Church is for sinners. But I think when your in leadership-if an usher is considered that- you are held to higher standards. I believe this is biblical- though i'd have to look it up - Good question.

Sure, I understand church is for sinners. I'm a sinner and humbly know God loves me. What concerns me is why didn't Tiller renounce abortion? I assume he was growing in faith if he accepted the Lord as Savior. The Holy Spirit that indwells each believer would not allow him to continue to do what he was doing. He would feel guilty and fold his business.

In my church for instance, I belong to the missionary committee and I feel very responsible to live a righteous life. God has given me higher standards to live that come with the responsibility.

DO NOT FORSAKE THE ASSYMBLING TOGETHER---THATS WHAT HE SAYS TO BELIVERS. IT FOR BELIEVERS TOO.

You know the more I hear you all talk about God the more I don't think I like him. There are many reasons to terminate a pregnancy or not to and I don't think it is our place to judge people on this, homosexuality or any other personal issues people have. That job belongs to only one person, God. There is a saying "The easiest thing to do is to mind one's own business yet so few people take the opportunity to do so" Who are we to judge anyone else when we ourselves are not perfect and if you are going to start to quantify your sins against someonelse's then we are at a cross roads and I don't think God wanted us to do that. Now I know I'm gonna cop some flack over this - so bring it on!!!

No true Christain who follows the teachings of Jesus would be pro abortion. Thall shall not kill is 1 of the 10 commandmants. Anyone can call themself a Christain, to follow the path less chosen, the one Jesus took is the real test. If Jesus was asked is abortion was good , I doubt he would say yes. The "doctor" killed full term children, but will no more. Love the sinner hate the sin. Stillcruzn no need to "bring it on" just look in the bible for your answers.

is abortion good* correction

stillcruzn, we don't judge by feeling. We go by what Scripture says. God loves us all, yet He does hate sin. True, we're all sinners, yet when we continue to proudly sin, He hates that. Yeah, we're only human and of course we're bound to sin, and I'm also guilty of that, so I'm not throwing stones. However, to remain silent would be the same as remaining silent when a child crosses a busy intersection with a speeding truck approaching. Is it that child's rights to run in front of a speeding truck?

So, it is vital for us out of love, tough love, to tell the world that we need to tell the truth and yes, it will hurt, but it is the truth.

A child running across a road is totally off of what the discussion is. I understand this fellow terminates full term pregnancies which we all have a right to be upset about, however you have no right to judge those whose personal beliefs aren't the same as yours. Now I'm not talking about abusing these services but everyone has a RIGHT to choose no matter what anybody else thinks about it, yes you can speak up about it but not to the detriment of that persons health. If you really want change, then fight to get the laws changed because while there is a need, there will always be a provider. Look we could go on forever and I respect that we all have our own opinions and view things differently so I think we need to agree to disagree to a degree and you can say it's what the bible says but we all interpret the same words differently.

There is no different interpretation, people just don't want to accept what it says at face value. Stillcruzn Jesus does love you, and proved it by dying on the cross for you. He has made a way for you to be saved, but you will need to give Him your life, you will need to take up your cross and follow Him. Why did He have to die for you? He died for us because we are all sinners. Now then since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, why would anybody go to hell? Because His death and resurrection are not effective on those who do not believe. Christians do not have a RIGHT to choose, we have been bought, not with corruptible things like gold or silver but with the precious blood of Christ, so that we are not our own, we are His. He has redeemed us, we are His bondslaves. We choose to submit to His authority because He first loved us. Our sin natures will never agree with His will, but the new nature He has created in us always agrees. It is interesting to me that when the LORD does judge the earth this is the witness against those who have chosen to live according to what is right in their own eyes:

Revelation 9:20-21 "20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."

Revelation 16:9-11 "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which has power over these plagues: and they did not repent to give Him glory. 10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds."

Revelation 16:20-21 "20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great."

They will shake their fists at God, though He continues to give them room for repentance. They will have so hardened their hearts because they want their own way and it becomes a pride thing, a last act of defiance... so to speak. Not understanding that God is love and Satan has blinded their eyes to the truth, who is Jesus, the way, the truth and the life, and no man can come to the Father but by Him.

Another truth remains, all eyes will be opened and all mankind will bend their knees and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is LORD. The bible says that every mouth will be stopped in His presence, the truth painfully clear, the love of God and the rejection of that love by those on this earth who want to sing with Elvis Presley, I did it my way. Our way leads to destruction, His way leads to eternal life. His way is love, but agape which is sacrificial love, and those who sacrifice their lives to live for Him will never die, because He is the ressurrection and the life, and any who believe in Him, though they die, yet will they live! There is hope for all, the free gift of salvation is available to all, but many are rejecting His gift because of the attachment of submitting to His Lordship over their lives. Because many love the pleasure of sin and are not willing to come to the light that their deeds may be revealed and removed. God continues to speak to you through many on this board because He loves you and gave Himself for you, that you might have life, and that more abundantly. Truth cannot change because you don't like it. Truth remains truth in spite of our opinions. A man who has done PCP and believes the law of gravity to be stupid, may get others to agree with him that the law of gravity is stupid, but when they jump from the fourteenth story of the skyscraper they will learn that the truth is gravity remains in spite of their disagreement with it. All mankind has the death sentence upon their lives, all of us. As if we sit on death row just waiting for the needles to complete the punishment. Now we deserve this death, because the wages of sin is death, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, truly in our place, to die for our sin against His righteous law. The apostle Paul wrote it like this to the church at Corinth in 2 Corinthians chapter 5:

" 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christâs behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

The last sentence "For God made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"! Jesus took our death sentence upon Himself and traded our sin standing with His righteous standing! It is a free gift for all who would receive it by faith.

You really need to read through the gospel of John to change your perspective, your views are filled with your own understanding and feelings, you have not known God, but He wants to know you, open the bible, go to bible web sites and read John, He will speak to you, He will reveal Himself to you and you will be tremendously blessed!

stillcruzin, a child running across the street is a metaphor. Out of love, we would do what it takes to save that child's life. Does that mean to seem nice, we're going to let this child make an ultimate mistake of running in front of a truck and possibly get killed?--or are we going to care for this youngster's life and pull him/her from harm's way? Yeah, we don't have to right to rush to judgment without thought. That's the same mistakes the Pharisees made. Loving people with our hearts is also telling them where they're wrong, and then encouraging them to do right. I come here to share and sadly, many people are thin-skinned thinking that when we share concerns, we're forcing opinions. It is up to anybody who reads my comments or anybody else's to accept them or not. However, I cannot just stop, even if somebody finds it offensive, as long as it's the truth. I cannot bend to the winds of political correctness.

inluvwjesus, the fact that Jesus bought me at a price humbles my heart very much. Part of the reason I want people to know that eternity without Christ is torture. As much as it might hurt, the truth is available to us through the Bible that God is the ultimate author.

To conclude, I love everybody here, no matter what. That is what God would want me to do. God loves us and He hates sin. God bless.

Don't think I've taken anything you have said in offence Penguin - I'm an auditor, I have very thick skin, but you addressed your answer to me so I replied. This is the sort of discussion that should be allowed on these boards, what I don't like is to be told what to believe. As I have said, we all have our own opinions and we all interpret what the Bible says differently. We all come from different backgrounds and for some of us they have not been easy ones. I have a mind of my own and I will not go out of my way to disgrace someone in public or deliberately hunt them down to give them a piece of my mind. It is not my place to judge these people, the only person who can do that is God and ultimately that is who they will have to answer to, not us. If I know someone who is homosexual I am not going to hate them because of it. I will not agree with what they do but it is between them and God. If this person was and alcoholic, or a drug addict or a gambler, would we be having this discussion? Discussion is good and as long as no one gets personal I can't see any problems with it.

Stillcruzn I don't think anyone has asked you to hate the homosexual. However we can separate their sin. Just as we are not supposed to hate the murderer, even as Corry Ten Boom story so beautifully portrays the love of God's ability to cross the boundary of hate and reach out to the person who had responsibility in the death of her sister in the concentration camp. Hmmm if the person was an alcoholic, drug addict or gambler, we would and should also have these discussions. The reaility is that these other sins are not trying to vie for acceptance in our society, they continue their sin in special places like Nevada and Indian reservations. I cannot stop people from sinning, but I must warn them of the consequences of continuing in sin, this is the love of God. God is not willing that any should perish, He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God's Word tells all believers what to believe. There is no difference of interpretation of certain values. Give me examples of the differences, so that we can bring to light those things so that the discussions can bear even more fruit.

Quite right that we shouldn't judge people for their deeds as that is God's job but I think that when it comes to Christians, we the "church" should stand up for what we believe and say that Tiller's work was wrong. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Yes we should stand up for what is right and condemn what is wrong, don't we teach that to children? Peru I agree with you 100 percent tha "loving people with our hearts is also telling them where they're wrong and then encourqging them to do right" - good post.

Please explain to me what it takes for God to condemn a person.

Rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Basically to continue in practice of sin, in spite of the fact the Jesus has told His followers to go and sin no more, would be a fearful place to be, especially since Paul warned both in 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 that those who continue to practice sin, means to make it their lifestyle without repentance or confession, those will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. At least that is the only condition it takes for God to condemn a person, since all of us are condemned already according to Jesus word to Nicodemus in John 3, and Paul reiterated in Ephesians 2:1-3. So Jesus is the only salvation available for mankind, and rejection of Him would be as a rejection of the only cure available for our sickness called the sin nature.