Chronic Pain Support Group
Physicians and professionalsdefine pain as chronic if it lasts longer than three to six months and is persistent. It's distinct from acute pain that is a direct result of injury or trauma. This support group is dedicated to those suffering from chronic pain. Discuss treatments that have worked for you, find advice for your specific experience, and find support. You're not...
I'm out of town working and my RSD kept me from an afternoon in the sun as I'm feeling the humidity in my foot and leg. I knew that a spell in the sun would keep me from doing my best in my writing, plus I'm STILL suffering from a sinus infection that has now withstood 2 different antibiotics. It was mid-afternoon and I decided to let Cancun go on w/o me, and I'd do the responsible thing and rest & take my meds.
I had been caught up in the info about Michael Jackson's doctor's trial on the planes and I watched the tv shows explaining and dissecting Conrad Murray's trial. I was literally transfixed by the amount of coverage Direct TV's channels had and I spent both flights hearing all the info and the arguments. I heard the sad tape of Michael, VERY obviously drugged, and watched as the doctor cried when it was mentioned that he and MJ were friends.
I watched as much as I could find here, but CNN was out and there's no Headline news at this hotel, so most of the coverage I've gleaned from today is from BBC! But it made me wonder, what do you guys think of this situation?
I see a very charismatic, lonely man with lots of money using that fame and money to get what he thought he needed, and that was Diprovan, a medication used in surgery! I know the pain of insomnia, have since the age of 8! I didn't have PAIN at age 8, I just had insomnia. And it went on for years, and continues to this day. Does it happen every night? No. But it does disrupt my life and DH & son's life. It's a terrible disorder and I wish it didn't exist, especially when it is worse b/c of the RSD. But...I could NOT see having an IV (I'm trying to take my needle phobia out of this question b/c obviously MJ didn't have that) and a doctor IN MY HOME giving me a drug that is not used for insomnia but for surgery. Even if I HAD the fame and money, I would want to TRUST my doctor! MJ knew that this doc was giving him medication never used for insomnia. A nurse friend of MJ's had warned him against it. MJ knew drugs well, according to her, and was seeking Diprovan for years.
I tried to see it through the doc's eyes and it seems as if he was TRYING to get MJ off the Diprovan and onto lesser sedatives. He wasn't an anesthesia doc, and he was totally taken by MJ's fame. Watching, you can see the guy and know that he was wrong and he knows it. Hindsight is 20/20, especially after a superstar dies under your care. MJ allowed this man into his home where his children lived, with his many medications. They say MJ was on multiple meds, including opiates. This doc probably had no idea what was all in MJ's system at any given time. Drug addicts are sneaky and they lie, and the doc HAD to know that MJ was an addict. Hell, it was well covered that he'd been in rehab for pain meds.
The odd thing is, while I in NO way support Dr. Murray's actions, nor MJ's, I can see both sides. Murray was caught up in the fame and money, that much is clear. MJ had trouble sleeping, whether it was insomnia or not. He had been introduced to diprovan during his MANY surgeries and knew it gave him a good rest. I'm guessing that by this time, MJ had gone through all the sedatives & tranquilizers that exist, but wanted the Diprovan b/c it gave him a deep sleep. He then used his money, friendship, and charisma to bind Murray to him.
I try to imagine what it would be like to have a doctor at my beck and call and I can't! I'd be terrified that he would do just as this doctor did and go against his better instincts. And in the end, whether you think this is a crime or bad judgement, this is IMO what happened. Murray went against his training b/c MJ talked him into it. They had used this drug before, and Murray was supposedly taking him off (or trying to) the drug.
I wonder, what all was in MJ's system when that Diprovan was administered? Had MJ already ingested some of the drug? Other drugs? Probably. I doubt he was "clean". And what was in the doc's mind when he left MJ alone? The drug is used with a doctor in attendance. Murray had requested resuscitation equipment for MJ's upcoming tour.
I also wonder if MJ did this only when he was touring or rehearsing? I mean, he was supposedly a good father, so what does a kid do when he/she has a bad dream but can't wake Daddy up b/c he's got an IV and is OUT. Did this happen b/c of the tour? Not if we believe the nurse friend who said MJ asked her for Diprovan years before.
And while there are a million ways to look at it, and I heartily disapprove of what both the doctor and MJ did (yes, I think MJ carries some of the blame, too) it still comes down to the fact that no court can bring MJ back. The man was an adult, even if he acted like a child, and he knew what drugs can do. To my knowledge he had no disease like RSD or Fibro or other CP causes.
When I think about how CAREFUL I am with my meds- always writing down what I took and at what time, never taking more than prescribed even if I'm in terrible pain, and never taking my meds w/o checking the Med Log, as I call it, to make sure I NEVER accidentally take 1 pill too many, I have to fault him for taking meds when he didn't need them. There are appropriate sedatives, etc., for insomnia. What he did was so far beyond the reality of life that I have to give him some of the blame. And yes, a part of me is angry. Angry not ONLY that a talented man, a father, a son, a brother, is gone, but that he was taking meds when he didn't NEED them!
We all know what a pain in the butt it is to maintain a life while on pain meds. I can list a dozen things today alone that made me roll my eyes and mutter under my breath. Traveling with pain meds into another country is difficult, but then I've had RSD for almost 15 years so I'm used to it. So why did MJ ADD all this trouble to his life? He had 3 gorgeous kids, a nice family, fame, money...is it never enough? And THAT is where I come to the conclusion that he was an addict and that is why I can't understand. If he had some disease that caused him to medically NEED those meds, it would be different. But no matter what they say, I will always think that MJ contributed to his death.
Does that leave Murray off the hook? Hell no! Docs like this are dangerous. His access to medications was like putting a kid in a candy store. I can tell he was conflicted about what he did, but when did that start? I can't believe he thought it was OKAY to do what he did! But that doesn't take away what he did. He administered the Diprovan, and left his patient alone! He tried to perform CPR on the bed! No spine board under MJ. He lied to paramedics about what he'd given MJ. To protect MJ? I don't think so. He was protecting himself.
This trial is heating up with the Jacksons showing up daily, and fans going nuts outside. They want to blame it all on the doctor. I suppose we could not look at ALL the evidence and say, yep, it was Dr.M- he gave the medication so he killed MJ. I think this man's life is already ruined, and the 3 years he faces is a joke if that is supposed to be a punishment for manslaughter or murder. But looking at him, I think he is already punished. Not that he doesn't need more punishment. I just believe that he knows what he did. He has to live with this forever. Rightly so.
I've written a dissertation on this and I've barely seen much of the evidence. But it really fascinates me. And then I wonder. If this diprovan were the CURE to what ails you, how far would you or I go to get it? B/c in MJ's eyes, I would BET that he thought Diprovan was exactly what he NEEDED to live. The difference is, he could live without it! He had no CP, nor need for THAT drug. And what would you or I do if we had a way to "help" a man we admired, whose money we wanted, and who said he was our friend.
It's a helluva web! And there's also this: while we scramble to find docs to help us with CP that takes over our LIVES, he had but to snap his fingers and he had an IV, drugs and a doctor to WATCH him sleep! Whatever happened, we won't know the whole truth. But is sure did get fascinating all of a sudden!
Forgive my ridiculously long post. But I REALLY wonder, what do you all think of this case? Was MJ in any way to blame for his own death? And why do rich people, rich drug ADDICTS, have such access when we have to stand on our heads to get simple treatment? And in the end, even though I feel for MJ and his family, I DO think his addiction brought about his death. And while the doc has every reason to be VERY sorry and SHOULD be punished, do you wonder if he figured out that if he didn't do it, someone else would? Perhaps someone who wouldn't treat his "friend" as well as he would?
Interesting when you look at it this way. At this point, I don't even know what to hope for! What do YOU think?
I had been caught up in the info about Michael Jackson's doctor's trial on the planes and I watched the tv shows explaining and dissecting Conrad Murray's trial. I was literally transfixed by the amount of coverage Direct TV's channels had and I spent both flights hearing all the info and the arguments. I heard the sad tape of Michael, VERY obviously drugged, and watched as the doctor cried when it was mentioned that he and MJ were friends.
I watched as much as I could find here, but CNN was out and there's no Headline news at this hotel, so most of the coverage I've gleaned from today is from BBC! But it made me wonder, what do you guys think of this situation?
I see a very charismatic, lonely man with lots of money using that fame and money to get what he thought he needed, and that was Diprovan, a medication used in surgery! I know the pain of insomnia, have since the age of 8! I didn't have PAIN at age 8, I just had insomnia. And it went on for years, and continues to this day. Does it happen every night? No. But it does disrupt my life and DH & son's life. It's a terrible disorder and I wish it didn't exist, especially when it is worse b/c of the RSD. But...I could NOT see having an IV (I'm trying to take my needle phobia out of this question b/c obviously MJ didn't have that) and a doctor IN MY HOME giving me a drug that is not used for insomnia but for surgery. Even if I HAD the fame and money, I would want to TRUST my doctor! MJ knew that this doc was giving him medication never used for insomnia. A nurse friend of MJ's had warned him against it. MJ knew drugs well, according to her, and was seeking Diprovan for years.
I tried to see it through the doc's eyes and it seems as if he was TRYING to get MJ off the Diprovan and onto lesser sedatives. He wasn't an anesthesia doc, and he was totally taken by MJ's fame. Watching, you can see the guy and know that he was wrong and he knows it. Hindsight is 20/20, especially after a superstar dies under your care. MJ allowed this man into his home where his children lived, with his many medications. They say MJ was on multiple meds, including opiates. This doc probably had no idea what was all in MJ's system at any given time. Drug addicts are sneaky and they lie, and the doc HAD to know that MJ was an addict. Hell, it was well covered that he'd been in rehab for pain meds.
The odd thing is, while I in NO way support Dr. Murray's actions, nor MJ's, I can see both sides. Murray was caught up in the fame and money, that much is clear. MJ had trouble sleeping, whether it was insomnia or not. He had been introduced to diprovan during his MANY surgeries and knew it gave him a good rest. I'm guessing that by this time, MJ had gone through all the sedatives & tranquilizers that exist, but wanted the Diprovan b/c it gave him a deep sleep. He then used his money, friendship, and charisma to bind Murray to him.
I try to imagine what it would be like to have a doctor at my beck and call and I can't! I'd be terrified that he would do just as this doctor did and go against his better instincts. And in the end, whether you think this is a crime or bad judgement, this is IMO what happened. Murray went against his training b/c MJ talked him into it. They had used this drug before, and Murray was supposedly taking him off (or trying to) the drug.
I wonder, what all was in MJ's system when that Diprovan was administered? Had MJ already ingested some of the drug? Other drugs? Probably. I doubt he was "clean". And what was in the doc's mind when he left MJ alone? The drug is used with a doctor in attendance. Murray had requested resuscitation equipment for MJ's upcoming tour.
I also wonder if MJ did this only when he was touring or rehearsing? I mean, he was supposedly a good father, so what does a kid do when he/she has a bad dream but can't wake Daddy up b/c he's got an IV and is OUT. Did this happen b/c of the tour? Not if we believe the nurse friend who said MJ asked her for Diprovan years before.
And while there are a million ways to look at it, and I heartily disapprove of what both the doctor and MJ did (yes, I think MJ carries some of the blame, too) it still comes down to the fact that no court can bring MJ back. The man was an adult, even if he acted like a child, and he knew what drugs can do. To my knowledge he had no disease like RSD or Fibro or other CP causes.
When I think about how CAREFUL I am with my meds- always writing down what I took and at what time, never taking more than prescribed even if I'm in terrible pain, and never taking my meds w/o checking the Med Log, as I call it, to make sure I NEVER accidentally take 1 pill too many, I have to fault him for taking meds when he didn't need them. There are appropriate sedatives, etc., for insomnia. What he did was so far beyond the reality of life that I have to give him some of the blame. And yes, a part of me is angry. Angry not ONLY that a talented man, a father, a son, a brother, is gone, but that he was taking meds when he didn't NEED them!
We all know what a pain in the butt it is to maintain a life while on pain meds. I can list a dozen things today alone that made me roll my eyes and mutter under my breath. Traveling with pain meds into another country is difficult, but then I've had RSD for almost 15 years so I'm used to it. So why did MJ ADD all this trouble to his life? He had 3 gorgeous kids, a nice family, fame, money...is it never enough? And THAT is where I come to the conclusion that he was an addict and that is why I can't understand. If he had some disease that caused him to medically NEED those meds, it would be different. But no matter what they say, I will always think that MJ contributed to his death.
Does that leave Murray off the hook? Hell no! Docs like this are dangerous. His access to medications was like putting a kid in a candy store. I can tell he was conflicted about what he did, but when did that start? I can't believe he thought it was OKAY to do what he did! But that doesn't take away what he did. He administered the Diprovan, and left his patient alone! He tried to perform CPR on the bed! No spine board under MJ. He lied to paramedics about what he'd given MJ. To protect MJ? I don't think so. He was protecting himself.
This trial is heating up with the Jacksons showing up daily, and fans going nuts outside. They want to blame it all on the doctor. I suppose we could not look at ALL the evidence and say, yep, it was Dr.M- he gave the medication so he killed MJ. I think this man's life is already ruined, and the 3 years he faces is a joke if that is supposed to be a punishment for manslaughter or murder. But looking at him, I think he is already punished. Not that he doesn't need more punishment. I just believe that he knows what he did. He has to live with this forever. Rightly so.
I've written a dissertation on this and I've barely seen much of the evidence. But it really fascinates me. And then I wonder. If this diprovan were the CURE to what ails you, how far would you or I go to get it? B/c in MJ's eyes, I would BET that he thought Diprovan was exactly what he NEEDED to live. The difference is, he could live without it! He had no CP, nor need for THAT drug. And what would you or I do if we had a way to "help" a man we admired, whose money we wanted, and who said he was our friend.
It's a helluva web! And there's also this: while we scramble to find docs to help us with CP that takes over our LIVES, he had but to snap his fingers and he had an IV, drugs and a doctor to WATCH him sleep! Whatever happened, we won't know the whole truth. But is sure did get fascinating all of a sudden!
Forgive my ridiculously long post. But I REALLY wonder, what do you all think of this case? Was MJ in any way to blame for his own death? And why do rich people, rich drug ADDICTS, have such access when we have to stand on our heads to get simple treatment? And in the end, even though I feel for MJ and his family, I DO think his addiction brought about his death. And while the doc has every reason to be VERY sorry and SHOULD be punished, do you wonder if he figured out that if he didn't do it, someone else would? Perhaps someone who wouldn't treat his "friend" as well as he would?
Interesting when you look at it this way. At this point, I don't even know what to hope for! What do YOU think?
If you think about it, MJ was searching for a doctor willing to give him this med. This actually gave that doctor power. What was MJ going to do, fire him and look for another doctor willing to risk his license? He was in charge and he was lax and sloppy. That falls under depraved indifference in my book. Bad enough to enable the patient to do things that are very risky, but not to hold to the highest precautions makes him liable for the outcome.
Michael was a unique individual with a rare talent. He took advantage of his superstar status to get what he wanted. He was not the first and he won't be the last. I miss him though. He was larger than life.
Anyway, Elvis' doc did get some punishment and he had Geraldo Rivera on his case for many years after. When Lisa Marie was with Michael, she reportedly told him that she feared he'd end up like her father. She was right. :(
I was young too when Elvis died, and I knew he O.D.'d.....but I would figure that doctor should have been busted big time.
MJ's doctor is one of the reasons it makes it hard for us to get enough medication to get by, still with pain levels between 5-7, because our PM doctors are so tightly scrutinized. This doctor was a contributing factor to his death, in a major way. I think they will make him pay.
I also think they should find out if MJ was getting prescribed drugs from other sources and make them pay too.
@ Thaliajen, Thanks for your openness and sharing your heart.
David.
I can say if I had money I too would have my own doc and could tell them all off who don't care about me, can ya dig it :)
God rest his soul and be with his children.
Do people who smoke cigs. n get cancer take the tobacco manufacturers to trial if they get cancer??? Good luck on that one, it is written on the cigs. the danger involved yet people smoke them. Is it still the tobacco comp. fault??? I think not.
Its personal responsibility, period. My 2cents worth.
God Bless, Vicky xxxxxxxxxxxxx
The doctor was living there, gave him the meds and walked out of the room. This was being a responsible doctor? He was being paid for more than scoring the drugs and administering them. he was paid to keep him a live as well. Everything was fine, the money, the lifestyle, etc until that opps moment when MJ died. Saving him was not his primary concern.
Do no harm. He failed miserably on that one. He. was not trained for what he was doing and knew it. MJ may have bought his ending and he paid the ultimate price but this man allowed himself to be bought. How easy to say he was trying to save him. He was the professional, not just some street dealer. It was wrong, he did it anyway. That is indifference. If he walked away he wouldn't be going through this. Doctors must be held to a higher standard. Michael was guilty but so is his doctor.
As for Elvis, today his doctor would have been charged the same. One difference is that Elvis's doctor didn't pump the meds in and leave the room, Elvis put the meds into his own mouth.
Both cases were very sad as was Amy Winehouse and sadly so many others.
Oh, and people have successfully sued the tobacco companies. It's been proven that they target certain groups and until the 70's doctors were endorsing smoking. I remember my ob smoking in his office, we were allowed to smoke as soon as the baby was delivered in the hospital. Why? Because the tobacco companies were hushing studies that showed the harm smoking does and putting out their own showing that smoking calming and helps you lose weight. Also good for keeping the digestion moving daily.
He knew it was wrong! He knew it was dangerous. And he knew he was dealing with a drug addict. Addicts lie. And it would shock me if MJ had NOT taken some other meds before the Diprovan was administered. There were drugs all over.
And I don't think MJ ever injected himself with the drug, I think what they're referring to as far as the question of MJ having more Diprovan in his system was that he possibly took some orally. The doc was gone 45 minutes. Diprovan does knock one out but what if he woke up? Could MJ have taken something at that point? No one will ever know. But he couldn't have moved far as he had an IV and a condom catheter attached, among other things.
Dr. Murray is being charged with Manslaughter. No one but some of the loopy band of siblings thinks he was actually murdered. Dr. Murray wouldn't murder MJ, then call 911 with evidence all over, including in the body. I don't think it was intentional. But I do think he should be punished. And what about the lies he told the EMTs? He was asked 3 times if he gave MJ anything and only answered the 3rd time by saying he gave him a light sedative. Right THERE is where he really messed up. He should've said he was treating MJ for severe insomnia (however stupid that is) and told the truth. But he lied, then went about trying to clean up vials of meds like lidocaine, which had to have been used by him to restart MJs heart. The EMTs didn't use those vials.
It's such a back and forth story. What is so sad is that even if he is found guilty, MJ remains dead. And MJ's abuse of drugs brought unwanted attention, the wrong kind of attention, to anyone using pain meds. I think it's important for us to pay attention to what is going on in the headlines, especially when it comes to meds. Just as Dr. Oz started to champion the rights of the pain patient, Dr. Drew is on tv nightly calling medication users "addicts". Will WE ever get "our day in court" so to speak?
As for reply #21, I agree with most of what you said. I agree that MJ was an addict. He abused his own body. But when Murray got involved and did it so recklessly, he was asking for trouble. And he is not on trial for murder, he's on trial from manslaughter. No one is saying he did this on purpose. Well, maybe La Toya, but she is hurting. (And, IMO, more than a little loopy.) I don't think he was murdered. I do think Murray needs to be punished, though. His incompetence is astounding! I'm not talking jail, but he shouldn't be practicing medicine, and he should have to give back to society.
I missed a lot of the trial due to being out of the country but I got a good chunk of it. It's amazing to me, still, that it came to this. Such a talented man. A father, brother, icon. I pray that years from now we'll remember MJ as he was before the drugs. It's just so sad when the death brings more attention than the life, ya know? :(
MJ was, indeed, a huge talent, and as such, had everything he wanted...including drugs, and a private doc to administer them.
Propophol, also known as Diprivan, is a medication used primarily in ORs to induce anesthesia. It is milky white, and often referred to by hospital personal, as "milk of amnesia". This drug IN NO WAY should have even been considered to be administered in a home environment. If you heard the tapes of MJ, played the first day of trial, with his barely understandable slurred speech, it gave you a pretty good idea how he was living. Yet, Dr Murray, the very next day, went ahead and ordered an additional 100 bottles or so of the propophol! THAT is negligent, IMO. MJ was also reportedly taking 50-60 xanax a day...yes, the man had a rigorous schedule, and life, but that is enough xanax to kill a cow! He was obviously tolerant of that medication to be able to take that much, and still function.
The other question raised, was whether MJ committed suicide by self injecting more of the drug after the doc left the room. There is speculation that he was really in NO shape to endure the hefty demands of his upcoming tour, and he knew it, so decided to end his life.
Will we ever know what REALLY happened? Probably not.
I do believe that MJ was a talented man, who endured a whole lot of physical and mental anguish. Real pain. Do I think he was an addict? Yes. Who was responsible for his death? Ultimately, the "good doctor" because even if MJ did, in fact, inject himself with extra propophol, he wouldn't have been able to do so if Dr Murray hadn't gotten the drug in the first place.
A very sad story, and a very sad legacy for his poor children.