviours that I would use in response to him. It was then I realised that I'd been raised by a narcissist and have taken on board some narcissistic traits which thanks to my ex I am now fully aware of. My gratitutde towards him for these realisations is immense.

I've had a few weeks which can only be described as life-changing... it brought a lot of issues to the fore, including some other childhood junk. It's been an accelerated process which has been painful, I've felt like it's going to kill me sometimes, but I've gone through it. The other night, I lay awake for five hours feeling emotional pain within my body, until it passed and I fell asleep. I'm healing faster because of my willingness to face pain.

In the end, I got tired of dealing with him because via e-mail communications broke down and I left it to him. I suggested counselling and said to him that I was finding communicating with him draining and it wasn't achieving anything, so if he wanted to find a counsellor then he could contact me. It's unlikely he will do this. He sent me two e-mails, one of which said that he would be in touch about contact with our daughter and 'if' he could find a suitable counsellor. He added that he suggested I should do the same. I understand his mind well enough that he is waiting enough time to see if I will contact him with counsellors details so he can feel powerful again and feel like I am doing all the running while he is sitting back.

This may interest you but I have experienced marked improvement in my relationship with my narcissistic grandmother since I moved out and since she spends most of her time alone. For the first time in years, I sat down and had a lengthy conversation with her for many hours and enjoyed it and did not feel judged by her. I ignore her judgemental comments, I respect her feelings as best as I can, I try and see how she feels she is acting for the best interests of others. This alone has transformed the relationship but I notice that she responds differently to certain situations now. There's only one way to get a codependent or narcissist to change, in my opinion. It's to give up on them completely and accept them as they are. At the moment, I am not accepting my ex as he is and this is another reason why I have to walk away right now.

AsTimeGoesBy- I agree I think that counselling for myself to talk out my own issues, which I have been doing, is the best thing that I can do right now. I guess as this is a board where people have experiences with addicts that when I mention alcohol and meds this would raise concerns. I actually rarely drink alcohol. The last time I drank alcohol was over six months ago. Growing up with an alcoholic mother, this pushed me away from the desire to drink it. I don't actually have any meds prescribed. Once or twice a week I take medication for abdominal/back pain but I have noticed that it makes me feel relaxed and drowsy so I do sometimes take it if I'm feeling stressed and want to get to sleep easily. I basically have the desire to do things to avoid pain but at some level I must be mashochistic since as I mentioned above, I lay awake for five hours the other night just feeling emotional pain without doing anything to ease it.

SunnyBunn- What you said resonates with me completely. I keep having the 'I've had enough' feeling because I know that he is not healthy for me and yet, I keep going back for more. At the moment, I am feeling strong and minded to look forward and not go back. If he doesn't follow up on the counselling (which it is 50/50 as to whether he will do), I know that I have the strength to move on. However, I know I will feel tempted and pulled in if he touches on the right note in a follow-up e-mail.

I am a fixer. I always have been, even since I was a little girl. I've wanted to try and fix situations and make things right with people. This is what I want to do here. The urge is strong. The hope is there. In a sense though, I realise that he really is no different from an addict. He has his problems (and actually he does abuse alcohol and become irrational and aggressive as a consequence and fails to see this) and I have to walk away and let him see (or not see) problems. Even a third party counsellor is unlikely to help because a third party can only help you with a problem within yourself if you realise that the problem lies within yourself.

We're both addicts in different ways. In my case, I'm addicted to trying to gain others' love and approval and fix relationships. I have learned though that I don't have to be approved of for people to love me. By just gradually learning to be myself, making mistakes, sometimes offending and upsetting others, trusting more people... more love comes in, not less. I see that it's because I am really starting to love myself and learn to set healthy boundaries as to what I will and will not tolerate from people. I spent so many years trying to gain the love and approval of my narcissistic grandmother when I never had to. All I had to do was learn to love myself and in a weird way, our relationship seems to have improved as well.

Regarding my ex... I make lots of excuses for him but I really do feel like some of my own behaviour towards him was shameful. I feel embarrassed and for a while, I really hated myself for it. I'm forgiving myself for it as it was the family dynamic I am used to coming to the fore and I had to finally face all of the negative aspects of myself and the self-hatred to be able to move towards the direction of unconditional self-love. The difficulty is, if I were to apologise and admit all of this, he would either feel powerful and in the right or admit some of his wrongs but then five minutes later return to beating me up again because I imagine he hates himself deep down like I did.

good book- SELF COMPASSION. would be a great read for you.it helped me a lot to accept myself the good and bad and how to comfort that "inner child". you deserve to be happy, comfortable, unlifted, surrounded by loving people, and love yourself

Alana, A comment you make in your last paragraph made me think of Steps 8&9 of CoDA. It talks about "the willingness to make amends" to those we've harmed. It also says to do so except when it would injure them or others. You know best. The heart of this Step is looking inside, recognizing and accepting what is your responsibility and find the 'willingness' to apologize.

Best wishes to you as you find your Path.