Cheaters and Betrayeds Helping Each Other Community Group
This is a group where cheaters and betrayeds can come to try to help each other better understand infidelity from the perspective of the other side because understanding can often lead to healing. Members can ask each other questions, share experiences, and provide insights and opinions without judgments or animosity. If you have a chip on your shoulder, an axe to grind,...
I've been "chewing" on something for a couple of days now. I know most of the CSs know what they are doing is wrong, even the ones in the middle of an existing affair seem to admit that. At least with the idea of, "...so no need to tell me I'm doing something bad, I already know that and it won't be helpful."
But in one fashion or another, that fact appears to be overridden by a feeling of love or passionate emotional attachment that seems to justify or nullify the wrongness of what is being done. Sort of a, "I can't help myself." I know in the midst of Gabi's As she felt like she couldn't avoid it. She didn't want to hurt me, but she did anyway. She knew it was wrong, yet couldn't bring herself to end it. And I see a lot of CSs in the same boat.
So I was asking myself why the violation of vows and treating another person, in this case one's spouse, gets trumped by this feeling of "love"? (Translated: infatuation) Or even one's own well being? One CS posted yesterday on CA, I believe, that they know their OM will hurt them again...but she loved him. To quote Spock, that is highly illogical.
It dawned on me where else you see this type of behavior. Addiction. One doesn't even have to become an addict to experience an addictive behavior. Addicts are created by long-term submission to an addiction. But anything that can cause a person to abandon reason for the "love" of something can be an addictive stimulus/response loop that, if it goes on long enough, can create an addict.
For instance, there is a gambling addiction, where someone will put as risk their life savings, kids college savings, mortgage, for their love of gambling. There are all sorts of drugs and alcohol where a person is willing to risk their careers, family, financial ruin, for the love of that substance.
In any addiction, it is the overwhelming desire for how someone or something is making you feel, that causes one to move that desire to the top of the decision hierarchy, for which nothing else can trump. So no matter how wrong it is, the feeling of love, the desire to feel a certain way, overrides any consideration for the harm a person is doing to themselves, their spouse, or their kids.
Not all CSs or APs feel what they are doing is wrong, at least they've convinced themselves of that on some level. Some are so narcissistic, or due to values formed growing up, see sex and intimacy outside of marriage as okay, maybe even their right. That's a different set of issues.
But for the many CSs and APs who who are so obsessed with their AP that they can't stop thinking about them, find themselves willing to risk their marriage and healthy family for the kids on satisfying this desire, have you ever thought about the fact that this is an addictive behavior and sought help to treat it as such?
It seems there are two main barriers to doing so.
1. Not acknowledging the addictive nature of the feeling they receive from their AP, even though the facts are staring them in the face: previous strongly held values are discarded in favor of obtaining this feeling. Classic signs of an addiction, right out of the textbook.
2. Not seeking out and applying addictive treatments to the situation, for a number of reasons, but a common one is because their spouse doesn't know and to get serious help would require telling. So often they are "going it alone," and few are those who can defeat their own addiction by sheer will power. It can happen, but rarely are root causes dealt with in the process. But usually, that method is about as effective as an alcoholic sitting in a bar, doing their best not to take a drink.
So I'm beginning to think when it comes to these situations, like Gabi was in, while not clinically an addict, perhaps, the best chance of dealing with this is an AA style treatment not only to get things back in order, but to prevent one from becoming an addict through long-term addictive behaviors.
And at least, if one hears love being given as the reason to cheat, put at risk one's marriage and children, it should be a clear signal this is an addictive behavior, and acknowledge that reality. As they say, the first step to healing is admitting you need it and can't help yourself.
Thoughts?
But in one fashion or another, that fact appears to be overridden by a feeling of love or passionate emotional attachment that seems to justify or nullify the wrongness of what is being done. Sort of a, "I can't help myself." I know in the midst of Gabi's As she felt like she couldn't avoid it. She didn't want to hurt me, but she did anyway. She knew it was wrong, yet couldn't bring herself to end it. And I see a lot of CSs in the same boat.
So I was asking myself why the violation of vows and treating another person, in this case one's spouse, gets trumped by this feeling of "love"? (Translated: infatuation) Or even one's own well being? One CS posted yesterday on CA, I believe, that they know their OM will hurt them again...but she loved him. To quote Spock, that is highly illogical.
It dawned on me where else you see this type of behavior. Addiction. One doesn't even have to become an addict to experience an addictive behavior. Addicts are created by long-term submission to an addiction. But anything that can cause a person to abandon reason for the "love" of something can be an addictive stimulus/response loop that, if it goes on long enough, can create an addict.
For instance, there is a gambling addiction, where someone will put as risk their life savings, kids college savings, mortgage, for their love of gambling. There are all sorts of drugs and alcohol where a person is willing to risk their careers, family, financial ruin, for the love of that substance.
In any addiction, it is the overwhelming desire for how someone or something is making you feel, that causes one to move that desire to the top of the decision hierarchy, for which nothing else can trump. So no matter how wrong it is, the feeling of love, the desire to feel a certain way, overrides any consideration for the harm a person is doing to themselves, their spouse, or their kids.
Not all CSs or APs feel what they are doing is wrong, at least they've convinced themselves of that on some level. Some are so narcissistic, or due to values formed growing up, see sex and intimacy outside of marriage as okay, maybe even their right. That's a different set of issues.
But for the many CSs and APs who who are so obsessed with their AP that they can't stop thinking about them, find themselves willing to risk their marriage and healthy family for the kids on satisfying this desire, have you ever thought about the fact that this is an addictive behavior and sought help to treat it as such?
It seems there are two main barriers to doing so.
1. Not acknowledging the addictive nature of the feeling they receive from their AP, even though the facts are staring them in the face: previous strongly held values are discarded in favor of obtaining this feeling. Classic signs of an addiction, right out of the textbook.
2. Not seeking out and applying addictive treatments to the situation, for a number of reasons, but a common one is because their spouse doesn't know and to get serious help would require telling. So often they are "going it alone," and few are those who can defeat their own addiction by sheer will power. It can happen, but rarely are root causes dealt with in the process. But usually, that method is about as effective as an alcoholic sitting in a bar, doing their best not to take a drink.
So I'm beginning to think when it comes to these situations, like Gabi was in, while not clinically an addict, perhaps, the best chance of dealing with this is an AA style treatment not only to get things back in order, but to prevent one from becoming an addict through long-term addictive behaviors.
And at least, if one hears love being given as the reason to cheat, put at risk one's marriage and children, it should be a clear signal this is an addictive behavior, and acknowledge that reality. As they say, the first step to healing is admitting you need it and can't help yourself.
Thoughts?
Sometimes I wonder if you're listening.
Going, you said, among other things: "When in the midst of the addictive behavior, you can't deal with the underlying issues driving the addiction because the psychological and physiological addiction is too strong and demands all of the attention a person can give."
This is in part what I was driving at. I guess what type of intervention or action needs to take place for someone deep in the fog to realize they're in one and need help to get out? And if a CS realized in the midst of it, that they are responding to an addictive feeling, not the person themselves, would they have the where with all to begin treating this as an addictive response, i.e., not real, rather than a valid form of love...that love for someone should not justify hurting others in the process.
Let me give an example using Gabi's experience. When Gabi met the first OM, she thought he was cute, and she enjoyed his flirting attention. Ever since she'd lost weight, she enjoyed the attention of other men. But she considered it innocent fun. She had no thoughts of cheating on me with anyone. In actuality, she didn't believe anyone would seriously want here. They had to be playing a "fun game" with her. When OM#1 started text-flirting with her after he got her number, she enjoyed that too. Even told me about it, and I told her guys don't play around with flirting. He's flirting because he wants sex, and you are leading me on. True to historical trends, she didn't believe me. At least that is what she was telling herself, that I was wrong, the guy was just playing an innocent game with her.
So when he started sexting shortly thereafter, it surprised her. And triggered an obsession over the *feeling* he gave her. At that point, her personality changed, her interest changed, her desire for sex with me changed (more frequently), her taste in music changed, she no longer required much sleep when before she'd barely keep her eyes open. All classic signs of someone becoming addicted to a drug.
But the thing that baffled me for so long was she knew this guy didn't care one wit about her, only wanted sex, didn't want to get to know her, she'd just be another conquest to him, another notch on his gun, and yet she was totally taken by him, couldn't stop thinking about him, fantasized what life would be like with him, wanted sex with him even as she told him, no, we can't do that, until he got her to give him a BJ on his last day there...what he'd always asked her for.
I could actually make some sense out of OM#2, he actually fell in love with her and acted like he cared about her, in his own selfish way. But her attraction to OM#1 made no sense whatsoever. I knew there was an addictive element to it, and yet, it still made no sense.
Until I realized she didn't fall in love with him as a person...she fell in love with the *feelings* he was giving her. She attached those feelings to him as a person only because he was the one giving them to her. But what she discovered a couple months after he'd left, is that she didn't need him to get those feelings. The attention of any man would do. Which is what attracted her to online sex chats, it fed her craving for sexual attention.
So I think it is for most CSs, not all, in an affair, they are experiencing a "high" from the feelings, whatever they are, and it gets translated as love for a specific individual, when often it isn't about loving the person as much as being addicted to the feelings he/she gives. The AP simply serves the role of the "pusher" for the infatuation drug.
It took Gabi almost a year of detox to withdraw from those feelings and return to normal. Her personal interest have permanently changed (thank goodness, I could never get into reality TV shows that much) but they are no longer what they were in the As. Her taste in music has reverted. She needs more sleep. Her libido died off, not totally, but not like it was before as a driving force that caused her to want it as often as possible, no matter the costs in sleep. She can fall asleep at the computer again, instead of readily staying up until 2 am sex chatting with no hint of trouble keeping her eyes open. Her personality is much more "normal" now. She's not so focused on whether guys notice her or not.
I think she dealt with this through the way many people treat addictive behaviors. She was also motivated to do this right because she didn't want to lose me, and knew whether that happened or not was on her shoulders. So she had a 100% commitment, do whatever it takes to make this work, attitude, no matter what she internally felt about the OMs.
But I've often wondered if I'd caught her after OM#1, before the sex chatting and OM#2 happened, if she would have been so easily shaken out of her "fog" thinking long enough to become that committed or not, and the rest would have never happened? Or, would her desire to experience sex with another man be so strong that she felt she'd missed out on with OM#1, that the addictive nature of that would have prevented her from effectively withdrawing from that voice in her head saying, "You've been deprived of this all your life...you HAVE to have this experience. You'll miss out if you don't get it!" And the rest would have happened anyway, and I'd had two ddays instead of one.
Guess I'll never know. But all this has put me on a path to wondering if and how one can break through that fog/addictive state of thinking to get them to see what they are losing and doing to themselves and those they love long enough to commit to ending it?
My guess is, based on my own dealings with behaviors that I had trouble stopping, it was only when I felt I wanted to stop bad enough, and came to a point of saying, "I don't care how much my body demands I fulfill this desire, I do not want it anymore." And mean it with no lingering doubts in one's mind. Then sticking to it, even if you fall down, to make it a reality. I think this is pretty much what Gabi did. It became important enough to her that she became dead set that she absolutely had to conquer this and never let it happen again, at all costs.
" they are experiencing a "high" from the feelings, whatever they are, and it gets translated as love for a specific individual, when often it isn't about loving the person as much as being addicted to the feelings he/she gives. The AP simply serves the role of the "pusher" for the infatuation drug."
"I don't care how much my body demands I fulfill this desire, I do not want it anymore." And mean it with no lingering doubts in one's mind. Then sticking to it, even if you fall down, to make it a reality.
Obviously, impono, shaving your head won't work as well for you as it did for me. But you have to find that level of sobriety in order to move forward. That's might even mean living without the approval of you wife. If all of your approval and affirmation is from external sources you will always be hooked. You've gotten down to where the only approved source is your wife and she's afraid that what she can give won't be enough. It seems like the hope is that she can be your one and only drug. It can't work that way.
Until it comes from within you, you will always be threatened by the possibility of your supplier walking away and leaving you jonesing. Then that person has so much power over you that you will say anything, do anything to keep that person from leaving, even if that means promising to never go to where you can find real sobriety.
Bottom line, every person is either part of the problem or part of the solution.
The only route for him to break out of that is to no longer "need" that attention. Where I would adjust what Fiber said is as follows.
One, you can't hold impono back from becoming sober. You can certainly discourage him by sending signals you don't think it will happen, you can trash every attempt by him to deal with this, which seems to be what is happening. But you can't stop him from becoming sober. You're not in a place to offer him that support. Which is why I suggested his support needs to come from another source, not you. Like an SAA group or something similar. They are willing to face failure with him, you are not.
While you may not be part of the problem as far as his decision to cheat or not goes, you can be part of the solution. As a matter of fact, to be a partner with him, you need to be. You're problem is in the past year, if I'm recalling correctly, you've been stuck in ICU with this, not finding a way to move forward. Until you get out of ICU, it will be hard for you to offer much in the way of support.
I mentioned two apparent options in the other thread: divorce or living with not being able to trust him and the resulting complications. There is a third way for you, but not an easy one. Coming to the point of being willing to take the risk of him failing to remain sober, to help him get there. Not all BSs can or should do that. But if you determine he is committed enough, you could open yourself up for hurt again to go through this with him.
Not being in your shoes, I don't know if it is now, or ever will be a valid option for you. But it is a self-sacrificing option that could enable him to succeed. But it is an option that would prove most difficult for most BSs. There are few that would take it. It is not an easy road, due to the fear, almost expectation he will likely fall again and again until he succeeds. But if he succeeds, the reward could be big, knowing you had a hand in the salvation of someone's life. That's where love for him comes in. Agape love would provide the basis for that decision, as well as his willingness and commitment to do all he could to make this happen.
I don't think anyone would fault you for not going there, if you gave up. You'd have to take on an attitude that would be supportive instead of negative all the time, and you may not be in a place where you can do that yet. But perhaps you could at some point. God's been known to do a number on us, and change our perspective.
I think it is equally true she could simply be unable to move forward because there are no good choices for her, and she's reluctant to take a step, and not happy about the situation she's been forced into. Not saying she should stay there, but is a real dynamic that many BSs face. Some find a way to move past it, others don't, based on different circumstances. We could postulate all sorts of theories as to what is going on, but none of us really know. Certainly not enough to state what each person's motivations are instead of might be.
Its not so much about keeping the peace, though that is a good goal, but about keeping things real. You might be right, but you could easily be wrong too. Saying what she intends or what her motives are is, IMO, a best guess stated as reality. It is best to state them as "this is how it looks to me" concepts.
Unfortunately, Satan is so good at telling half truths that's it's hard for a man, so taken by his earthly nature, to discern which affirmation is coming from the Holy Spirit within and which is tossed in by Satan from the outside.
words in my mouth I'm more inclined toward an equally accusatory tone. One gets as good as one gives.
It is my opinion, based on statements She had made which are similar to those of CS about their AP (ie it hurtsso much but I can't let go), that this couple is co-addicted. And the buzz wore off a while back so they're chasing.