A co-worker from 20 years back had an 'open' marriage, however he had a job, she didn't. She cooked, cleaned house, provided care for the kids, he didn't. He had friends and activities outside the home, she didn't.

When she finally exercised her end of the 'open' marriage he was PISSED and hurt. Said it was because it was with one of his friends...

Go figure.

My marriage is in many ways very similar to what was described by JASG...I cook, clean, etc. etc...he doesn't.
He has friends and activities outside home, I don't.
The major differences between my marriage and what you described are a non open relationship and I always worked a full time job to help support the family.

Throughout the years I gave up a lot of things that I enjoyed doing in order to support my family's needs. It was either time for myself or for them.

In a way this was a mistake because for two decades I literally have been neglecting my own needs. With all this I also may be considered one of those "bitchy wives" since I complain frequently about the way my life turned to be.
Don't get me wrong, I know I am to blame because I allowed this to happen but so did my husband.

Even though we have a lot going on in our marriage (please note we almost got divorced 9 years ago due to his affairs) I still don't see men as "hounds". Every relationship has ups and downs and many times they brake. The way men may talk about their wives or girlfriends may not be pleasant in some cases, but on the other hand, how many times some women also say bad stuff about their husbands and boyfriends?
It looks to me that we cannot always go by "one size fits all".

Remarkable, meaning you'd think they were upstanding committed people if you hadn't be privy to their candid talk? Are you nervous about your ability to read someone, and tell if they have it in them to be loyal? I feel like I could tell... but I'm not sure :/

In the warehouse, the quote from JASG would have gone over something like this. "So I told her....
'non-sexual physical intimacy seems to have a gentleness and tenderness that allows me to 'feel' and be aware of the person's inner self, their true self. I really can't find the words to do it justice..."

And Jeff would have replied, " Oh dude, you got laid!" and JASG would have said, "Ya, works every time, she just rolled back with her legs cocked open." I am not even kidding. I can't make this stuff up, the stuff they would say was just too much to even believe.
That's a big part of why I changed careers. The old one paid allot more, but it was too rough for me. I had to put on a suit of armor every day just to be in it. I tried to laugh it off as much as I could, and I did, but really, it has changed how I feel about men. And Sweet, yes, I don't believe a word they say. I know I will have to work on it, but it's like the link that JASG shared about beliefs. After all these years I have some seriously negative beliefs about men, and their motives. It has colored the lens through which I view the world.

Hounds are better than some men. They at least have a modicum of loyalty. You know, I am in recovery and it never ceases to amaze me that men who are engaged, married, have a SO...whatever, feel its just fine to hit on other women...flirt...offer up their number and whatever else. Some men (and women) are just shit heads and they wouldn't know how to be emotionally and physically committed to who they were with if it hit them upside the head.

I said this to someone on there the other day and I will say it again; The grass isn't always greener, but it will always look greener to those who are seeking what they need outside of themselves, instead of looking inside where it all starts and it all ends in reality.

And really, its all about the ego. Getting that stroke on from another. The need to feel validated. That need for attention they may not be getting at the home base. SMH.

AH, here is a copy of something my ex-emailed me several years ago. It says what you just did.

"Thats one of the things I miss most about working at CES. Being with you was the best but next to that was that having the other girls in the office to chat with and to be complemented by and maybe even admired, made me a more complete man.

That stuff makes me feel better about myself. When I feel better about myself it makes us feel better together. I havent ever worked at a job where I didnt want to be desired in some way. Platonic? Absolutely.

What makes it so hard now is that there arent a lot of girls working here. When one excludes you, the others follow the lead.



I cant imagine that you would want to work in an office with all girls. I hate working with an all man crew.

To point of that email from your ex, Whipple - I was that person to an extent, and didn't even realize it. Through a combo of childhood experiences, upbringing, shame, guilt, etc, I was naive, easily swayed by praise, and internalized that my worth was sexually based. While to look at me you might not guess it, I seemed professional, self assured, well-dressed, I felt better (superficially) when I got attention from men. It may boost the ego temporarily, yet it's a pattern that can do nothing but further eat away at one's self worth. It's a tough thing for anyone to recognize, especially when it is validated by society and people around them. And once it's recognized, it takes some serious self reflection that is just not comfortable at all to a lot of people. It probably took years of therapy, not even focused on this issue in particular, to see patterns and build up my self worth. It was then that I realized there was no longer a subtle flirtation behind how I would look at men and talk to them. And I felt more confident in graciously steering the convo if they bring it in that direction. I found I had more comfort in being interesting in conversations with women. I feel like the person I always was inside, but didn't have the tools to shine. I wish to God that it didn't take me this long to figure it out. I am now in that stage of introspection, of trying not to blame my upbringing or play "what if" with my past.

I had a guy i dated recently who after i broke it off with him would want to text me about his sexcapades, why he thought i wanted to hear any of that was beyond me but i was disgusted nonetheless, even thought he didn't understand why I was, i said, you have two daughters who live with you full time, have some respect for them if not yourself!

Another thing I learned which actually still makes me sick to think about is that my ex husband seemed to think it was funny (?) to tell my oldest son all the women and affairs he had during our marriage. I dont understand this and why my son would even listen to it, I don't know which one is sicker, the one saying it or the one listening to it.

*like* #7

The majority of both genders have a need to feel accepted by society or wanted by someone. That they thrive on compliments, smooth talk, and charm cus it fills something inside of them that they need in order to feel like they are "liked" or "loved". I believe that could be a good reason why most relationships dont last. In the beginning its usually all sweet talk, compliments, etc. After awhile, that stops and thus there are people who feel that because of that, that their partner must not be interested anymore. So when someone else gives them a compliment, shows attention, etc. people are quick to jump cus they got that "good feeling" inside just because of a "sweet" comment. Its an immediate, but unfortunately, a temporary fix, as many, like yourself sweeterie have found. Whats cool is that you acknowledge your own behavior and are making strides to take care of you. Props...

As for the boys club, we have the same thing where I work. Its an ego driven environment where I spend most of my days and there is always someone trying to "one up" the next guy with who they "tagged". I don't know how many times my Team Lead, yes "Team Lead" had showed me pictures of nekked women he had been with during our trip on his phone. I usually just smile and walk away. When I go out for dinner or lunch with someone, or they see someone give me their number, they try to make their comments and get me to bite, but I dont get in to the conversations.

So, I would agree that there are men and women, married, dating, whatever, that engage in conversations like this. I am not a prude altho I have been told my standards are too high sometimes because I may not use or like certain words or conversations geared towards disrespecting someone in a sexual nature, but to me, its about respecting others trust, privacy and whatnot. Society as a whole may find things like that as acceptable, and people may use that as a reason to engage is this kind of talk, but that doesn't mean if you don't care for it that one "has to" engage in talk. Many feel they "have to" in order to be part of the group. I believe your more legit tho if you stand by your beliefs regardless.

i know right , seashell, like you would really want to know.

Did the warehouse guys really use stuff like "'non-sexual physical intimacy seems to have a gentleness and tenderness that allows me to 'feel' and be aware of the person's inner self, their true self. I really can't find the words to do it justice..." to get over?

I wouldn't have thought they'd take that tack. I thought it would be more like flattery based on looks, body, sexual alure/desireability or something along those lines.

But I can imagine the 'tail' end of the discussion being like you described it! Oops!

I have seen this stuff my whole life. There are men who do not participate in it as others have said in this post, but then there are many which do this all day. I see it as degrading. The guys who participate in it... also make me angry. There are varying degrees, something like "she's cute" all the way to the over the top stuff and sharing stories of others' activities/infidelities.

I am discouraged from many people because of this kind of dialogue.

The guys who don't participate indimidate them anyways (at least I do >:D) because they know it's shameful.

Sweetire, I can relate as well. I have to say that I learned allot from my ex. Working around men, I got allot of attention, it does superficially fill your cup . He was one of the guys I worked around although he was an engineer not a warehouse guy. I guess thats why he shared that with me, he thought I would understand. It was so painful to read and to be in a relationship with someone who so openly flirted with the girls in the office. Sometimes you have to be at the receiving end of behavior to know how destructive it is. It doesn't fill your cup to have someone who hits on everything that walks flirt with you. I tried to tell him, why should I feel special about the way you talk to me, if thats how you talk to all the girls. His answer was he didn't sleep with the other girls. I have to say, talking about all of this has brought on some tears for me today. Yet another layer in the onion being peeled away. I hope that anyone who reads this thread and sees themselves relating to the e-m hears what is going on in this thread. Flirting may fill your cup for a moment, but it so disrespects the person you are suppose to love. While you are filling your cup with the attention, the person you are suppose to love is having there cup emptied and they are humiliated.

"It doesn't fill your cup to have someone who hits on everything that walks flirt with you. I tried to tell him, why should I feel special about the way you talk to me, if thats how you talk to all the girls."

How can one feel special when this happens? too bad he didn't get it. Some people dont get what is said between two people means something, well at least to one in many cases. Im sorry.

Your right JASG they would not have used those words. Thats why I give you a some credit, what you wrote and what you read and are studying. They would laugh and think you were working an angle, but they would really be like taking notes....."Wow, let me write that down, I want to use that." But no, they would never take the time to study or read about how to be more true to who they really are. You get some brownie points. I need to see that you know. I need to see that not all men a horrible. I cannot be this jaded.....but today, I am jaded.