Hmmm...NCEC, does your father have any other children that he is in contact with? Something sad I've observed in my own family is a beloved brother-in-law on my husbands side, who has two children from his years of sowing wild seed. Though he has come to know Jesus in the past ten years, he does not have a "fatherly" love for his children. It breaks my heart to know how they (only 16 and 20 from 2 different moms) long for a relationship with him. I think when a parent doesn't bond with their babies, change diapers and marvel at their growth each day, they miss a critical period of relational development they may never be able to gain. In spite of all the encouragement we give him to build a regular dialogue with them, he just doesn't understand their pain. Perhaps the best you can hope for is a pleasant exchange every now and then. I would keep sending him cards on special occasions and updates on your growing family - snail mail - which would keep you protected. I know how it feels to get an ultimatum from a child and I hope and pray you can find a way to keep working with/on your dad - for his sake. Sometimes change takes a lifetime and aren't we all glad our Lord and Savior is willing to keep working with us. I have to remind myself of that often. You may be the only person in his life who hasn't given up on him.

I would love to hear any kind word from my daughter but all I have experienced is a man I barely know who has threatened me and tried to manipulate every single person in my daughter's life. She is now 100% isolated from every person who used to be a part of her life, though I am the main target of her husbands revenge. I don't even know if I've talked to her when I would get a text back bfrom her at the beginning of our ordeal since he has control over all forms of communication.

I know you have a completely different situation, but as a young woman who feels disrespected by her father (as I've been told my daughter does me- via her husband), what would you want to hear from your father? What would be a good communication? Is it fair to ask "how have I disrespected you?" to my ED - especially since I really don't understand and I want to change me if I can? What can I do (if I can get a message to her) and she won't tell me what I've done to deserve years of the silent treatment? I've reached out so many times but I honestly don't think I even communicated with her when I thought I did. I think it was her husband and so does the therapist I spoke to for a brief time. For me, it is a game of emotional blackmail. I honestly don't know how to reach her, and if I did, what I would say at this point since nothing I say is right. My heart is so broken I can barely function some days. You will soon be a mommy too and with that a new perspective on life will unfold as your love for your little one changes you forever as ours did all of us. Any insights would be valuable to me and much appreciated. Thanks for your openness.

Thanks CanadianMother. Very interesting. I do agree that the presence of mind altering drugs creates a whole different type of estrangement to what I have experienced. I guess want to believe that everyone is rational and trying their best, and 'we' could just 'fix' this with a little mutual understanding. Perhaps I am too naive about that.

Like you NCEC, I have tried to fix it with communication, but it seems a rational conversation is something they are not able to have. They need to believe I am a bad person, I'm crazy, I'm evil, I'm …….. (fill in the blank). I would expect this allows them to go about their chaotic lives without having to examine why it is so.

Hi Rosearch. No, he never had any other children. It is an interesting logic you raise there. There is probably something to that. Does your BIL inadvertently (or knowingly) do things insensitive to his kid's feelings towards a father/child relationship?

Snail mail is an idea I suppose. A card for his birthday next month. I really don't know if I want to open that door before he has shown some respect for my boundaries....I will think/pray about that.

It is a good question. I don't know that I have any articulate answer for you. Just some rambling perhaps :) He has (a long while ago) asked me what I find disrespectful and when I told him, he just attacked me for being 'mean' to him. *sigh* I guess I'd like him just to listen and actually hear me. I've told him over and over, please don't put me down, please don't mock me, please dont dismiss my feelings as 'lies' or 'disrespect' etc. He rubbishes it all as 'lies', 'slander', etc. Thing is, it is real to me.

Just like he won’t be ‘controlled’ into communicating with my husband. For crying out loud, it’s not control. It’s not always about him! It’s about this is what I need to feel safe, and I’m willing to do it. It’s not a ‘crumb’ or a ‘condition’. It is a product of me, my feelings. I’m a real person, I have real feelings. Whether he likes it or not, he has hurt my feelings. I don’t particularly want to talk with him even with my husband, but I’m willing to, because it’s not all about me either. If my father wants a relationship with me that avenue is available to him and I will meet him on it. He is utterly unappreciative of that and instead slams me as trying to control him. Ouch.

A compassionate 'I'm sorry I hurt you. I needn’t have called you a pig and I can see now how that hurt you.' from my father would go a ruddy long way with me (as an example, I’m not hung up on the pig comment its just the example I’ve already shared). I would appreciate anything from him that demonstrated self awareness and accountability. Instead he openly proclaims he has done nothing wrong, has nothing to apologize for and that therefore I am lying or nuts if I say I am hurt by him!! Whether he likes it or not (heck, whether I like it or not) he is an important person in my life and his words and actions impact on me. Being accountable for that is different to being blamed for that.

Anyway, sorry for going on. I’ve answered in terms of my own relationship because that’s all I can do – I don’t want to nor could I pass commentary on your specific situation. I guess my advice would be to re-evaluate the hurtful commentary from your EC and see if they are really, in their own inarticulate way, trying to tell you what they need. I know I have gotten the communication wrong with my father at times, said things in the wrong way. I am sorry for that. Being here is so helpful because I can learn more about my role in that without the emotional involvement that can make it difficult (for me) to learn sometimes.

NCEC, you said he lives on the other side of the globe from you. Could there be cultural differences that may be part of what's going on?

Thank you NCEC. Your posts make me re-think some of the communications that I have had with my ES. I may have hurt his feelings as much as he has hurt mine. My DH has certainly hurt my DIL's feelings and she his. Blessings.

I considered that Loss2Big but if that was the silver bullet, why do I have such wonderful relationships with the 20+ extended family I now know over there? They are both modern, western, first world english speaking countries. So I kind of put that theory aside. A contributor, perhaps, but not the heart of the issue.

Really hope I have been able to be helpful on some level to some whom my story might be relevant Sallyannlass. Thanks.

Perhaps your extended family has some answers/insight or could help?

Good idea but ooohhhhh BIIIG no for my EF. He considers the very fact I have a relationship with them as me attempting to conspire his family against him. He absolutely loses his bundle over that. Not that i would anyway, but I've made a point now not to even appear like i'm talking about him to family - as that is clearly a big wound for him.

NCEC, thank you so much for taking the time to respond to each of us. On the topic of my BIL, I think he is oblivious as to how his lack of interest in his kid's lives has affected them. I think he sees them as instruments of their mothers, who are gold diggers (of course!) who only want more child support. When he became a Christian, I thought he would "see the light" and change, but nothing has. He is not cruel to them, as your father appears to be, but he doesn't make the effort to connect with them. He is also married to a woman who is much younger than he and they have no children together. He seems very devoted to her, but at the expense of his kids.

I was struck by your comments about being hurt by your dad and how just acknowledging that would be step in the right direction for you. I think I will look at doing that with my daughter. I apologized for some harsh words I said at the beginning of our ordeal, but maybe I should do it again. I will let her know that in all that I did, I was not trying to hurt her feelings...I was just doing what mommies do to protect their babies. Thank you again and God bless you, your baby and your hubby.

I have spent a great deal of time today considering what each of you have contributed. It has been very educational.

LindaJoan your comment about being hurt not to have your birthday acknowledged stayed with me. I had no intention of acknowledging my EF's birthday and your comment made me question why. I think it is because I have told him I wont have a relationship with someone who treats me the way he does and I dont see his birthday as some kind of special exemption. In fact I felt that to acknowledge his birthday would be to validate his poor treatment of me. That he doesnt think he treats me poorly is irrelevant to my decision at that point. I am now thinking hard about whether that is the right approach or not. I want to enforce my boundaries....but....I dont know. Its got me thinking, anyway.

In the same vein, Rosearch's questions about what is disrespect. Truthfully if he had sent that exact same birthday email via my hubbys mail as requested, I would have responded. Because it would demonstrate that he is listening to me and willing to respect my boundaries. Woukd that have been so hard to do, send it via hubby? Its a very simple, easy to understand and follow request. His disregard for that makes me think I must be worth very little to him. And his second mail, well, he just shouldnt have sent it imho. It was out of line.

Anyway, Ive lits to think about. I just wanted to say thanks all, your sharing is really appreciated.

We appreciate your kindness and input, also. Remember, we can not change others we can only control our own reactions. A lesson I have learned through this sad journey.

God bless you.

I really appreciate all that I have read on this particular thread. It is refreshing to get another perspective such as NCEC. I also agree and can relate to CandianMom since I, too, have 2 estranged children, 2 ED's. I also have tried doing right by them, sending cards for birthdays, acknowledging them and I have been IGNORED for mothers' day, holidays and my birthday and every other time you would call your mother for anything. I was the one to send money when they needed it for medical bills or something special they wanted (if I had the money, I would send it), I spoiled both of them I guess and now I get nothing-long story short, they were manipulated by their own grandmother for a few years and she lived with them for 18 months until she passed away while in THEIR care, but I took care of her for 15 years prior but I "killed" her!!! they blame everything that is wrong in their lives on me and I cannot and will not stand for it!!! I'm certain if I were to call them right now and cry to them that I loved them and missed them and they would get such a kick out of it and "let me be their mom" again for a while until something else pissed them off and they stop speaking to me again. I cannot even describe the disrespect I had to deal with while going through the funeral and wake for my mother. They drank from morning until night every day and sat in the living room making fun of me with their friends while I stayed on the balcony in 30 degree weather smoking cigarettes and freezing so I didn't have to be in the same room with them (I managed to stay sober too) through all of that mess and they have the audacity to be mad at ME?? God wants me to be happy and part of that is having a life that HE has given me and being happy to live it each and everyday. I don't know how many more days I have on this earth, but God doesn't want me living them crying and feeling sad and staying depressed over my spoiled, rotten ED's who are sick and need my prayers and love (I can love them from a distance for now). God is the only one that can restore the relationship. Thanks for letting me vent!! Love and hugs to you all!!!!

That's right, texassunshine. I feel as you do - God wants us to be happy.

Texas, We always do what Jesus leads is to do. Sometimes, that means waiting on God to work in His timing. We let go knowing that only God can change our EC's hearts. In the meantime we pray for our EC and we pray for ourselves that we will move forward one day at a time in His strength.

We never lose hope in what God can do.