Alcoholism Support Group
Alcoholism is the continued consumption of alcoholic beverages, even when it is negatively affecting your health, work, relationships and life. If you think alcohol is causing you to lose control, it's time to seek help. Our group is a safe place to vent, check in, get back up if you fall, and reach sobriety.
With or without AA seems to always be a contentious topic on here but that is not my attention with this post.
I have been carefully reading lots of posts on here and something has come to me regarding the fact that with or without AA in many cases might be the same thing.
The principle behind AA is that a spiritual awakening is the solution to alcoholism and the 12 steps are the way by which this spiritual awakening is achieved.
The AA literature refers to a spiritual awakening in many ways including "entire psychic change", "revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, our fellows and towards God's universe", "change in outlook and attitude,"huge emotional displacements and rearrangements".
The literature also makes two important points - that AA has no monopoly on treatment for the alcoholic and that no specific beliefs or conceptions of a higher power or spiritual path are required. A spiritual awakening can occur in a variety of time frames and be experienced very differently by different people.
There is also no claim that the 12 steps are the only way to achieve a spirtual awakening - we know this form common sense as there are millions of spiritual people in the world and only a small minority of them had their spiritual awakening through the 12 steps. The advantage of the 12 steps is that it is a way that can me communicated easily to others but it is certainly not the only way.
When I read the posts of people who have not used AA but have been happily and productively sober I see a lot of similarities in their recovery and mine. They often talk about spiritual matters, changes in the thinking, attitude, outlook etc. To me it would seem that these people have had spiritual awakenings. There have been a couple of posts recently that have really made me believe this - dont want to quote them here as i dont want to make this about specific people but they seemed to be about spiritual awakenings to me.
Not in all cases but certainly in some is it possible that our recoveries are essentially the same whether we are in AA or not? They are based on a spiritual awakening of some sort. Some of us acheived that through the 12 steps, some of us in other ways but the outcome is the same.
What do others think?
I have been carefully reading lots of posts on here and something has come to me regarding the fact that with or without AA in many cases might be the same thing.
The principle behind AA is that a spiritual awakening is the solution to alcoholism and the 12 steps are the way by which this spiritual awakening is achieved.
The AA literature refers to a spiritual awakening in many ways including "entire psychic change", "revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, our fellows and towards God's universe", "change in outlook and attitude,"huge emotional displacements and rearrangements".
The literature also makes two important points - that AA has no monopoly on treatment for the alcoholic and that no specific beliefs or conceptions of a higher power or spiritual path are required. A spiritual awakening can occur in a variety of time frames and be experienced very differently by different people.
There is also no claim that the 12 steps are the only way to achieve a spirtual awakening - we know this form common sense as there are millions of spiritual people in the world and only a small minority of them had their spiritual awakening through the 12 steps. The advantage of the 12 steps is that it is a way that can me communicated easily to others but it is certainly not the only way.
When I read the posts of people who have not used AA but have been happily and productively sober I see a lot of similarities in their recovery and mine. They often talk about spiritual matters, changes in the thinking, attitude, outlook etc. To me it would seem that these people have had spiritual awakenings. There have been a couple of posts recently that have really made me believe this - dont want to quote them here as i dont want to make this about specific people but they seemed to be about spiritual awakenings to me.
Not in all cases but certainly in some is it possible that our recoveries are essentially the same whether we are in AA or not? They are based on a spiritual awakening of some sort. Some of us acheived that through the 12 steps, some of us in other ways but the outcome is the same.
What do others think?
A bit disappointed that people have turned what I hoped would be a positive post into yet another debate about things that are covered time and time again. It wasnt about AA vs non AA or my way is better than yours. It was supposed to be about sobriety and spiritual awakening. And seeing similarities in our recoveries rather than differences.
Never mind :)
I personally believe abstinence is possible by not using, but the peace that comes with sobriety is the change of the body, mind and soul - however that process is achieved is up to the individual, but that appears to be the most successful outcome, IMO of course.
Nicky I struggled with the word Spiritual just as much as I did God. What I came to understand for myself that this was a journey of self-discovery and change and that was the spiritual aspect for me.
My 7th day sober I went to my 5th AA meeting which was a 'Spiritual Concept' one at St John of God. Man was that a beautiful meeting. Every speaker has this serenity about them and an aura. I swear one guy shone in the light (I might have been hallucinating lol). It had such an affect on me and I went back every Sunday.
I don't know what relevance this has to your post Nicky, but it's what I remember when I read your thread. These people had obviously been awakened by something to be this peaceful and they showed no sign of ever wanting to drink again. None of them were joking and holding court, they just wanted to share how fanbloodytastic they felt. And at that stage, I was willing to listen.
These are the people I wanted to be around and to feed off that aura and Hope. As for comparisons in that with aa and non aa people. Yes, I see that same aura and hope, the same self-disovery and change in many who are not aa members. It's the www, want, willingness and work which is our common ground. There's many members here who are not AA, and don't have a quantity of time up who I admire and receive strength from daily. Grateful they are here.
I need the structure and the fellowship of other alkies. That is why I believe AA is my best chance at recovery. I know others can achieve via their own routes. Bill W only put a structured program together. He did not invent the ideas. In fact, I believe all except steps 1 and 2 were adapted from the Oxford group - I could be wrong. I think steps 1/2 were inspired by Jung.
So IMO aa provides a specific path that works for those of us who can't seem to blaze the trail ourselves.
Spirituality is not taught - it is discovered IMO, and the talents of Rembrandt or Picasso were not taught either - they were discovered by those who had the ability within.
I think we all have the capacity for spirituality if we are guided by principles. Being surrounded by alcoholics with good sobriety no doubt helps.
Nemo, I love your wisdom but not many with 20 years hangs around an alcoholic website.
I can also guarantee that I don't come here to get advice from a newcomer, sorry. . I sometimes chime in here to just to see if a few with at least 10 years are sharing their wisdom.
I have great friends in and outta the program and I did learn a new way to go about life through AA.
Spiritual awakening= Psychic change,,,,,,,right???
The newbies and advice givers all help me in ways they'll probably never know, and as usual I have a story about all that.
During my first few years of sobriety I lived not too far from a full service rehab called Seminole Point Hospital in Sunapee, New Hampshire that had two open AA meetings per week. It also had an ice cream bar, but more about that in a moment.
My favorite was the Wednesday night step meeting. Part of what I wanted to hear were the stories told by the patients, the majority of whom had relapsed after anything from a few months to many years of sobriety.
I would sit on the edge of my chair and listen when they talked about what had gone on in their lives in the weeks, days and minutes before they picked up the one that had brought them to that hospital. Like the helmsman of a fragile boat in a treacherous river, I wanted a chart drawn by experienced skippers to tell me where the rocks & reefs were and how to mind the channel buoys.
One night a guy I'll call George had quite a story to tell. After about four sober years in AA, he had become turned off by his home group in Quincy, Massachusetts and all their "God stuff" and had traded in his chips for the program called Rational Recovery. The rest was the usual slipalogue. One day several months later a drink was inexplicably in his hand, and then it was back to to drinking around the clock again within a few weeks after that.
Later that evening at the ice cream bar, George was still singing the praises of Rational Recovery. And despite the queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that I shouldn't be buying into it, I was frankly intrigued by the word picture he was painting-- take the course for a year, graduate and never drink again. No steps, no meetings, no higher power, no inventories, no amends, just permanent normality.
Then it hit me, and I asked, "George, how did you get here?"
"What do you mean?" he replied.
"Well, it's over a hundred miles from Quincy to Sunapee, right?"
"Yes."
"So how did you get here?" I pressed. "Did you drive up, take the bus or did someone give you a ride?"
"OK, OK, I came in an ambulance, all right?" he said sharply, and then at once calmed down as he quickly changed to subject back to the advantages of Rational Recovery. But by then my curiosity had faded and my own queasy stomach had also calmed as I yielded to the more soothing temptation of a vanilla shake.