maybe those sober alcoholics are exactly what thier looking for

ive been running in the same place for some time now, and yep.....im miserable.....want me to prove it?

back to your post, im a real jagoff, really.

real life friends? what are those? DS friends, yea, right.....cant be real with myself let alone real with folks here on DS

Its possible that this interaction is living for them. They are finding some value in the process even if it is not progress. Maybe this is a vast improvement compared w a life using and finding no purpose or destination for each day. Just thoughts.

I can totally understand what you are syaing, Sara. I think it does give them a sense of belonging, security, and maybe self worth. Maybe there is no better way for some. It's certainly better than every day drinking, for example.

I guess I am noticing it with a few friends specifically - it's as though they are staying stuck while I am starting to move a little. I watched my sponsor's world come crashing down when her feelings were hurt by one person. I am sure there was more to it - but it just seems she was too dependent on other people. Hard to explain but all of a sudden she seems really sick to me.

Don't get me wrong - my friends have been invaluable in my own recovery thus far. I value my relationships and wouldn't be here without them. But I am starting to see that I have to take responsibility for myself and develop coping mechs beyond hugs from friends, if that makes sense.

And just for the record, Sara, I personally think you are a perfect example of someone working a program - I think you are continuously focused on improving yourself and you will continue to make progress. IMO.

I should also add that I noticed this about myself awhile back. Recognizing it has helped me refocus some effort toward working on myself and my "program". This includes working the steps in AA but also just in my daily life.

Yea i am probably over analyzing. I just know some don't appear to take much action to get better. maybe "taking action" is a better word than "program".

some people think abstinence from drinking is recovery - took me years to learn that wasn't enough.

Peace!

Seen lots of alcoholics use meetings to stay sober. It usually works until something happens or they miss a few meetings. Sometimes it takes a few trips through the door before they figure it out.
Meetings will never replace the need to actually live the steps...

I know when I need to walk away. That took some time, though. I don't like that uneasy feeling in my gut anymore. Not for me to point anything out to anyone, but I don't need to be a party to it, either.

Clancy I. called it in a pitch the neverending procession of alcoholics through the rooms of AA on their way to the graveyard. I thought that fits.

HTL,

For me, going through the steps with a sponsor was eye opening and gave me relief. It took years of trial by fire to actually mature enough to live the steps/principles of the AA program. I "grew up" in public.

I also got to AA with many deeply ingrained ideas. It certainly was not an overnight proposition for me. I had yet more bottoms to hit as a result.

The fellowship worked for a short time when I got to AA but being dry was so miserable that taking the steps was my only option. Drinking was not an option but had I not gotten busy with the steps, it would have only been a matter of time.

The internet could never replace the eyeball to eyeball contact with another recovering drunk, IMO. But when I sobered up, I didn't have access to a computer, let alone AA online, so who's to say?

The phrase "constitutionally incapable" from the AA Big Book raises some really difficult and intriguing questions for me. I think it goes deeply against some of our most cherished ideals about equality and the American Dream to seriously consider that we're not all created genetically and biochemically equal.

First, a little background. The AA Big Book was published in 1939. But after World War II there was an understandably very strong reaction against the Nazis' idea that some sort of a master race could be bred through eugenics and genetic engineering. So the idea that some mental disorders were fundamentally untreatable was repugnant to everyone's working assumptions about human nature. Behaviorism gained enormous popularity because it's founded on the premise that we're all born exactly the same, and any differences among us can be accounted for by differences in nurture and social environment.

Our governments, both local and federal, still pour enormous amounts of money and effort into urban renewal projects based on this same assumption, which is that if you straighten out the environment, people's insides will respond automatically. Meanwhile, Big Phama has jumped into the game by offering a pill for every ill. I think there are solid reasons to doubt all of this.

In any case, the Big Book was written just before WW II broke out, when it was still politically OK to imply that some people simply can't change, no matter how hard they try. In Chapter 5 it simply states, "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

That's strong stuff. Constitutionally incapable? Nobody believes that any more-- or do they? The Big Book authors were exaggerating, right? Or were they? If someone wrote that today, I'm not sure there's a reputable publisher in the country who would be willing to risk the coordinated backlash that would almost certainly come from the rehab industry, the pharmaceutical manufacturers, the churches and the psychiatrists & therapists, just to name a few.

Bottom-line hard questions: does every alcoholic have an equal chance of achieving lifelong sobriety? Do we all have the same capacity to grasp and develop this manner of living? The reason I ask is because between the time when I first admitted that I'm an alcoholic and the day of my last drink there was this minor lapse of 13 years during which I could clearly see what alcohol was doing to me, but none of it added up to a desire to stop drinking. I still have no idea where that desire came from or why it took hold at all, and I assure you that neither virtue nor a sense of social duty had anything to do with it. I simply drank until my drinking ruined my drinking.

So I have to ask, are we who've found this solution for ourselves really in a position to generalize and moralize on the subject? Not me, that's for sure. And if not, are we who've found a permanent solution for ourselves really in any position to offer support and advice, or are we just making things harder for those who don't have, and very possibly never will have, a compelling desire to stop drinking?

To put that another way, with my track record, who the hell am I to tell someone else how to do something that I was constitutionally incapable of doing for thirteen years? Anyone who knew me when could knock me out of that pulpit in about ten seconds flat.

Just to clarify my statements... This is NOT intended to be directed at people who aren't doing AA's "program". I have several friends who I respect and love dearly who have chosen to recover without AA. They don't fall into the category I am describing.

Maybe there are also people who are happy without booze and without some sort of program. Those aren't the people I am referring to.

The people I am talking about are the ones who appear unhappy and don't seem to be doing anything about their situation. I think most people who stop drinking are pretty miserable in the beginning, but if you look at most people who stay sober a long time they have found some solution to help them find peace and happiness.

I am also saying I was that person for awhile and even still somewhat. I clung to my ex-sponsor I think because I could relate. I wanted to develop friendships and she was helping me learn to trust people enough for that to happen. At the same time, I watched her house of cards crumble because she didn't have enough tools to stay standing when she perceived her friends were letting her down. Dang - I love this woman and would do anything to help her if I could, but I can't seem to do anything to get through.

I have other friends that I think might relapse any day - it's just a gut feeling I guess. They don't seem like they are doing well. My first sponsor had 9 years sober and she was about as dry drunk as they come.

Hope I'm not offending anyone - I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. I know it will sound shitty to say this but I think you know exactly what I'm talking about if you've witnessed it. It's like a strange and sad phenomena. I'm just glad I think I understand now what I am suppsed to do. I have 20 days sober so this not me preaching to anyone - just making an observation of myself and others.

I had that same experience in individual therapy. At least, I think we're talking about the same thing.
I started realizing that the people I had in my life were stuck in their own lives and getting in their own way. Whereas I was finally making actual changes in my life and things were falling into place.
Now I still have periods where I, myself, am not moving forward, but just staying in place. But I have become much better at recognizing it when it happens and then take steps to start moving again and in seeing how to do it.
It's a good life lesson, learned.

My sponser likes to tell about how drunk he was when he first started going to meeting but he went because it was his turn to make the coffee!

Responsibility!

Peace!