Wow! Where to start. It has been almost five years ago that our lives changed in a very dramatic way. It is odd how I reacted when I read your topic because the thought suddenly occurred to me that I no longer live in the past of what happend 5 years ago as much as I did when I first came to DS. To me that is a good thing. It means that I have grown. I still know the events and what happened but when I thought about what to write, that gut-wrenching pain was not connect to those thoughts. Wow,

Anyway, our son moved away to take a better job that was about 500 miles away. He met a Christian divorced girl with a 2 yrs old son and married her. We thought she was delightful. She had an upbeat personality but there were little odd things that would happen that made us scratch our heads a bit. But, we brushed them aside thinking they really weren't that big of a deal.

She got pregnant a few months later and we went down by camper to be there when the baby was born. On the day we arrived we had a conversation with our son and was told that they would not be seeing us for 3 days. This upset us because we had not seen them for months and told him that is was rude to not at least drop by for a few minutes since they lived only a 10 minute drive to the campground. During the conversation something got passed on to her and she then misconstrued it and turned it completely around 180 degrees. We were not told this until after the baby was born and we were packing up to leave.

On the night we were to leave, she called us on the phone and blasted us out for what she now believed to be "truth" when in fact it was no near what we had said to our son on that first day. We have not been able to convince her otherwise and that is the short version of what happened. Much detail was left out and, over time you will pick up more and more.

My DIL is basically a good person but we knew she had "issues" before our son married her. In spite of what has gone on, I still would not have it otherwise. My son is happy and she is happy. She is a great mom, and is teaching our grandkids good Christian values - just not living them too well these days I guess!

Good topic to start with Trying..! Welcome and hope to hear your story soon.

My daughter became involved in what I consider to be an extremist group of Christians that pressures their members to distance themselves from those who do not believe as they do. In the beginning we were constantly being barraged and challenged about our long standing beliefs - for us, Evangelical Protestants. We weren't too concerned about it in the beginning because we didn't think those differences were very far off but as time went on we found out otherwise. I don't think it is their denomination as it is their local group.

However, it has certainly impacted our relationship and for now we are just praying and being as patient as we can be whenever we do have some contact with them. I think it is her husband that is more serious about it than she is. She has a good foundation and we are hoping that it will bring her back to reality soon. God is good and I know that He knows how to handle this.

My estrangement started when my son was born. He was a product of rape and my mother felt entitled to raise him as her own, which was not an option as far as I was concerned. She was furious when I felt like God was calling me to raise him. She spent all of his childhood telling him what a "loser" I am and that I clearly didn't love him, or I would have let my parents adopt him...telling him how much better his life would be with them and how much they could provide for him (they are very wealthy).

There are MANY disgusting and unhealthy details I could fill in some other time, if anyone is interested, but suffice it to say that when he turned 18 (4 yrs ago), he moved in with my parents and all his dreams came true. They bought him the brand new SUV he wanted, showered him with the latest electronics and gadgets and indulged him in every whim. We knew that when he went to live with them, the clear rule would be to never talk to us again. So, we have not heard from him in 4 yrs. My mother finally has the son she felt she deserved....and he essentially sold his soul to be with her. I know I planted many good seeds and I trust in the promises of scripture! I have many other blessings to be thankful for, especially my DH, DD's and a new baby on the way!

Hi all,
Well, my estrangement story is a long one but I will leave the details out for now so I won't bore you on my first post here. Mine is an estrangement due to cultlike influences on our 30 yr old married son.

My son left home after becoming mixed up with a group called the Navigators years ago while he was in college. In the USA they are known to be heavily involved with recruiting through colleges. I don’t know if it is a genuine cult or not but they have some VERY odd practices and behaviors that concern my DH and me a great deal. As a Christian family, I had always thought that they were legitimate but I personally don’t consider them to be legitimate anymore. I don’t know how big their membership is but I do know that they are all over the world evangelizing. They do have a website that certainly appears to be legitimate but they don’t post anything about the problems that many people have with them.

They have leaders that are referred to as “mentors or disciples.” In the beginning we were delighted that he had come to his childhood faith in Jesus as an adult but over time his behavior changed along with the way he talked to us and treated us. This is what started to get us wondering what this Navigator’s group was all about because we rarely ever had any problems with him growing up.

We can’t believe hardly anything he says now because he lies so much. This is so unlike him. It is unbelievable that this is the son we always knew. He is like a totally different person altogether – and not in a good way either! The lies that he tells about us are so disturbing and heartbreaking to hear that it has us very, very upset. Both him and his mentor are telling people we know that they are afraid to even let us know our grandchildren! This is unimaginable to us! We are Christians and he knows full well that he had a wonderful upbringing.

We are heartbroken beyond belief! We pray that this will end soon but as the years go by he and his wife seem to get deeper and deeper into it. Talking is useless because they turn a deaf ear to everything we say to them – if and when we get a few minutes time with them at all.

PRAY....PRAY....and then PRAY some more!

Trying ....Reading your story was very sad indeed! Do you try and make contact with him at all?

Shiney – So glad you decided to talk about this very disturbing situation that you find yourself in. I am so so sorry for what you have been put through over the years. I have heard of the Navigators and was was stunned to see that there is a concern with their practices. I didn’t know they were referred to as “mentor” either. I thought they were missionaries.

I can certainly understand how you can be so upset about the abrupt change in behavior too. Have you tried notifiying the Navigators of the mentor’s actions? Perhaps they are unaware of what is going on and this mentor is just one individual that is out to serve his own best interest. That, unfortunately does happen sometimes.

This is a difficult situation for you I’m sure. Mind control through cultic influences are extremely frustrating for parents because of the very clever twisting of scripture to suit their own personal needs.

Snow ... Welcome! So sorry you had to be here under thses circumstances but we are glad that you found us so that you don't have to feel so alone anymore.

From what you say, it doesn't sound like a genuine cult in the true sense if the word; but that is only a guess from what you have written thus far. There are very good solid denominations in the Body of Christ and yet many, many of those have characteristics, practices or beliefs that may sound strange because of what we believe ourselves. But, the real question is; "Do they hold to the basic doctrinal tenets of the Christian faith according to scripture? That is the most important thing really. Some believe that speaking in tongues is still for today while others believe that it ended not too long after the early church began to grow and spread though the apostles. Those are "side issues" and not to be a cause for dissention in the church as a whole.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I went off on a tangent that doesn't address what your concern is. Perhaps more insight would help us. Have you talked to your pastor about this concern? That is something you could do if you have not done so already.

What is important to us is that you are upset, worried and heartbroken over this. Our situations may be different in many respects but the emotions we all feel over this estrangement is the same for all of us here. We're all in this arena of frustration, bewilderment and at times - despair. That is why we need each other so much.

Keep talking about it. It does help a lot. I know it did with me.

I keep starting to write about how this estrangement happened...I cancel, come back and try again....this is the fourth time. This is very hard to explain or talk about with anyone but I see we have a lot in common here because this thing happened because of my daughters involvement with a cult type of homeschooling. She has been a Christian her entire life, went through private Christian elementary and high school (which I thought would protect her and help give her faith a strong foundation) We've always been close. She's an amazingly dedicated mother to my four grandchildren. She married her high school sweetheart who is a good husband and father and a firefighter/paramedic. I could go on and on about how proud I've been of them both! I know they have to seek answers to all their questions on their own so I accept that part. This is their own journey of finding God for themselves as adults....I get that. But the way they have treated me and my husband since September is beyond anything we could have ever imagined from our own daughter! I know she has to go through this separation process to gain her own individual identity but the uncaring attitudes she now has for us is hard to wrap my mind around.....maybe impossible. She was not a problem during her teenage years......maybe she's in that kind of growth process now. I listen to Dr. Coleman, an expert on adult child estrangement and Im gaining insight into why she has turned against us.....but it's so heartbreaking....I mean completely devastating as you all know the feelings we have when our own child turns against us. We have four grandchildren in the middle of all this. We hardly get to see them anymore.....I miss them so much I can't stand it...they miss us too. They took my oldest grandsons bible away.....we had been reading the book of John together and talking about it in our phone calls.....so very sad....he loved reading his bible...he's only 9. They put all their bibles and Christian books in the garage last time I heard. They left their church. Now they are trying to decide what they will chose to believe, studying, researching EX Christian web sites.....atheists that I don't believe were ever really born again Christian people. This is such a mess I'll have to let it out a little more over time. I have been in tears every single day for almost 5 straight months now. I have lots of physical symptoms of grief....thinking about going on an antidepressant if I don't start feeling better soon. I'm 57 years old and I feel like my life is over. I want my daughter back. I want to be an active grandma ....involved like I used to be. My husband recently took early retirement. We live just a few blocks away from 6 people we love so much...but our daughter allows very limited contact. She says she loves us in a birthday card and a Christmas letter but she sure isn't acting like she cares at all for our feelings. maybe she's too fragile in her own identity and wrapped up in her own feelings about what she's going though that she can't handle facing us.... or seeing our pain? Thanks for being here....this was a bit of a vent....thankful to have a place to let it out.

Roby... I'm on the east coast and you're on the west coast. Here it is 11:55 and I just got up for a "pee" break so I'm going to make this a short one for now.

I read you post and I could feel your pain so much coming through because your story is so much like mine and I'll leave it at that for now. I think I could have writte this myself hon. My heart goes out to you! In the meantime, you write anything you want to write. That is what we are here for.

I'll get back to you when I am a little more alert. I will keep you all in my prayers in the meantime. God Bless!

You are in the right place for now. I am so glad we got this group going. We had felt that there was a need for a group where Christians could feel free to speak about their faith and how we too do have family issues that we have to contend with.

Back to bed for now.

ShineyDays, So sorry to hear about your ES and his influence with that crazy cult/organization. I have many wonderful Christian friends who have known my family for 20+ years, and they all say my mother has essentially established a cult following. Her "members" are not allowed independent thought...everyone seeks HER opinion and does what SHE says. To be in her "inner circle" you have to embrace the concept that the world revolves around her. She requires absolute devotion...you don't have friends or influences in your life that she doesn't approve of (which means more of her 'fan club'). My son no longer goes to church and was allowed to drink (underage) and behave immorally, as long as he tows the line for my mom.

I am fortunate because I know the "inner workings" of the "cult" my son is in....it took me until I was 30 to break out of it myself. So, yes, I used to contact him...all with "we love you" and lighthearted stuff...we know that my mother shreds anything we send him that she gets to first and the rest gets returned to us.

The weird thing with my Mom's little world is that her rules are different than her followers; rules...we didn't speak for 8 & 1/2 yrs, but when she thought she was looking bad to one of the people she likes to maintain a public image for, she texted me that she would like to see my girls (and in doing so, meet their latest granddaughter). I have met with my parents 3 times in the last 2 & 1/2 yrs (during which time my son has lived with them). She does not tell anyone that she & my dad are meeting with us and the whole time we are together she makes incredible stabs at me...so much so that my oldest daughter (12) has begged me to never see her again. My son will be 22 soon, but at our last meeting my mom commented that my daughter is soon going to be 13. "Wow! You almost have a teenager, you must feel really old!" She likes to pretend I do not have a son...because he is, after all, hers. Because I felt that MAYBE...just maybe having SOME interaction with her with open the door to my son, I have put up with her twisted enjoyment of tormenting me...but it is clear that it is 100% sadistic...and will never have her "allow" my son contact with me. She just loves to twist the knife in my heart.

Anyhow, it is different, but the people who refer to her as leading a cult do so because of the brainwashing...and the lack of independent thought...the oppressive rules...and the lack of GOD in their existence...kind of a worship of her.

Either way, our children have been stolen, brainwashed and corrupted into thinking WE are the enemy. :-(

Robynann, I’m awake now and have read your post more carefully and I can understand how heartbreakingly painful this is for you right now. It’s been 6 months of gut-wrenching pain I am sure. I know because I felt like that for a very, very long time also. I never thought the pain would go away - but it has in spite of the fact that the estrangement has not yet ended. Trust me, over time, with Gods’ help and the support of us here you will be able move away from that pain in due time.
As far as your ED’s roots go, we too sent our son to a Private Christian elementary and high school. Our son even received Christ at about the age of 8 or 9 at a Billy Graham Crusade. So, he too had a good foundation. But, there are no guarantees that doing so means that they all will continue on into adulthood in the Christian faith. It simply provides a foundation for later on. Our job as parents is to plant the seeds. I think we have both done an excellent job of doing that. However, at what point in time that seed starts to grow is an unknown factor to us. After they get older and are able to make decisions about their faith our only job is to keep praying that those seeds will start growing.
When you talk about your ED, SIL and how much you are proud of them I too find your story so eerily like mine. I can say the exact same thing about my ES and DIL. She has been such a positive influence in my sons’ life and I am so grateful to her for that aspect of her relationship with my son. She loves my son dearly. She is a great mom, housekeeper and cook. They both attend a Christian church and are bringing up our grandkids with a belief in Jesus and good Christian values. They are a very happy family indeed. BUT, she also brought into that marriage issues that do influence our estrangement with our son too - unfortunately.
As far as their treatment of you for the last months goes, I too find it hard to believe that our son could allow this to even happen to begin with let alone have it go from months into years without more willingness to resolve this before our lifetime here on earth has ended. I too cannot wrap my head around this aspect of it. He knows we are not getting any younger and that his father has many health issues but I’m not sure he really knows this in his heart. How it is that people can say over and over again…”I’m so sorry I stepped on your toes” and yet be completely indifferent to the pain they are causing their own parents is something that puzzles me no end!
And when it comes to the grandparents being denied a relationship with their grandparents? This is one of the most saddest aspects of estrangement. The kids are put in the middle of a mess they cannot identify with. If they are good parents, they are telling their kids not to be fighting with the kids in their neighborhood and yet those very same kids watch their parents fighting with their own parents? This too is deplorable to me and is not the way Christians should be treating other Christians - let alone be so dishonoring of their parents.
I do hope for their sakes, their children’s sake, and for your peace of mind they do answer those faith doubts and questions in a manner that will bring them back to the Lord, (or to the Lord) and that their faith will be unshakeable as a result of questioning their childhood teachings. It is not uncommon at all that kids do this very thing in their adulthood but it is very stressful indeed for Christian parents to wait unknowingly if the prodigal child will return to the fold or not. Billy Graham’s son is a very good example of how a child can be brought up in a Christian home and stray far away only to return after being broken and having lost everything as a result. Keep the faith and just let them know that you are there for them, that you love them and that you understand that you will continue to love them no matter what
If the estrangement resulted because they did not want you to read the Bible to your GS then perhaps you could tell them that you will honor that request but that if your GS should ask you questions about God, you could be free to answer those questions so that he himself can decide what to believe and what not to believe. Answering a persons questions is one thing but teaching a child something the parents don’t want them to be taught could be a legitimate overstepping their boundaries. It is something I think you should have an open conversation about if they will give you the opportunity to do so. Just don’t react to it if they say no. Let it go and perhaps there will be another opportunity.
My son now lives 700 miles away from us but I can’t imagine how hard this must be for you and your husband to be only blocks away from people that are the center of your life and not be able to see or talk to them at all! Ugh! How unbearably painful for you! Big hugs here!!!
Question - when she says she loves you in a card, is it heartfelt or is it more of a signature “Love You - Jan” kind of thing? My guess is that they are in a stage of seeking answers to their own questions and don’t want to have input from sources that they already know what they are going to hear. I would not bring up religion at all but I would be prepared if they do bring up things themselves. Try getting a feel for where they may be at right now in their search and be ready for an answer if they try to persuade you. Let them know what the scriptures say rather than have it be what “mom and dad say.”
I don’t know if anything has help here but please feel free to add to it, clarify it or tell me if I am way off base on anything.
In the meantime, we are here to support you and help you grow in spite of what is going on right now. We may not be professional but we have had personal first hand knowledge of our new found world of estrangement.

God Bless and my prayers are with you.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me with such care and compassion. I feel so bad for all of us mothers going through this. I keep imagining that IF these kids of ours only knew half of the heartache they put us through by rejecting us......surely they would stop! But, in the last email to my daughter I told her some of the pain we're in and her response was that I shouldn't have told her any of that for so many reasons! Not naming those reasons of course So much of what you wrote is true.....I agree. Here's a few points I'll try to clarify: My grandson is on the autistic spectrum so it's hard for him to communicate....the reading of his bible and sharing it with me was entirely his idea. He even told me which book of the bible we'd be reading together next. That was happening right before I found out my daughter was struggling with her faith. After she told me some of what she was going through is when she decided that we, my husband and I, would not be allowed to spend time alone with our grandkids for a period of time while they adjust and try to undue all the years of Christian "indoctrination" . We were not allowed to speak about God to them. believe me it was NOT like we were preaching to them.....it was just a natural relationship between believers.....or so I thought. This was humiliating beyond belief.....to have supervised visits with our own grandchildren over something like this! My husband would not submit to it. Soon after she sent her husband over to talk with us for three hours.....she can't bring herself to face us and talk these things through. So now they let us see the kids alone but we are still instructed to not answer any of their questions.....but to direct them back to ask their parents if they bring up God, Jesus, the bible. We are not allowed to read children bible story books either. They want complete control over what their children are exposed to. This is so hard! My two oldest, 9 and almost 6, love God with all their little hearts. You're right about this all being unbearably painful.....at times I find it hard to catch my breath! Every email I have written, just about, gets all twisted up....she doesn't seem to understand what I say....or doesn't WANT to understand....then she might have to feel some guilt and maybe feel sorry for the way she has been treating us. Right now, it's ALL about her and her family....like we're not her family too. We got a long email last night that she has sent out to everyone who is praying for them and all the people that are concerned. My husband wrote her back and said some things that have shut the door even more! I warned him she would react badly....but he wouldn't listen to me and sent it anyway. The exact part I asked him to take put was the exact thing she reacted to. I get all the flack for all the mistakes my husband is making. Wish we could be a united front. We have to be very careful if we want any relationship with her or with our gk's. She has all the power. Not being able to have a relationship with my grandkids would kill me. I asked if we could see them at least once a week....she said back, "That's not going to happen." And that her and her husband think we are being demanding.....just by asking! It's been three weeks since then. I'm getting to the point where Im going to have to ask to see them. What can I tell them when they complain about how long it's been.....they don't know it's not me keeping us apart. All I can think of to tell them is, if they ask, "It's up to your mom and dad when we get to spend time with you."

Let me try to clarify how this estrangement began. Our daughter came to us one day, spent almost the entire day talking with her and supporting her in leaving this cult like homeschooling group she was in. She brought her concerns to us, seeing how their beliefs contradicted her faith...she wrote a long letter to her mentor in this Waldorf/Rudolf Steiner group explaining in depth why she couldn't go along with them. We were under the assumption she in fact left the group. We were so proud of her for standing for her faith against what they were trying to yeah her. Then two months later I found out she had decided to stay with them! That's when she closed the door tight.....her boundary was NO discussion on the subject...just to trust her.....that she was making the beat decision for her children. I was alarmed to say the least! I began studying, researching this group and found it's a religion called Anthroposophy started back in 1921 in Germany and has spread all over the world. Shocking things I found out.....everything looks so beautiful on the surface, nature, art, dance, creativity, slow gentle parenting etc. But when you look deeper it's a cult religion FULL of occult new age type teaching.......completely against everything the bible teaches. So I crossed her "boundary" in a couple of emails telling her some of what I found out asking her if she was at least talking to her pastor about this. She would not answer me except to reiterate this subject is closed. Then my husband sent her some emails that I knew would make it so much worse....and it did. All that was before I knew she was turning from her faith so I thought I was doing the right thong by continuing to reach out to her to protect her. Now that I know it's a much bigger issue.....I've put it in God's hands. She is still searching and I pray she will find her way back to God. Now it's her relationship with me and her father that needs healing. I keep reaching out with ideas she is not ready for. There's got to be more I can do on my end than wait and wait some more until she's ready to talk to me about any complaints she has about me. I'm willing to listen.....but I also want the chance to speak! She throws out accusations and then won't let me respond. Or when I try, in an email, she twists what I say into meaning what I am not saying...she judges my motives.....she doesn't let me explain myself. her perception is all that matters to her right now.....even when she is so wrong about me, my thoughts, my feelings, my motives......everything about me she seems to have wrong anymore. I feel that Im losing my daughter......and for no good reason. I have so much compassion for her struggle she doesn't even know about. She won't let me talk!

Roby ~~ I have never heard of the group! I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I would find out as much as I could about this group, what their beliefs are, their practices, who the founder is and how they got started.

As far as the demands of the parents go, I think if you want to see your grandkids at all you will have to do as they say or else it may get worse and then you would never see them. Those grandkids will see your love, your kindness and your example every time you see them. They will not forget that. The more they want to see you the more they are going to let their parents know that they miss not seeing you if it ever gets to that. My pastor likes to say often; "Live by example and add words if you have to."

My fear for you right now is that if you don't give them some space they are going to cut you off entirely. It truly will be hard for you to do but I lost my son primarily because feeling like I had to address each and every one of their misconceptions that they had with us. I thought that if I explained and clarified surely they would see where they were wrong but little did I realize that the fewer emails, the fewer calls and the refusal to addreses those things I wanted to addressed were in fact, saying to us "we are giving up on you if you don't stop." In retrospect, I wish I had been on a support group like this that would have told me that the way I was going about it was only causing the gap to widen.

Please keep posting and let us be your venting venue. God Bless!

Thanks Mateo. I have read everything about this group unti I'm blue in the face and literally sick to my stomach. She refuses to talk about it and o ly wants to see the "good" in it. Thank God she put them in public school for the time being....though she may take them out and start this method of homeschooling again.....I'm praying she won't do that. These DS groups are really helping me from making any major mistakes.....going along with what she wants for now. She has the power to cut us off completely so I am walking on egg shells giving her all the space she needs. It's been three weeks since I've seen my grandkids......I KNOW they're missing us too. I guess I'll have to ask her when she will let us see them again. maybe this weekend we can take them to the park near by? I hate having such fear of my own daughter! How could she not understand how this hurts her own kids.....she knows how close we are to the two oldest. Maybe she doesn't want us to have that close of a relationship? Little by little she seems to be separating us from them. I wanted to be an actively involved grandma. I'm having to let many of my dreams go, about living here so close to them. They are not her dreams. I have to respect that bit I still want to work out a new relationship with her if she would only open up to working out a relationship that would be good for both of us. I'm still hoping her heart will soften.....she's become so hard.