After betrayal, you NEED to do all the work, for a while. It is your responsibility to repair the damage. If you do all the work for a while, you should begin to see your W coning around, but it is a very gradual process after such devastation. Heartache and silence as you said, are normal reactions.

Perhaps you need to get into IC and MC.

The thing is, the responsibility is much greater for you than for her to save the marriage. What I mean by this is that she is hurting, distrustful, etc., and it is all on you to show her that you are willing to do everything it takes. No blame can be placed on her for anything. She needs nothing but love, understanding, kindness and remorse. You need to completely stop any contact with ALL other women that endanger your relationship with your wife (whether she knows about them or not). The damage done by cheating is very bad, and it takes a lot to rebuild. You cannot let your wife see you lose patience, become frustrated, anything---she needs nothing but kindness----until. Even if she asks you the same thing a million times or says hurtful things, you have got to be empathetic, understanding and kind. This is the only way that she will know that you are sincere (and it will take a while). Otherwise, she will feel that she is being blamed, that you are putting some things on her, and this will definitely not let her heal.

Oh another thing, your W needs to feel that you want to be with her, not just that you want to be in the marriage because of duty and/or the kids. Otherwise, it would be best to just go ahead and let her and the family thing go--I am sure that saying that to her has already caused her to doubt the relationship even more.

As a BS, if I had felt one little iota that I was being blamed for anything, I would have ended the relationship immediately. That would have shown me that this was all very likely to happen again. A hard thing, but like I said, the damage is great and rebuilding takes a lot.

I know this is difficult to do, but it is the only way to rebuild trust. I wish you the best.

Thank you Sarah2220. I know this is the "right" answer according to the prevailing wisdom. There's something about it that just seems a little incongruous.

We've been in IC and MC for years now. I don't blame her for my terrible choices, or excuse myself for filling needs in an unhealthy way. That's my work.
But honestly, for me to continue to fight I have to see some desire from her to fight as well. It's very easy from the outside to look at the CS as the source of all the problems; but the cheating is usually just the tip of a very large iceberg.

I hope I don't sound smarmy, but there's a gender component here as well. It is usually men who "ruin" marriages (alcohol, cheating, etc.). They usually do the obvious things that are unforgivable, take the steps they can't undo. But in my experience (and certainly looking at my wife's parents, this is true), the woman often quietly erodes a marriage with a thousand slights, a thousand critiques, and a thousand votes of "no confidence" year after year after year. This steady "sanding down" of a man eventually reveals/prompts some horrible choice and everyone leaps up and shouts "Sinner!" and conveniently ignores the more insidious form of relationship destruction.

My wife's father has somehow managed to bear this for 47 years, and is snarkily accused of alcoholism even when he goes dry for years. And then, periodically, he in fact DOES drink (and binges). Well, where does the responsibility lie here? It's just a little too easy to point at the active party I'm afraid.

Marriage is composed of 2.

I want to be with my Wife, but with the part of her that can love and support me and be kind and warm. I do not want to live with the side of her that believes I'm an inadequate schlub. I'm willing to admit that my behavior begat the very attitudes in her that frighten me, but without some recognition of all this, how we each trust that we want to give it a shot?

I'm hope you don't think I'm a cad, but I think there's some truth in what we're both saying

I had MC/IC.....and actually my therapist disagreed with Sarah to an extent.

She (the therapist) felt both of us had work to do. The A was the symptom, but each of us was lacking in our commitment to each other and to the M. I was the one that chose to go outside the M (and please know I am NOT saying it was my H fault I chose to take that road), yes, but it needed to be a joint effort to rebuild. And we are still rebuilding. I completely, completely agree that marriage is composed of 2.

We actually had exercises/homework to do that we both had to commit to. One.....well for example (and this is a simple benign one without giving too much info away)...my H had to put down his blackberry when we were having dinner. That act drove me crazy and contributed to additional loneliness. When he was shut down from conversation, it led me to my phone, and subsequently I was chatting with OM because HE was talking to me. In rebuilding our relationship, it was not....."I cheated and I'm going to do all the work to rebuild and you can do whatever you want and my only role is to make you happy and trust me again and you can treat me however you'd like." It was not that. At all. Because then the decision would be different.

I have made a definitive choice, as did he, to continue to be married (and again, its ok if that choice is different.....I think we are all so focused on "Save the Marriage" and "You have to return to your spouse" ..that sometimes, sometimes that is NOT the answer) and we are always cognizant that we are doing just that. Some days are amazing, some weeks are amazing, yesterday evening was amazing....but there are other times that there are triggers that prompt us to shut down from each other and we need to be cognizant of them and how we respond to them. Period. Both of us.

We are all growing, evolving individuals.

Shore....I like your MC's comments . I think I'm still toying with the A life (although it's crumbs at this point) because I'm afraid to go back to the way it was. H is nice to me, affectionate and even compliments me but I am tired of his work work work and using his computer while we try to have conversations. I have stopped mid sentence while he glances at the computer and I'll say..."ok, I'll wait till your done with that". He says, "go ahead, I can do both". I say "I'd like some eye contact or at least face you to get a feel for your expression.." .The he huffs.....

It's not the BS's fault that A's happen.....but it is partly their fault that marriages fail. Read that carefully....the marriage fails because of both .

(Ok, someone probably WILL have a story of the perfectly good person who married a complete a$$h@le...)

BOOM!!!!! And I agree. And I am a BS.

I think what I wrote was misunderstood. I never said that the CS is the source of all the problems in the M that could have led to the poor decision to cheat. But the CS DID make the decision to betray the spouse, and that type of thing is very very damaging. I am talking about the CS owning all the responsibility of the cheating---which is where the trust was broken, and which is often the hardest thing to repair. This is where the excessive kindness/understanding comes in. I agree with what was said about the BS needing to want to work on the marriage too--it does take two. But to get to that point, most people need to recover somewhat from having their trust shattered, or at least believe that the marriage is worth saving and they cannot do that if the CS is placing blame for the A on them. Timothy, perhaps this is a good question to ask your W--if she really thinks that the M is worth saving, and if so, if she believes that things would be able to eventually be worked out and that you guys could go on and have a healthy marriage.

If your W does not want to even talk about fixing what was wrong, where you were not getting what you needed, etc., that is another story---and that might very well make rebuilding impossible at best.

As for me being on the wrong board, JustDrifting---I do believe that I have walked in the BS shoes, as I have felt the sting of betrayal. Just because I am not married does not mean that I do not understand betrayal and cheating and what it takes to rebuild. I have done a lot of reading and learning about cheating, why it happens, how to prevent it, etc. etc. etc, on an ongoing basis. I have experience with rebuilding. I have a valid opinion, just as everyone else here does. I would never tell someone that they are on the wrong board, as lots of different input from different people does have value. If I were being disrespectful or not being nice, maybe then someone should be telling me that I don't belong here, but that is not what has gone on. If anything, your FWB comment was insulting--I mean, who in a FWB relationship would even think that they were going to get any loyalty from their partner? How is it that a FWB partner would be able to cheat if there was no loyalty there in the first place? I completely do not understand why anyone would ever want a FWB relationship, but that is just me.

Also, I am not so naive as to not realize that cheating often arises from very complex situations/problems, but IMHO, a healthy way to deal with those problems/situations is to talk things out and try to fix them within the marriage instead of going outside of the marriage and cheating. Cheating makes things worse and creates another problem to add to the pile. Going forward, learning to talk things out and work on problem areas is the approach that needs to be learned in order to reduce the possibility of cheating happening again. A H and W need to be on the same team.

Thank you Sarah, you opinion is TOTALLY valid, and I've always appreciated your insight. Keep it coming.

And I think you're right: the immediate burden of responsibility lies on the CS; the BS is full of holes and bleeding. Everyone is different of course, but after 6 months of really, really hard work on my part I just suddenly realized I was at the end of my rope. I had owned my actions, apologized daily, accepted the anger and resentment with calm patience (mostly!), and been the most exemplar husband and father I could imagine. After half a year, I hadn't seen even the glimmer of recognition that she might be part of the problem and (hence) part of the solution. All I heard was "You, you, you." My IC asked, "what do you just LOVE about your W?" And it hit me that I had no idea. It's hard to love a big angry finger poking you in the chest day after day after day.
She then asked what 3 words describe your W? "Cold, Hard, and Afraid" sprung to mind and I haven't seen much to convince me otherwise. And to realize how happy I was being apart, not feeling miserable, was a revelation.

She has admitted she "wasn't a perfect wife" but it just seems like a catchall, with no serious introspection. No recognition that she was nurturing a home of despair and loneliness.
I still love her and am attacked with doubts all the time (especially when tired), but I can't make her see what she doesn't want to see.

And yes, I'm a little afraid that I'm being unfair to her, creating a narrative to suit myself, but I think this is pretty much the whole truth. If I ever marry again, I feel equipped to choose more wisely and to navigate the shoals of marriage with much better communication. Sarah is right: dealing with problems in a healthy way involves frank, respectful communication between both.

How sad this all is. I thought, growing up, that marriage was going to be so fun and easy. Damn.

Thanks Timothy. I understand better where you are since you have told me more about your story. Perhaps your W is narcissistic--these people do not take the blame for anything, even when they blatantly do something wrong or do not handle things right. To make this work, both people ned to be trying to make it work. If she thinks inflicting guilt on you over and over will give her an advantage, she is wrong. Doing so is behaving as if you are not part of a team. Both of you need for be for the marriage.

Sometimes people just have their own take on things, and steadfastly proclaim that as reality, when indeed it is obviously not the true way things are. Some people just cannot be communicated with no matter what. Your W is sounding like one of these to me possibly.

Another question - you made reference to being intimate with other women already in your OP. Can you elaborate on what has gone on there? I did not understand the time frame on that. Perhaps your W is picking up on something there--sometimes intuition plays a big part in how people react.

I just love the way we all throw around the "narcissistic" label. Kind of the "go to" point the finger at blame relief. Just sayin......

If you are referring to my post, it was definitely not about blame relief--it was about trying to understand. Most people are not narcissists, but that does not eliminate the possibility...

Timothy @ Replies #2 and #9:

Thanks for your posting about the problems in your W. I totally get it. I have been there as well. At this point I totally regret the whole affair and regret ever meeting OW. At the heart of these problems is when the spouses start taking each other for granted. That is what occurred in my W and what seems to have occurred with you and JD. Our W's seem to have taken us for granted and it pushed us away until eventually we crossed paths with someone that made us feel valued and desired.

Now that the fog has cleared for me, I see that although my W had its problems, there are also very positive things. Things that I ignored during the affair just to justify what I was doing. Who ever said that being a gown up was easy?

Totally agree with Sedge. I think all in all that was the root of it all. Very commonly, especially after long term marriages, we do take each other for granted. We may be doing things for the good of the family but forget who we were in the early phases of our relationship. Again, people change naturally and I think we realized the drastic changes and how significant they were after the A's, when you can see things more clearly.

Ironically my H wasn't happy either. He chose not to have an A YET but he gets plenty of opposite sex attention..... And I was very aware of those interactions.

It was at that point a decision had to be made: Do we stay or do we go?

In the 6 months of wrestling with the "addiction" diagnosis, one of the more profound revelations was that while I might have gone down that path eventually, I never really started down it. For an addiction to be life-controlling, there first has be a desire to stop the behavior (smoking, alcohol, sex) and the subsequent realization that the habit is stronger than you are.
I never saw what I was doing as bad in the first place, and so never attempted to "quit."
MY IC recommended I "pray for the willingness" to quit, and it seems to have finally sunk in with me.

As of today, I'm committing in front of all of you to "quit" my habit of seeking intimacy in other women, even as we head into the final lap of this awful divorce. To keep me sane, this commitment is dated to 15 October, our court hearing date. I've cut ties with all OW.

Sarah, you're right, I think my W is picking up on something. I had committed (and held to) being "sober" after Dday, and made some remarkable progress. When it hit me that she wasn't trying, coupled with being in the middle of 30 day complete abstinence (not recommended!), I told her that I was out of fuel and could no longer promise to try to be faithful. I reached out to other women and became physical with one.
I found the experience to be unwholesome and I don't want it anymore. I want my family back and a wholesome life to go with it.
I'm hoping to high heaven that by making this unilateral decision, that my W will eventually feel safe enough to offer what I've so badly needed through the years. At least I'm doing all I can.

Sarah, I don't think JD meant to offend you.... I think that he meant that the nuances of a boyfriend having a 2 week or 3 week emotional relationship can be interpreted differently than an actual spouse in a long term marriage having one or more physical relationships that probably lasted more than 3 weeks. Your boyfriend also willingly left his 3 week long emotional A. For CS, aside from rebuilding many of us are mourning the loss of a relationship that, even though was wrong, was important to us or meant something.

I am certain that you experienced the sting of betrayal and can relate; sometimes for those of us married 15-20+ years with the house, the kids, the college education, the dogs, the cars, the in laws, etc....It can be more like the kick in the face betrayal in addition to a loss of 'what was' and that might be as benign as looking at it as an extracurricular activity or with someone that you truly loved.

I'm glad you are learning a lot from us and reading a lot. Reading has helped me immensely and I've also read a lot in the 'BS board' that has helped me move forward. But in fairness, I think that is all he meant. We are all in this sandbox together trying to heal and move forward. And like someone said recently, at the end of the day we are all just arm chair psychologists taking some things as 'aha' moments and taking others as a grain of salt.