Anxiety Support Group
Anxiety is a physical condition marked by intense and persistent feelings of distress, fear, angst or dread. General anxiety caused by routine day-to-day stresses usually passes quickly and is experienced by almost everyone at one time or another. However, such feelings that linger over time and are very difficult to cope with, and which lack a clear cause, may indicate...
A little about me:
I'm a single man at 30 years of age. I take care of myself, I make decent money, I'm creative, musical, articulate, intelligent, passionate, funny, and have plans for my future. I've lived in the same city for 8 years and am building a career for myself. I suffer from bipolar disorder, but have stabilized over the last 3 years.
I've been out of the dating scene for three years to the day. Every day, I've been working on myself to become a better and more accurate version of who I really am and want to be. After months of exercise, healthy eating and lifestyle improvements, I'm ready to start putting myself out there again. But because my lifestyle grants little time for social outings, I've decided to try online dating. I tried it five years ago but was suffering from major depressive disorder and wasn't very marketable, you know, hating the world and all.
So this time I took the time to research online dating to understand the changes in online dating throughout the last 5 years - best methods for success, catchy formats for profiles, best types of pictures to post, simple and successful formats that garner responses after the first message, the ratio of men to women, the most effective sites, etc.
Cut to six weeks after no success, a wave of insecurity has crashed over me - a mixture of emotions circling throughout my mind during the day, including frustration, confusion, regret, sadness, anger, hope, fear, loneliness, and doubt.
This second failed attempt at online dating isn't the source of these feelings but it is the spark that has reignited the feelings that I've suppressed or "managed" for the last three years.
I feel as though I can't speak without fear of judgement from family, coworkers or even strangers. Take note that I didn't mention friends because truthfully, I have none of any significance.
I look at all of the people in my life and see them happy with their relationships, whether it is marriage or friendship. That source of happiness doesn't exist for me, with the exception of family. Unfortunately, a sense of community happens to be one of the most necessary things in a person's life to remain stable.
But even my family judges me. I constantly receive feedback from every one of them about how there are things I should have done differently or how I should be more open minded. Now I don't take for granted that in between those bits of feedback, I do receive compliments of progress and the evolution of my personality and maturity. But it's hard to focus on the compliments when they are sandwiched between what I perceive as constructive criticism mixed with an unspoken layer of disappointment.
I thought I was making progress with my insecurities. When writing my bio for the online dating sites, I felt as though it was the truest and most accurate representation of myself that has ever been posted throughout my history with online dating. My confidence was significantly boosted after receiving positive feedback about my bio from my family and coworkers.
My self-worth was elevated and I felt primed to try online dating again. So I joined Tinder, OkCupid, Match, Plenty of Fish, and Coffee Meets Bagel. I wanted to cast a wide net.
After the first two weeks went by without results, I was a bit confused, but carried on.
Then the third week went by, still nothing - hundreds of profiles with a match ratio of 1 in 1000 with any real potential. Why is a 45 year old, religious, obese woman with an obvious lack of education and social etiquette showing up in my match list?!
Finally in the fourth week, a woman piqued my interest and she reciprocated with a "like". So, fueled by my renewed confidence, I sent her a message. I never received a response. Tack on several more of these incidents.
Yes! Another match that caught my attention and she reciprocated - I sent her a message. She disabled her account 6 hours after reading my message.
A fifth match in week six - she mutually "liked" me on Tinder. I sent her a message, we exchanged a few more and I made the decision to ask her to meet. The next day she "unliked" me. The conversation thread was gone and I could no longer see or contact her.
But waitanother match! We exchanged a few messages and then there was an indefinite radio silence.
After six weeks of exposure to the world of online dating, as a quality candidate, and literally no amount of success, I could only assume that my approach was ineffective. But how can that be? Six weeks without one single date? Something is off. Surely, it's reasonable to expect at least one date within six weeks.
Now, I know what you're thinking, "Your messages are probably scaring them off". But I can't imagine how a simple, creative and genuine interest in a woman's personality is off-putting. I didn't send a dick pic, I didn't comment on physical attributes, I didn't immediately ask to meet - none of that douchebaggery. Is a profile like mine too good to be true or something? What's the problem? I constantly see generic and boring profiles with no quality, yet many women state, "If I don't see a reference to something in my profile in your first message, I will not respond". Complete hypocrisy.
So, what DO you respond to? I invested a significant amount of time and thought into how to market myself and you women have the nerve to post an ultimatum when you put no thought at all into genuinely describing yourself.
"I'm 5'6", brown hair, blue eyes, and thin. I love long walks on the beach and the outdoors. My friends would describe me as genuine, funny, outgoing, happy-go-lucky, adventurous, and loving. I love movies and TV and on Fridays you can find me at a club downtown or at home watching a show on Netflix."
Knock it off. I want to hear what YOU think of yourself. Those profiles have no class and their lack of creativity is a complete turn off. Grow up and don't create a profile when you're drunk at your friend's house party.
The purpose of online dating is to offer a dating option for those with a busy lifestyle to cut through all of the red tape. Yet, there are people who think that the unspoken "game" that comes along with traditional dating should still exist, digitally. Lets talk about that game.
Two of those people in my life both tried online dating and met each other on Match five years ago. They have been married for two years. They seem certain that the most successful approach to online dating is to "fake it until you make it". By that, they mean that the man should pretend as though he has more important things to do than be on an online dating site. But secretly he's very eager. I was confused when they told me that, and I still am. I don't think being excited to try something new is a bad thing. And I'm not even completely focused on dating. I just want to meet people and build a circle of friends. I should have more friends. It's that simple.
They suggest that the man's strategy is meant to tease the woman by playing hard to get so that she is desperate to receive a response from him. She described her dating experience with her husband as aggravating and torturous while waiting for his response after five days ("don't let him see how psycho you are!"). She experienced intense insecurity, wondering why he wasnt writing back, convincing herself that she said the wrong thing or wasnt pretty enough. They spent two weeks emailing each other prior to meeting in person. I can't imagine how that was rewarding or enjoyable. I'm paying for online dating to meet in person, not to have a pen pal. And there is nothing wrong with expecting an immediate return on my investment; especially considering I'm paying a lot of money for these services.
My negative self-talk has resurfaced with a new intensity. The difference is that this time I'm mentally stable enough to review these feelings through introspection and break them down to understand why I'm truly upset. And I happened to stumble upon the answer while debating the online dating topics with this couple.
They said early on in online dating conversations I shouldn't be desperate because women can smell desperation a mile away, even through a computer. So I asked, "What is so desperate about wanting to meet in person?" Why beat around the bush? Why try online dating if you scare so easily when someone asks to meet? Are women afraid of meeting creepers or rapists? Two people "like" each other online; what's the problem? That "like" only happened because they learned more about each other in a matter of minutes than two people would through traditional dating over a period of days or even weeks.
Later on in the conversation I said, "I'm just concerned that by the age of 40 I will still be single". They called me out and said "That right there; that's the desperation we're referring to."
And that's when it hit me. I'll take you one step further and reveal my true concern. I'm afraid of dying alone, never having fallen in love or shared my life with a partner. I think this is a universal and relatable fear that strikes every person at some point in their life and grows every year. But I seem to be stuck in this rut and sort of forgot about it or ignored it over the past three years. And now, three years of suppression is hitting me hard.
I know I'm a catch and I have enough belief in myself to know I deserve this type of happiness.
I've never been one to go out of my way to be social, I constantly struggle with communication, I'm rigid with my routines and hobbies, and I'm easily distracted.
This is the definition of social anxiety disorder. And its something Ive been coping with all of my life.
After all of this online dating nonsense, I no longer feel comfortable saying anything to anyone or contributing to a conversation for fear of judgement. Its like years of progress has been undone. I have a track record logged over years of feedback of saying the wrong things or being unable to read body language and facial queues. I have a problem with interrupting people during conversation and I can see myself doing it but it just comes out of me, uncontrollably. I so badly want to be part of the community around me but I don't understand how to let it happen naturally. As a result, I establish a negative brand for myself. And while inaccurate, that brand is what people remember. I'm never going to stop being a project and I dread that thought. I would love for one day to go by without having to worry about developing myself or caring about what people think. But I don't think that's possible.
Okay, so I'm afraid of dying alone. Why? Maybe because it would mean that my life had no meaning; that the most human goal to have an impact on someone else's life was never achieved in any significant way. Perhaps a legacy will never have been left behind; that the world would just keep turning and no one would care that I was here.
I used to care about fairness a lot. But I've surrendered to the reality that life is very unfair and it is my responsibility to find the silver lining and use negative experiences as platforms for future success. But why am I the one that has to continue doing this? Will I ever be on the receiving end of good fortune? I know, I know. I have a family, I'm making decent money, I have shelter and food, and Im healthy, bla bla bla. That's not what I'm referring to. I've already counted my blessings.
I don't know how to make these feelings go away other than to again surrender to the recently realized possibility that I may very well die alone. But that would mean I've truly lost hope and the only emotions left are frustration, regret, sadness, anger, fear, loneliness, and doubt.
And that, above all, is the most unacceptable part of all of this.
It's amazing to me and incredibly crushing that an attempt to share my life with people has resulted in me not wanting to share it at all.
Its unlikely that I will continue wasting my efforts on online dating as it has me entangled in a web of self-doubt and reclusiveness.
But if anyone has a compelling reason to stick with it, please speak your mind.
I'm a single man at 30 years of age. I take care of myself, I make decent money, I'm creative, musical, articulate, intelligent, passionate, funny, and have plans for my future. I've lived in the same city for 8 years and am building a career for myself. I suffer from bipolar disorder, but have stabilized over the last 3 years.
I've been out of the dating scene for three years to the day. Every day, I've been working on myself to become a better and more accurate version of who I really am and want to be. After months of exercise, healthy eating and lifestyle improvements, I'm ready to start putting myself out there again. But because my lifestyle grants little time for social outings, I've decided to try online dating. I tried it five years ago but was suffering from major depressive disorder and wasn't very marketable, you know, hating the world and all.
So this time I took the time to research online dating to understand the changes in online dating throughout the last 5 years - best methods for success, catchy formats for profiles, best types of pictures to post, simple and successful formats that garner responses after the first message, the ratio of men to women, the most effective sites, etc.
Cut to six weeks after no success, a wave of insecurity has crashed over me - a mixture of emotions circling throughout my mind during the day, including frustration, confusion, regret, sadness, anger, hope, fear, loneliness, and doubt.
This second failed attempt at online dating isn't the source of these feelings but it is the spark that has reignited the feelings that I've suppressed or "managed" for the last three years.
I feel as though I can't speak without fear of judgement from family, coworkers or even strangers. Take note that I didn't mention friends because truthfully, I have none of any significance.
I look at all of the people in my life and see them happy with their relationships, whether it is marriage or friendship. That source of happiness doesn't exist for me, with the exception of family. Unfortunately, a sense of community happens to be one of the most necessary things in a person's life to remain stable.
But even my family judges me. I constantly receive feedback from every one of them about how there are things I should have done differently or how I should be more open minded. Now I don't take for granted that in between those bits of feedback, I do receive compliments of progress and the evolution of my personality and maturity. But it's hard to focus on the compliments when they are sandwiched between what I perceive as constructive criticism mixed with an unspoken layer of disappointment.
I thought I was making progress with my insecurities. When writing my bio for the online dating sites, I felt as though it was the truest and most accurate representation of myself that has ever been posted throughout my history with online dating. My confidence was significantly boosted after receiving positive feedback about my bio from my family and coworkers.
My self-worth was elevated and I felt primed to try online dating again. So I joined Tinder, OkCupid, Match, Plenty of Fish, and Coffee Meets Bagel. I wanted to cast a wide net.
After the first two weeks went by without results, I was a bit confused, but carried on.
Then the third week went by, still nothing - hundreds of profiles with a match ratio of 1 in 1000 with any real potential. Why is a 45 year old, religious, obese woman with an obvious lack of education and social etiquette showing up in my match list?!
Finally in the fourth week, a woman piqued my interest and she reciprocated with a "like". So, fueled by my renewed confidence, I sent her a message. I never received a response. Tack on several more of these incidents.
Yes! Another match that caught my attention and she reciprocated - I sent her a message. She disabled her account 6 hours after reading my message.
A fifth match in week six - she mutually "liked" me on Tinder. I sent her a message, we exchanged a few more and I made the decision to ask her to meet. The next day she "unliked" me. The conversation thread was gone and I could no longer see or contact her.
But waitanother match! We exchanged a few messages and then there was an indefinite radio silence.
After six weeks of exposure to the world of online dating, as a quality candidate, and literally no amount of success, I could only assume that my approach was ineffective. But how can that be? Six weeks without one single date? Something is off. Surely, it's reasonable to expect at least one date within six weeks.
Now, I know what you're thinking, "Your messages are probably scaring them off". But I can't imagine how a simple, creative and genuine interest in a woman's personality is off-putting. I didn't send a dick pic, I didn't comment on physical attributes, I didn't immediately ask to meet - none of that douchebaggery. Is a profile like mine too good to be true or something? What's the problem? I constantly see generic and boring profiles with no quality, yet many women state, "If I don't see a reference to something in my profile in your first message, I will not respond". Complete hypocrisy.
So, what DO you respond to? I invested a significant amount of time and thought into how to market myself and you women have the nerve to post an ultimatum when you put no thought at all into genuinely describing yourself.
"I'm 5'6", brown hair, blue eyes, and thin. I love long walks on the beach and the outdoors. My friends would describe me as genuine, funny, outgoing, happy-go-lucky, adventurous, and loving. I love movies and TV and on Fridays you can find me at a club downtown or at home watching a show on Netflix."
Knock it off. I want to hear what YOU think of yourself. Those profiles have no class and their lack of creativity is a complete turn off. Grow up and don't create a profile when you're drunk at your friend's house party.
The purpose of online dating is to offer a dating option for those with a busy lifestyle to cut through all of the red tape. Yet, there are people who think that the unspoken "game" that comes along with traditional dating should still exist, digitally. Lets talk about that game.
Two of those people in my life both tried online dating and met each other on Match five years ago. They have been married for two years. They seem certain that the most successful approach to online dating is to "fake it until you make it". By that, they mean that the man should pretend as though he has more important things to do than be on an online dating site. But secretly he's very eager. I was confused when they told me that, and I still am. I don't think being excited to try something new is a bad thing. And I'm not even completely focused on dating. I just want to meet people and build a circle of friends. I should have more friends. It's that simple.
They suggest that the man's strategy is meant to tease the woman by playing hard to get so that she is desperate to receive a response from him. She described her dating experience with her husband as aggravating and torturous while waiting for his response after five days ("don't let him see how psycho you are!"). She experienced intense insecurity, wondering why he wasnt writing back, convincing herself that she said the wrong thing or wasnt pretty enough. They spent two weeks emailing each other prior to meeting in person. I can't imagine how that was rewarding or enjoyable. I'm paying for online dating to meet in person, not to have a pen pal. And there is nothing wrong with expecting an immediate return on my investment; especially considering I'm paying a lot of money for these services.
My negative self-talk has resurfaced with a new intensity. The difference is that this time I'm mentally stable enough to review these feelings through introspection and break them down to understand why I'm truly upset. And I happened to stumble upon the answer while debating the online dating topics with this couple.
They said early on in online dating conversations I shouldn't be desperate because women can smell desperation a mile away, even through a computer. So I asked, "What is so desperate about wanting to meet in person?" Why beat around the bush? Why try online dating if you scare so easily when someone asks to meet? Are women afraid of meeting creepers or rapists? Two people "like" each other online; what's the problem? That "like" only happened because they learned more about each other in a matter of minutes than two people would through traditional dating over a period of days or even weeks.
Later on in the conversation I said, "I'm just concerned that by the age of 40 I will still be single". They called me out and said "That right there; that's the desperation we're referring to."
And that's when it hit me. I'll take you one step further and reveal my true concern. I'm afraid of dying alone, never having fallen in love or shared my life with a partner. I think this is a universal and relatable fear that strikes every person at some point in their life and grows every year. But I seem to be stuck in this rut and sort of forgot about it or ignored it over the past three years. And now, three years of suppression is hitting me hard.
I know I'm a catch and I have enough belief in myself to know I deserve this type of happiness.
I've never been one to go out of my way to be social, I constantly struggle with communication, I'm rigid with my routines and hobbies, and I'm easily distracted.
This is the definition of social anxiety disorder. And its something Ive been coping with all of my life.
After all of this online dating nonsense, I no longer feel comfortable saying anything to anyone or contributing to a conversation for fear of judgement. Its like years of progress has been undone. I have a track record logged over years of feedback of saying the wrong things or being unable to read body language and facial queues. I have a problem with interrupting people during conversation and I can see myself doing it but it just comes out of me, uncontrollably. I so badly want to be part of the community around me but I don't understand how to let it happen naturally. As a result, I establish a negative brand for myself. And while inaccurate, that brand is what people remember. I'm never going to stop being a project and I dread that thought. I would love for one day to go by without having to worry about developing myself or caring about what people think. But I don't think that's possible.
Okay, so I'm afraid of dying alone. Why? Maybe because it would mean that my life had no meaning; that the most human goal to have an impact on someone else's life was never achieved in any significant way. Perhaps a legacy will never have been left behind; that the world would just keep turning and no one would care that I was here.
I used to care about fairness a lot. But I've surrendered to the reality that life is very unfair and it is my responsibility to find the silver lining and use negative experiences as platforms for future success. But why am I the one that has to continue doing this? Will I ever be on the receiving end of good fortune? I know, I know. I have a family, I'm making decent money, I have shelter and food, and Im healthy, bla bla bla. That's not what I'm referring to. I've already counted my blessings.
I don't know how to make these feelings go away other than to again surrender to the recently realized possibility that I may very well die alone. But that would mean I've truly lost hope and the only emotions left are frustration, regret, sadness, anger, fear, loneliness, and doubt.
And that, above all, is the most unacceptable part of all of this.
It's amazing to me and incredibly crushing that an attempt to share my life with people has resulted in me not wanting to share it at all.
Its unlikely that I will continue wasting my efforts on online dating as it has me entangled in a web of self-doubt and reclusiveness.
But if anyone has a compelling reason to stick with it, please speak your mind.
Another reason I see is that for the most part the women are sometimes not even on their to seriously find a date, they just made an account or check it out for fun or because a friend told them and they think it might have been interesting. That same one applies for men as well sometimes though. I got a friend of mine to make account on a dating website too at the same time I did, so we could see how it worked for us and to be supportive I suppose. I'm a bit younger than you, so I'm sure we're looking at women with very different perspectives on life, so not everything might be applicable to your situation as it is to mine. Also another reason someone might not respond is because it could be a fake account, that happens on quite many websites.
I too suffer from depression but I don't talk about it to women that I just message for the first time, so I know that has nothing to do with it. Also I'm suffering from other ailments including physical ones, but that isn't shown on my profile or anything either so I've crossed that out for possible reasons to not get a response. To be quite honest, with some people I know that my ethnicity probably has something to do with the ignoring of messages, but I try to just keep in mind that some people have preferences for that kind of thing and that many people are just quite ignorant and fall for generalizations.
My advice to you is to just keep trying, you never know when it might prove to be worth it. Just try to keep in mind that you will get a lot of failures before you meet someone that's really worth it. I've learned that the hard way and still trying to deal with it without getting too upset. It's definitely not easy, but it's a must in this new time of social media and internet being the main way to start relationships.
It seems to me that you are obviously an intelligent and articulate person, but you also seem boastful and overbearing. The women you talk to might be feeling overwhelmed or anxious. I suggest keeping things more simple and try not to overanalyze.
And just because you get a matching result and you two together seems like a great thing in your mind, it doesn't mean that the woman will feel the same way right off the bat. Feelings take time to develop. She can have any reason not to reciprocate.
Here's the thing with online dating. I think a lot of women go on to get the satisfaction of flirty and talking in a safe environment but they have a lot of trepidation about meeting ANYONE in person. The only idea I could share is to let the woman initiate the "meeting in person" idea. Match.com, I understand, is a pretty busy site.
My sons have tried online dating and (I'm biased) they're very attractive and successful but women are reluctant to meet them in person. It's not fair to you, but a lot of women have been hurt by guys - stalked or abused or whatever. I've done online dating and have met some really great women that way (but I'm a woman, so I think they feel that's less threatening).
I can't think of a compelling reason for you to continue with online dating. But check Meet Up or some other group where they can get to know you in person in a safe place. Then maybe ask someone you like to go out for coffee afterwards or something.
People used to date and befriend those who lived close to them. These days people tend to get to know people in their "tribe" - people they go to church with, do hobbies with, etc.
Good luck!
I remember a couple of guys wanting photos etc when I was online dating. And then radio silence. Like, I'm a freak.
No, I realised later I was not a freak, I simply was clearly not hook-up material. Clearly. I wasn't a pro-forma bleach blond vacuous good time girl. I was plumper, softer looking, kinder, curly hair, glasses. I was too gentle. The photos I had were too gentle.
Too Mumsy. not as mumsy as a person can get in a print dress with a bow in their hair, but still mumsy.
I think you have 2 issues here:
1. is that online dating can be a horrible experience, but what you have to do is approach everyone and then go back for more with the 10% who don't ignore you, whittle that 10% down until you get the 10% of that who will date you once. .. etc. It's statistics.
2. You're an intelligent guy so I'll just give it to you straight: Please explain to me clearly what 'the wrong thing' is to say.
I really want to know.
Because I don't think there is any such thing. Confident people talk shit all day and nobody minds it. You listen to what other people say. Rocket science? Not likely. Be who you are. Say what you want. Let other people go have a crisis if they want to: but there is no such thing as 'the wrong thing to say'.
I spent my life controlled by this fear. I know what I'm talking about. A person who wants to put you down will put you down no matter what you say. A person who does not want to put you down will not put you down no matter what you say.
Therefore if you said the 'wrong' thing all it means is that someone wants to find fault with you. And that's them. That's their dislike of you personally for some random reason. That's who they are and you can learn to avoid them. Or ignore them. Or continue in front of them and enjoy their suffering.
There is no wrong thing.
I'd like to respond to a few of you.
Ranias:
I'd like to point out that reading online can be misleading. Keep in mind that my words may seem boastful but I am reaching out with the utmost humility. That said, I know that entitlement seems to be one of my greatest flaws. So I understand how I came across as boastful. In response to your last comment about women not feeling anything right off the bat - I don't feel anything either. All I see is an attractive woman who seems to have an equally attractive personality. Do I expect romance right away? No. Do I assume that a woman is truly interested in meeting? I used to. And at first I wasn't simple. But by the third week I switched tactics and reduced my engagement by keeping my messages simple.
Reed31:
Your comment about letting the woman bring up meeting in person is interesting. I think before reaching this point, I would have agreed but after realizing that women aren't truly interested in meeting, I doubt it would ever come up. And if women usually expect men to initiate women in traditional dating, why is the role reversed online? I've tried MeetUp.com a few times and each experience was awful. I'm a nerd, yes. But I'm not the stereotypical nerd that isn't capable of socializing at all. I understand how people think and how to communicate effectively. But the typical personality in the nerd crowd is not as experienced. So when I walked into those MeetUps, I was immediately aware that the meeting was going to be a bust. I may try again with a different group.
bridgie101:
I agree, statistics are absolutely accurate here. Most people think that there are more men than women on dating sites but it's the exact opposite. It's a 60/40 ratio. That was a surprise to me. And I did do some math.
You asked me what the wrong thing to say is. Well, I'm not sure anymore. That's the source of my anxiety. I've sent larger messages that are single paragraphs and I've sent single sentence intros. Example: "Hey there! Hope you had a good Christmas. So you're a musician, how long have you played?"
I think that's pretty simple. It's an ice breaker. It seems logical to me to start with an ice breaker and then start introducing humor. It's a progressive process, as far as I can tell.
zigzzagz:
I completely agree that I need a circle of friends and more experience. I feel like it's a chicken and egg thing. I'm not comfortable going out alone. And the friends I do have are either married with kids or friends of my sister's. Those are not friends that will get me what I want. I know this because I've already tried. I do have the time, but I don't have the resources. I went out last night with a coworker to a pool hall. While I had fun, it was fruitless in terms of growing my circle of friends. I know how to socialize. It actually comes easy to me when the opportunities show themselves. Example: At one of the bars, a guy approached me and asked to play the winner when we were done playing our table tennis game. So I won, and he and I played for about 10 minutes. It was a simple interaction with a complete stranger. And while no friendship was born from it, it was another reminder that I'm capable of socializing with ease.
My responses and first messages at this point are very simple. I've tried meetup groups and the experiences were very awkward and didn't amount to any results. Maybe I'll try again.
PatternSkies:
Like I said to zigzzagz, I'm comfortable in social outings when they happen. I'm just not very good at initiating them. How am I supposed to build a circle of friends by going to Starbucks to work on my laptop? I hate that suggestion and it's been given to me many times. I don't go to clubs because I don't see the value. After trying so many different strategies I'm left wondering why none of them work.
Thanks again to all of you responders.