I haven't read Allan Carr's book but this is thought provoking. From what I've seen, so many things are used in a way to check out or alter one's brain chemistry. Sure there are alcohol and drugs but there's also caffeine (I'm having my coffee now), eating, vegging watching TV. For many, it's a stress filled world.

You make me think - much within AA seems to lean toward the negative camp. You write "can't be normal". Character defects. If at some point the collective AA'rs or sober people viewed it as awesome, maybe others would jump on board.

Personally, I think that's nonsense. I know many people who were never out of control with their drinking, they drank to change the way they felt, to wind down or to just help them to relax in a social environment. It is a poison that's true but only in the large amounts we took it in. Most people don't go to that extreme every time, or some, any time.
For some people it DOES have benefits!

AA just says that we cannot drink like normal people and that is obvious to me, I tried to drink like them but every time I just couldn't do it. In every other respect I am a normal person. I don't get why you would think reply #1 that we in AA lean towards some 'negative camp' I love my sober life! The only time I am leaning towards something negative is if I am drinking and I have done none of that for a long time.

Here is a normal family . But what lies behind there shrouded dimples and goodness Tonto :) Yes! I agree Nonsense! Where'Frank when ya need Himmm noooooooooooo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkSc9RXs0IA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z53oWCZXX4

I don't subscribe to that point of view. Hate to say it, but alcohol tasted pretty good in my day, after I got past the initial unpalatable flavour of it at first sip at 14 yr old...ha ha. I believe there is a scale of alcoholism, but not of "normal" drinking. Normal drinking is normal drinking - have a few pints or glasses of wine . Or one. Or half. And then shut it down. Go on with business. Have a nice meal, go for a walk, play with the dog. Not think about it again. I wasn't like that.

I am glad you feel better that you can control something that a poor slug like me can't. My ego felt the same...until I broke out into handcuffs and hospital wrist bands. And I don't feel like a "poor" guy being in the 10%. I don't need pity. What I have is a life richer and more fulfilling than if I was drinking still. I feel more connected to life and others. If it weren't for my alcoholism slapping me around for a long time, I wouldn't be at the place I am right now. I would be walking around, eyes closed to life and to the Creator. So I am not "poor" in any way just because I can't have a Merlot with my roasted chicken. Really? Is that the barometer of enjoyment in life? You should have met me when I was having lots of merlot with no chicken and see how I was then. I was truly "poor" in many ways then.

Yup too much wriggle room for the alcoholic down that particular road I think..."I'm exactly the same as everybody else, just a bit worse!!" Hah! You can't be a little bit pregnant like they told me...

Same goes for the AA is too negative line. Taught me much I needed to learn, what I found is it was all in my reaction most of the negative I was hearing was already there and not necessarily coming out of other peoples mouths. Some of it real and some of it imagined but pays to take a cold hard look in the mirror rather than gor for the easy way out.

P

with all due respect to that opinion, I think there are many normal drinkers. Alcohol has some health benefits as far as I'm concerned. For a normie, it takes the 'edge' off a bit and can be a social "lubricant" of sorts. I don't see any harm in that. None.
I know many people who drink a glass of wine now and then and have for years. Are they headed toward alcoholism? No.
I'm a normie for example with other things like pain killers, gambling, sex, etc. All these can apparently be highly addictive and lead to being out of control but I've never experienced any of that with them. Just the good stuff.
Am I still on my way to sex addiction? No.

Hello claired4,

I have not read Allen Carrs book but if you have quoted him correctly I could not argue with his point about normal drinkers. However, it can be easy to take what someone says out of context and twist his words to suit our own agenda.

Everyone who drinks may potentially become an alcoholic but the vast majority certainly will not. Normal drinkers will have a choice as to when and how much they will drink and they may choose to quit drinking at any time. I was in the company of two such drinkers today and we went into a hotel for lunch. Both had one glass of wine and one drank only about half of her drink. If I had taken a drink I would be sneaking around the corner for a quick double and would then find a good excuse to stop again for a few more before reaching home. Those two ladies who were in my company today could potentially become alcoholics but I would bet my last cent that they will not. I on the other hand came to a stage in my drinking where I had to drink every day and no matter how much I drank it was never enough. I had a lot of pride and used every ounce of willpower to try and stop drinking without looking for help but I failed completely.

You can argue that too much of any food or drink is unhealthy and alcohol is no different. Likewise, taken in moderation alcohol has many benefits and it is ridiculous to suggest that a person who is not an alcoholic and who takes a couple of drinks is hooked on a drug. Those people do not have a mental obsession which drives them to go to any lengths to get a drink. Neither do they develop a craving for more alcohol once they take a drink. If they are heavy drinkers a percentage of them will develop that obsession and physical craving but the vast majority will not so they will remain normal drinkers.

Thank God that I am one of the poor 10% because I had a fantastic day today and did not think about alcohol even when I was in a bar and ordering drinks for other people. For me, the obsession for alcohol had to be removed and it was only through AA that I could do that. Fair dues to you if you can control it on your own and I wish you continued success. The only problem that I have with your post is that someone who is as desperate, out of control and clutching at straws as I was a few years ago may come to believe that they dont need help and for some alcoholics that sort of thinking can be fatal.

Yes, social drinkers drink for the effect but the effect doesn't seem to consume them like it does us. Having said that I do believe that our society has a drinking problem.

I have read Carr's book and agree with a lot of what he has to say. This I am not so sure about.

I view alcoholics as having an addiction to alcohol (change in dopamine receptors, physical dependence, mental cravings and uncontrollable desire to consume more, even knowing it is unhealthy.) I suppose those changes might happen to anyone given enough time and enough drinking -- but I am not sure it WILL happen.

I do think it is poison.

Its relatively natural to seek a high. From most stone age cultures, to small children to most people in general. The stone age people used local plants, the kid uses sugar or just plain getting dizzy but they like highs. From peyote to alcohol, to MJ, Cocaine, the poppy etc
For some it comes through food or sex but we love escape

Maybe it's because his work started with smoking cessation....but I think the point is that no one *needs* to drink, any benefits come from the drinkers perception, not reality.
Another part that stuck with me from the book is that once he had quit for good friends would ask him "can't you just have the one drink?" and his answer "sure, but why would I?"

That itch that makes us go seeking, that's common to many I think, worse in some than others. You might call it an -ism, some kind of spiritual funk.

The thing that makes me turn to drink, specifically, in preference to many other things...that's maybe not so common I'm a little different than your average bear :)

And the way I react over time when I take a drink...I know for a fact it's different than many people I know, hence drink became such a solitary affair for me. Wether that was me from day 1 or wether it changed and developed over time...I have my theories but makes no difference.

Three fronts there where I might not be on a par with others in regard to one particular thing, doesn't make me less than, just different than normal. An achilles heel or two. The trick I learnt is that I can do something about ONE of those deficiencies, with a little help from outside, so that's what I try to do today. And I'm OK with the fact that I have these deficiencies...not being perfect is not so bad after all. Who'd have guessed eh??

Is booze dangerous for everyone? Confucious he say "anything chased as an answer become a problem" ;)

P

I am sure that we could knock out most of what we do if we boil it down to the idea of do we *need* it. No, we don't *need* alcohol, as much as we don't *need* TV, amongst other things. But, they bring us enjoyment when done in moderation or in small amounts - like booze. Many people do enjoy a beer or two when on the patio or backyard, or when they watch the hockey game, or some pair wine with their dinner (a glass or such) and some like a shot of something at the bar to loosen them up a bit. No big deal. It's a pleasure...something that may have started out for some of us alcoholics, but eventually the drink took over.

Like Paul there, I can't just have a drink any more. One drink will lead to dozens which leads me down a rabbit hole I have been down one too many times, and may not come out of again for good. That's the kind of thing the normal drinker doesn't have to worry about...about wondering where their spree (and there will be a spree) will end them - in jail, hospital, etc. Normal drinkers don't have to think of those things.

Normal drinkers exist. They don't think about their drink consumption as much as someone doesn't think about their brussel sprout consumption. They have it and move on, not thinking about it.

Normal stuff, ya know? ;)

yeah - i haven't read him, but my gut is that is BS from someone who still is dealing step 1 issues - like he cannot believe he's an alcoholic, and if he is then everybody must be in some way.

sounds like what someone would say to make themselves feel superior - like they're the only one who has a clue.

as for that response ("can't you have just one drink?" "yes, but why would i?") that's like a slap in the face, and it hink that is how he intended it. HOWEVER - that is not what AA is about - we are supposed to take the word to OTHER ALCOHOLICS and ONLY WHEN THEY ARE IN NEED. we're not supposed to preach to the general populace.

I have no idea what a "normal" drinker is and have always HATED hearing the term normies... Like they are a different species than I am.

What is a normal drinker?

Is is someone like my mom who never had more than a sip, and then only when lifting a glass in a toast?

Is it someone like my sister who can drink half a bottle of wine with dinner, but doesn't miss it if she doesn't have it?

Or my other sister who can't handle more than a single beer?

Or is it like a lot of my friends who look forward to drinking and often drink to get drunk?

There is a huge difference in how alcohol is viewed and consumed by each of these people, but they all would be considered to be normal drinkers.