The only reason I can come up with for that Mary is because of my bipolar. This spiraled me into a four month long period of psychotic depression where I had to struggle daily just to stay alive. I quit eating or doing anything else that I enjoyed because I basically thought I wasn't worthy of the life that God had given me. I was a sick woman for a long time and am just now getting my feet back under me good. I have decided that I am going to church tomorrow night. Not to the one that I am a member of and surely not to the one of the offending pastor, but to one that God has been calling me to for the last couple of years now. I am actually excited about what lies in store for me through Him for the first time in a long time. Hugs to you.

i hope you find the comfort you request dear friend.

Thanks Jamie. You're a gem!!

The pastor was not following the example of Jesus. What did Jesus do, when he encountered someone behaving oddly? Did he condemn them for being sinful? No. Did he blame their condition on their sins? No. All he did was to heal them, cast out whatever demon was there, without ever blaming any of those who suffered. In fact, Jesus had unkind words for only one group of people. The self-righteous arrogant "holier than thou" types, the Religious Right of his time. Guys like this "pastor".

Everyone else, Jesus treated with love and respect, with kindness. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, comforted the broken-hearted, and cast out demons. He didn't tell people, "Oh, it's your sins that caused this, so tough luck, bubbeleh".

Yes, we do face a spiritual warfare of sorts. I don't know whether there's Satan and God struggling for our souls, but we are always faced with ignorance, intolerance, and arrogance. This "pastor" said, in effect, that it was your fault that you had bipolar. Some sin in your life caused or permitted it. Well, lots of others say much the same thing, except they don't call it sin. They call it "weakness", or "laziness", or "dishonesty" or whatever. If only we tried harder, if only we would snap out of it, if only we would be honest with ourselves, it would all go away. Same story, different words.

The common thread is, "Blame the victim:. There are many advantages to blaming the victim. For one thing, you don't have to do anything for them. They brought it on themselves; if they *really* wanted to get better, they could. So no action is required, no compassion, etc. For another thing, if it's the victim's fault, then you can only get sick if you have the victim's flaws, their weakness or lack of control or whatever. This gives the blamer a sense of control, of safety from the illness. To admit that it's a misfortune that could affect anyone is to admit to being vulnerable to it yourself. That's too scary for lots of people.

Finally, remember what it says in Matthew 7:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

This "pastor" will be judged under the same harsh light he judged you. That's OK, as long as he's righteous.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: " - Rom. 3:10

Oops...

Being a pagan helps because mainly our spirituality doesn't judge and simply asks that we act like moral, reasonable human beings and treat others with respect and kindness. That we take a minute to consider the impact of our thoughts, words, and actions on others and think about kharma (ours is 3 times!). But the goddess is in everything, all around us, and asks for nothing from us but the love she has to give, and to give her our love in return. There is no such thing as "heaven" or "hell", the closest we have is the "summerlands" where you go at the end of your own spiritual journey. In the meantime, you learn as much of your own personal lesson as you can, then come back to keep learning until you've finally figured out what your particular purpose is. Slometimes learning parts of that lesson is hard; I certainly doubt I would have planned to put bp in my particular curriculum, but there must be something I need to know, to understand, that will help me develop as a human being, help me evolve to the next level. Because my faith is so different from Christianity, warfare of any kind is a very painful topic for us. Intentional pain and suffering are so anti what we believe in. Tolerance and understanding are how we try to exist with other religions. We understand persecution (the Inquisition), but looking back, so should Christians, the Romans certainly didn't accept them. There are so many faiths intersecting this time of year, maybe it would be better to concentrate on the positive aspects of all of our beliefs, the ones that link us together, like love, kindness, and generosity towards those less fortunate, than the parts that cause negative emotions. And also remember that, even without a clear spiritual foundation, anyone can share these feelings and try sometimes to put away the anger and cynicism so many are plagued by in these troubled times.

Zany, I have been there in that kind of hurt and pain I still struggle at times just not that intense. I have heard that stuff from preachers and teachers over and over and went through some of the same thoughts and emotions. My journey is a long story. Some of it though was also from being around other Christians who had wackier beliefs than I did but me being vulnerable, weak(as in a tender conscience, faith, being easily manipulated, struggling with the things of life, illness etc,) I was easy prey. I finally went back to the faith I was raised in (the Catholic Church) where I didn't find these kinds of things being taught although I am sure there are some that have their prejudices about it. It's somewhere in every church. Pope Paul made a statement that the mentally ill bear the image of Christ and are to be treated with dignity and their gifts utilized in the church as part of the Body of Christ. No mention of demon possession. There are prayers said at Mass on occasion for the mentally ill and their families as well for those struggling with other diseases and illnesses.

Take comfort that this pastor will be held accountable for his words to you one day as we all are. I know this verse talks about little children but we are Gods children so I believe it applies to us too "These little ones believe in me. It would be best for the person who causes one of them to lose faith to be drowned in the sea with a large stone hung around his neck. an another verse Let us not, therefore, judge one another any more; but judge this rather: that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

These are just personal opinions of mine but I do believe there is a spiritual war going on and I think Satan loves when he can use others to make us stumble but you'll find that some don't even need the help of Satan to do this to another person. I do believe man has free will. If we didn't we would all be robots but we are given choices. If God stopped every bad thing from happening then this would be heaven. I think that Satan can oppress (not possess) a Christian when they are down or even when ski high to exploit the situation for his benefit. That roaring lion just waiting to devour. I do however think to myself that if it were always demons causing all this then how come medication makes them flee? LOL. (man, I just noticed I do a lot of thinking) It's a mixed bag heredity, genetics, environmental, others sins against us etc. but that also doesn't mean we never sin because we have a mental illness or bear no responsibility for the things we sometimes do and the consequences.

It is still a struggle for me when I look back to determine if some of my experiences were spiritually based or due to this illness. Some were and some weren't I am still sometimes weak in faith, doubt and get scared about it. Is this real? is this God speaking to me (not audibly) but through prayer, devotions, circumstances, other people. I read those words let not your heart be troubled. Do not fear. It's not always easy especially when the intrusive thoughts come but if you were possessed or had demons you wouldn't be able to pray and read the bible as you do. I have to be reminded every day that in my struggles His grace is sufficient. God still used people with mental illnesses and disorders for great things. like St Theresa of Lisieux, St Liguori, St Ignatius of Loyola. Other's such as John Bunyan and probably many more.

A pastors job and a Christians job is to build one another up in faith, in love not tear down, to have compassion and encouragement for the weak, the timid, the fearful. Find another church, visit, make an appointment to meet the pastor. Ask him what his views are on mental illness. You don't have to tell them you have one if you don't want too but maybe that you have a passion for those who do. if you get the response you have gotten in the past, if you don't find compassion then keep looking. It sounds like and think it's wonderful you are determined not to let his words win and keep you away from Him that loves you. I know I have been long winded here but like I said I'm talking to myself too. :-)

Hi Chellie, I have been waiting to reply to this post that I glanced at yesterday morning--but I have had two intensly busy days at work--you know, as a nurse. your post has been on my mind, or at least in the back of it all this time.

I have been a christian since I was 18. I have found my faith in Christ to be a positive, life changing experience. Helped me with with so much...call me weak because I often am, but I could not have made it in this life without Jesus. I really don't think I could work at my job without faith in God. Faith has helped me cope with my patient's deaths. It gives me hope that man will find a cure for terrible diseases... Faith may have tempered...moderated my bipolar at times...but, BUT i am still mentally ill. There is no sin in any illness. That is my firm belief.

I do believe in good and evil, in healing--especialy for physical illness--even spontaneous remission for those who "lack" faith. I have been a nurse too many years and seen too many things no to believe. However with mental illness, much like diabetes, or other chronic illness...it is important to monitor, take care of yourself and take meds. The pastor was way ignorant, uninformed and living in the middle ages. Ok. enough about him. Forgive him if you can, forget about him...move on. You have faith so I know you will find the strength and ability to walki away from that.

I have been through "deliverance" experiences...you want a good laugh--for my rampant promiscuity and serious depression. ha ha ha. Did they damage me?--yes and no. Maybe a temporary fix...but did not allow me to be in control in dealing with a serious problem--the root cause, i think, the BP. What has damaged me even more is a legalistic rigid view of the Bible with an angry pastor who beats the sheep into submission. Walk, do not run from such a place.


I do believe in good and evil. Much evil in the world--war, abuse of children, abuse in the church, violence, hate, bigotry. I pray a lot, especially for those who suffer any injustice or are ill. I also believe in spiritual warfare...to battle ingrattitude, bitterness, unforgiveness...but are you depressed or have cancer???. Go seeketh the doctor and get those nuerotransmitters in ballance!!

A side note--inner healing combined with therapy--can be very helpful. Healing for past memories and wounds that haunt and contiue to effect our emotions and lives...that is real. I know and have experienced this. It works and is not phoney if done by a skilled minister--either lay or ordained.

ZanyBeeper, what I've seen of you on the boards is a considerate, thoughtful, positive, encouraging, caring, supportive person. You bring positivity and goodness here.
Whatever fight you went through, I'd say goodness WON, because that's all you project.
As for the struggle we have with ourselves, we all do struggle with ourselves and naturally we questions what's right...ultimately it's our behaviour and our actions (here, it's our words) that have sway.
Thanks for your presence.

Everyone needs to stop thinking in terms of "God" and "the Devil" like they are two guys playing a game of chess for your soul.

The church is a business that sells promises that they have no authority to keep, enforce, or guarantee

Heaven and Hell are on earth, and they are states of mind

Be happy with yourself, look inside your own soul for serenity, and you will surely find more than you could ever hope to imagine.

I am already in Heaven. What happens when you die in Heaven? I guess I'll find out eventually.

There is spiritual war. Angels vs demons type deal but mental illness is real. I know you were attached to your church. I used to be attached to my own. Our "sins" didnt bring this upon us. We were born with it just like a child might be born with downs syndrom.

I have a hard time with the Bible and Christianity because there is such an emphasis on good and evil. I have also been through such terrible things from the incest and bipolar that I have a very difficult time believing in God at all. I am at the point in my life that I don't believe in divine intervention at all. However, I do believe there is a part of me that wants the best for me, be it a spirit or soul, or maybe it is just a mass of neurons. I try to get in touch with that part of myself. It helps with dealing with some of my addictions and my bipolar.

I to believe in God completely and in good and evil
The church is run by people with their own hang ups and opinions Sounds like the pastor has been hanging out with Tom Cruise
God is love!

Hey Chelle, man, sorry you had to go through that. Urg.

Ok, bipolar is real. It is as real as kidney or heart disease. We deal with a neurochemical disorder. That pastor was wrong and should be shamed. He was not being a good shepherd, indeed his actions were very un-Christian.

Here's a scientific article about how differences between the brains of normal and mentally ill patients shows up on MRI and other scans.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2008/imaging-identifies-brain-regions-and-chemicals-underlying-mood-disorders-may-lead-to-better-treatments.shtml

Here's an article about how SPECT scans show excessive inflamatory activity around the temporal and frontal lobes of our brain, responsible for emotional and executive function.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/redefining-stress/200808/redefining-bipolar-and-new-hope

Also, regarding 'believing' in science, well, that's a distraction put up by unscrupulous people. Science is a disciplined method for expanding human knowledge through research and experimentation.

That's it. Nothing mystical or cultish or anything. The scientific method, the guidelines for how to actually do science, is simple. Scientists make observations to explain natural events in a way that can be reproduced and retested by other scientists.

i believ that there is a higher war being fought, im not christain but i do belive that there is good and evil and thingss that simply are in this universe, and that the only thing that rules us all is kharma and dhrama its sounds out there bbut its done me a wonder of food