gordon -- just as an FYI, the founder of Moderation Management admitted it wasn't working for her, that her drinking was out of control and she needed to stop completely. She was trying to quit when she had her accident (and back in AA).

Nurse -- glad you figured this out. Now you can stop worrying about whether or not you can or should drink again. You can't and shouldn't, unless you want to fall back in the alcoholic abyss.

(((hugs)))

Some lessons we must learn for ourselves

It's usually all or nothing for me. I guess that's why we are all here...

I didn't drink excessively, I was able to stop at 2-3, but I wanted (really badly) to drink more and started looking forward to the next night out, not to socialize, but to have an excuse to drink. I don't think I had recognized the obsession until then. I even considered taking a day off work so I could drink. If that's not alcoholic behavior than nothing is! It was enough for me! Fortunately, it's also Lent so I have a really good "excuse" not to drink, most of our associates probably won't even recognize that there is an ending to Lent!! LOL!

Re the lady who founded MM, MM says her intentions were to try SMART, AA and WFS. I found what MM says to be true:

"Audrey was struggling with a drinking problem, and her struggle, like the struggle of all MM, AA.,S.M.A.R.T. and other support group members, was her own personal struggle. In fact, to the extent that Audrey was able to move toward a healthier place with respect to drinking during her time in both MM and AA, both support groups did their job!"

The thing that strikes me is there is often too much focus on the method used rather than the personal commitment and willingness to do ALL that a programme/method suggests. Many alcoholics fail to follow through with all that is suggested in any programme.

I think it's vital that a problem drinker needs to be searchingly honest with themselves about the degree to which they have lost choice and control with their drinking. It was obvious to me over the years that I had a progressive illness as periods of abstinence got harder, shorter and with less space between them. Moderation was not a feasible option for me as an alcoholic.

Perhaps MM might be a good help for heavy drinkers who are not alcoholic or physically dependent. Moderation groups are gaining in popularity, some under the umbrella of harm reduction. There's nothing wrong with that, the onus and responsibility for what is appropriate and how thoroughly a programme or guidelines are worked always comes back to the individual in my experience.

Here's the full statement by MM from the time this tragedy happened:

http://www.moderation.org/Mmboard.shtml

A ...what makes you the authority on what several million people do and don't Do as a way of not drinking and becoming all they can be! The contributing factors are so far reaching I'd be real careful that what I might say in a generalized opinion might just reflect negatively on others approach which I can never be to sure of unless I've shadowed them for all of their lives Opinion's are a far less than helping hand .....I should know I just gave mine noooooooooooooooooo:))
Billy

Lol Billy!

Let me just start by saying that moderation, for me personal, not a great idea. But that's not to say that there aren't people that can't pull it off and that does not mean that they weren't drinking alcoholically or dependently.
Antonia said, "Perhaps MM might be a good help for heavy drinkers who are not alcoholic or physically dependent"
The physical dependence disappears after going though the withdrawal process and that doesn't take that long. I think there are two factors that determine if people can or should try to ever moderate again. One is the length of time in which you did drink dependently, the longer the less likely a moderation approach could work. The 2nd factor is whether or not you addressed the underlying issues that were causing you to self-medicate in the first place. I think that someone who may have hit a rough patch of life for say a few years but who then figures out what those issues were, AND resolves them, has a pretty good shot at moderation. I know people who fit that category and to say they were only "heavy drinkers" and not alcoholics in not accurate. These people lost jobs, relationships etc. in very quick order because they were drinking very alcoholically or dependently.
For me, moderation would almost certainly be a fail. Why? I drank for over 35 years! The reasons changed and evolved over the years but that's a damn long time. In order to moderate, it would cause stress and anxiety, two of the causes of my dependence in the first place so why would I do that to myself? Could I? Sure but it would be a monumental pain in the you know what and it very possibly and probably likely would cause me to slip back into dependent drinking. So for me, not worth it and I'm not going to risk it. I enjoy my life, I remember things, have excelled in various pursuits that would never have occurred if I was still in that state.
So, I choose abstinence because for me, it's the right choice.

Antonia says:
"The thing that strikes me is there is often too much focus on the method used rather than the personal commitment and willingness to do ALL that a programme/method suggests."

I really wish there were a "like" button for that observation, and I completely agree. Whatever method one uses to get sober, it takes follow-through and commitment to STAY sober; if you stop doing the things that helped you in the beginning, you risk going backwards and could very well end up drinking again.

Rolf, I think our definitions of what makes one an "alcoholic" are quite different. External factors like losing jobs and families is not what makes you an alcoholic, and neither is drinking alcoholically or dependently by itself. You make it sound like you can cure your alcoholism if, a) you haven't been drinking for long and b) you address your underlying issues. An alcoholic cannot safely drink no matter how long he or she has been away from it or how emotionally/psychologically healthy they are. (How do you account for the total nutjobs out there who can have a couple of beers and walk away?) On the other hand there are people who have been sober for almost as long -- or longer -- than they drank (myself included) who decide that a couple of beers at baseball game couldn't hurt (myself NOT included) and they're off and running. Are you saying you think that a physical, chemical reaction to alcohol needs a lot of time (weeks? months? years?) to create dependency in everyone? That the metabolism of an alcoholic is the same as it is for everyone else, and that, provided you didn't drink for too long and got some great therapy, anyone who ever drank too much can learn to safely do the champagne toast at a wedding? Interesting, but in my opinion, a dangerous suggestion that absolutely won't work for all of us.

I think there is such a thing as a heavy drinker and a problem drinker, and then there's the alcoholic in a category by him/herself. I haven't been a drunk for many years, but I am physically an alcoholic whose mind AND body simply can't handle the booze like other people. And never will.

Laura,
Anyone can "cure" their "alcoholism" by making a choice. I agree that abstinence is the best policy for most people who have ever drank dependently. You get no argument from me for that. I personally know (not myself) people who have gone back to drinking in moderation and they most definitely fit the accepted criteria for being an alcoholic. The old "then they weren't an alcoholic" spin is a total AA myth which has no basis in fact.

Laura, you say:
"if you stop doing the things that helped you in the beginning, you risk going backwards and could very well end up drinking again."

Not true for me. I am NOT doing the things I did in my early days that helped me stay sober and I am not at risk of going backwards. I am a non drinker now, and the only way I can become a drinker again is by making a conscious choice to drink.

Hi Rolph, it's interesting that you know alcoholics who have started drinking moderately. I think some margin of error has to exist with alcoholism purely because it's self-diagnosed (or a medical professional or some other authority concludes you are).

There is no actual medical test to prove or disprove it! There may be one day but it hasn't happened yet. As with genetic research, the chromosomes that are responsible for genetic inheritance for alcoholism have been identified but the markers are yet to be isolated.

So I don't personally think that an alcoholic can ever have power over how much they drink, physiologically alcoholics are different to normal drinkers, and I'm not sure how it's possible to turn that around.

Yes, our understanding of alcoholism is probably quite different but it makes for interesting discussion. I look forward to hearing you on Monica's show.

Hi Ex Jersey, I agree with Laura because I saw the progression of alcoholism all too obviously in myself. I may not have drank in some years but that is because I do what I need to do on a daily basis. I am still an alcoholic.