Alcoholism Support Group
Alcoholism is the continued consumption of alcoholic beverages, even when it is negatively affecting your health, work, relationships and life. If you think alcohol is causing you to lose control, it's time to seek help. Our group is a safe place to vent, check in, get back up if you fall, and reach sobriety.
Is addiction real? Yes, but..... Ok, so Ive stated my case as to why I dont buy into the disease argument with regards to alcoholism or as I prefer, alcohol/drug dependency.
When having this debate, many times the other person will say, Ok, well if its not a disease, then it most definitely is an ADDICTION
While addiction is real, I dont care for the word because it also implies a state in which the person has no control over it. So, lets take a look at what constitutes this much misunderstood word.
Addiction, when discussing alcohol or drugs, clearly has two very different components, one physical and one mental. Now there are addictions that only have the mental component (gambling, shopping, etc) and Ill touch on those later, but for now well concern ourselves with just substance addiction.
With regards to the physical aspect of it, if you go to www.psychology.com and click on the tab Psych
Basics and then click on addiction you will find the following in the body of the article;
The word addiction is used in several different ways. One definition describes physical addiction. This is a biological state in which the body adapts to the presence of a drug so that drug no longer has the same effect; this is known as tolerance. Because of tolerance, there is a biological reaction when the drug is withdrawn. Another form of physical addiction is the phenomenon of overreaction by the brain to
drugs (or to cues associated with the drugs). An alcoholic walking into a bar, for instance, will feel an extra pull to have a drink because of these cues.
Ok, now while this is a very real and debilitating consequence of using/abusing drugs/alcohol, it is hardly irreversible and therefore not some kind of terminal disease!
Now is it easy? HELL NO, but once you make the decision to overcome your addiction, its simply, from a physical standpoint, a matter of enduring the pain and discomfort from withdrawal.
Withdrawal can be one of the most horrid experiences of your life and dangerous as well, so you should seek medical help before you take it on.
OK, now on to the mental part of addiction.
From that same article on www.psychology.com, addiction is defined as follows;
Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, or health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others.
However, most addictive behavior is not related to either physical tolerance or exposure to cues. People compulsively use drugs, gamble, or shop nearly always in reaction to being emotionally stressed, whether or not they have a physical addiction. Since these psychologically based addictions are not based on drug or
brain effects, they can account for why people frequently switch addictive actions from one drug to a completely different kind of drug, or even to a non-drug behavior. The focus of the addiction isn't what matters; it's the need to take action under certain kinds of stress. Treating this kind of addiction requires an understanding of how it works psychologically.
A condition is not a disease but is still nonetheless very real. Emotionally stressed is a bit vague but I agree that for most people, besides the physical addiction, there is also this mental component and that that component should be more accurately call a DEPENDENCY
I agree that for many if not most alcoholics, their dependency is a result of and a response to underlying issues and/or internal pain and suffering
From medicalnewstoday.com When a person is addicted to something they cannot control how they use it, and become dependent on it to cope with daily life.
I agree wholeheartedly and these dependencies that are composed of underlying stresses, issues, internal pain or whatever you want to call it, need to be uncovered, addressed and overcome.
Thats what part two of The Freedom to Recover is all about. You dont need to surrender your will or admit powerlessness but rather do the exact opposite. You need to utilize methods that will empower you to recreate your view of the world and your ability to deal with these underlying factors.
People are doing every day and so can you!
Peace out,
Rolf Ankermann
When having this debate, many times the other person will say, Ok, well if its not a disease, then it most definitely is an ADDICTION
While addiction is real, I dont care for the word because it also implies a state in which the person has no control over it. So, lets take a look at what constitutes this much misunderstood word.
Addiction, when discussing alcohol or drugs, clearly has two very different components, one physical and one mental. Now there are addictions that only have the mental component (gambling, shopping, etc) and Ill touch on those later, but for now well concern ourselves with just substance addiction.
With regards to the physical aspect of it, if you go to www.psychology.com and click on the tab Psych
Basics and then click on addiction you will find the following in the body of the article;
The word addiction is used in several different ways. One definition describes physical addiction. This is a biological state in which the body adapts to the presence of a drug so that drug no longer has the same effect; this is known as tolerance. Because of tolerance, there is a biological reaction when the drug is withdrawn. Another form of physical addiction is the phenomenon of overreaction by the brain to
drugs (or to cues associated with the drugs). An alcoholic walking into a bar, for instance, will feel an extra pull to have a drink because of these cues.
Ok, now while this is a very real and debilitating consequence of using/abusing drugs/alcohol, it is hardly irreversible and therefore not some kind of terminal disease!
Now is it easy? HELL NO, but once you make the decision to overcome your addiction, its simply, from a physical standpoint, a matter of enduring the pain and discomfort from withdrawal.
Withdrawal can be one of the most horrid experiences of your life and dangerous as well, so you should seek medical help before you take it on.
OK, now on to the mental part of addiction.
From that same article on www.psychology.com, addiction is defined as follows;
Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, or health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others.
However, most addictive behavior is not related to either physical tolerance or exposure to cues. People compulsively use drugs, gamble, or shop nearly always in reaction to being emotionally stressed, whether or not they have a physical addiction. Since these psychologically based addictions are not based on drug or
brain effects, they can account for why people frequently switch addictive actions from one drug to a completely different kind of drug, or even to a non-drug behavior. The focus of the addiction isn't what matters; it's the need to take action under certain kinds of stress. Treating this kind of addiction requires an understanding of how it works psychologically.
A condition is not a disease but is still nonetheless very real. Emotionally stressed is a bit vague but I agree that for most people, besides the physical addiction, there is also this mental component and that that component should be more accurately call a DEPENDENCY
I agree that for many if not most alcoholics, their dependency is a result of and a response to underlying issues and/or internal pain and suffering
From medicalnewstoday.com When a person is addicted to something they cannot control how they use it, and become dependent on it to cope with daily life.
I agree wholeheartedly and these dependencies that are composed of underlying stresses, issues, internal pain or whatever you want to call it, need to be uncovered, addressed and overcome.
Thats what part two of The Freedom to Recover is all about. You dont need to surrender your will or admit powerlessness but rather do the exact opposite. You need to utilize methods that will empower you to recreate your view of the world and your ability to deal with these underlying factors.
People are doing every day and so can you!
Peace out,
Rolf Ankermann
Guilty as charged.
" Who me Ma? I didn't touch the cookie jar! :)
Spontaneous Recovery is an interesting phenomenon but a bit of a dead end I feel. Whats the answer, do absolutely nothing let 5% recover on their own and screw the rest? Very few people change with no support I say choices are great and hang on to whatever works. The loudest voices on this subject sometimes have something to sell :)"
I love you economy of style. It took you 4 sentences to say what I was trying to say in countless paragraphs. Me thinks, I might need to practice not trying come across so smart.
Dependency on alcohol, also known as alcohol addiction and alcoholism4, is a chronic disease. The signs and symptoms of alcohol dependence include
A strong craving for alcohol.
Continued use despite repeated physical, psychological, or interpersonal problems.
The inability to limit drinking.
Just sayin.
when someone is addicted to cocaine, their brain becomes physically dependent on cocaine to feel 'normal'. their brain stops producing certain neurotransmitters because the addict is dumping cocaine into their body, which satisfies numerous receptors in the brain. this is a physical dependency. the additional issue is with the reward cycle in the brain, which reinforces behavior. the act of obtaining and using the drug releases certain neurotransmitters in the brain that target the pleasure and reward centers of the brain, reinforcing the action.
when someone is addicted to gambling, there is not a physical addiction to the act of gambling. the addiction is the reward cycle, the neurotransmitters that are released when the behavior pattern is followed. think about how someone is referred to as an 'adrenaline junkie'. they seriously enjoy the 'high' they get from stuff like jumping out of a plane because of the neurotransmitters and chemicals that are released in the brain.
that is why switching addictions is a real issue. it's not just the physical addiction to a substance like alcohol or cocaine, it's the behaviors. it's the addiction to keeping the pleasure center of the brain stimulated. imho, the point of surrendering and/or admitting powerlessness is about admitting that the substance or behavior has control over you - you are not controlling it. once you realize that and discontinue the addictive behaviors, you open yourself up to address any underlying issues and break the cycle of addiction.
also, psychology.com is a privately owned website; it would not be considered academic or suitable for research purposes.
Disease happen to people, their not self-inflicted. Again, nobody has answered this question.....Name one disease that you can arrest IMMEDIATELY by making a choice.
The bottle doesn't have arms and legs with which to walk over and pour itself down your throat. You do that and it's a choice, no other disease does that. Does the bottle just magically go from the liquor store shelf into your car?
I totally get why people choose it, I figured out why I did, but choose it I did, diseases aren't that talented.
Oh, the quote from page 174.......Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our "suggested" Twelve Steps" to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant!"
...........So for you newcomers, NO PRESSURE, leave whenever you want.......your choice....... Oh, sure, no problem, I choose DEATH......
Why not? Completely recovered doesn't mean cured. If you were truly cured, you would be just like most people who can enjoy a glass of wine with dinner and be satisfied. Cured would mean you could drink with impunity, stop when you started to "feel it" because you don't enjoy "feeling it", and leave a half-finished drink on the table without even thinking about it. That's what social drinkers do, and THAT is unfathomable to me. I am not cured, but I am quite fully recovered, thank you.
Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine it means to "work a program" on a daily basis? And I use the word imagine intentionally since despite the fact that you attended meetings, you've admitted that you never did the steps, and so therefore you never actually "worked a program" yourself. For me it's about living according to certain principles in order to maintain my peace of mind. Nothing to do with drinking anymore, and certainly nothing as tedious or solemn or time-consuming as you make it all out to be. I am well-past the fear of drinking again; but like millions of other people on this planet, I believe in a higher power, utter prayers, try to stay grateful, and do the next right thing. For me there's just not much more to it than that.
no one chooses to be an addict, and your insinuation of such is really kind of messed up. one doesn't choose to be an addict, and it is not a self-inflicted disease. whatever the underlying reasons are for picking up in the first place, or continuing to abuse the substance/behavior of choice, it is a coping skill. not until one is sober and clear minded enough to address those underlying issues can one successfully address their addiction. of course, then life become about learning how to cope with situations one used to use their substances or behaviors for. which is why most people are in recovery and learning as each day comes, and never considered recovered.
Page 56 Big Book "Without help it is too much for us. But here is One who has all the power-That one is God. May you find him now.
So there you have it. Only God can cure you. It's in Black and white
Step 3 Made a decision to turn (surrender) our WILL and our LIVES over to the care of God.
So you as an individual are powerless and you need to abdicate your Free Will.....
If that works for you, fantastic, but it is faith healing and it should not be the #1 go to method for overcoming dependencies over cognitive based methods.
Can't you just be glad for those of us who have recovered and are recovering, no matter how we did it?
But my, how times have changed. These days, in my area at least, every court and all the treatment centers use AA as a dumping ground, ordering minor offenders and anyone with a good insurance policy to attend meetings. I firmly believe that AA is for people who want it, not people who need it, and NOBODY should EVER be forced to go. The result around here has been that a number of meetings now have gone underground, aren't listed in the book and have become quite selective about who they let in. A rant for another time, perhaps. Just please don't count me, my husband or my sponsor (nearly 70 years of sobriety between us) among those long-timers who try to guilt you into sticking around. If you don't want we have, then leave! (We'll still be here if you ever change your mind.)
whatever you've done to stay sober, i hope it's worked for you and continues to work for you. just not sure why you're here arguing with people.
Finally, nobody in the program can define what a higher power is for you. I think too many people get hung up on what other people think it means. Suppose I said that for me God is just an acronym for Good Orderly Direction, nothing supernatural about it. Yeah, I think that's exactly what got me through. Kinda blows a hole in your faith-healing theory.
The AA's God is the Abrahamic God. There are 100's if not 1000's of direct references to Him in the 2 AA Gospels.
Step 4 isn't about uncovering underlying issues, it's a freaking sin list of your moral shortcoming or "character defects". Step 5 is nothing more than CONFESSION. The whole thing reeks of right wing Christian Fundamentalism.
Making amends and doing the next right thing is hardly unique to AA, it's what any mature adult does.
Step 6 "Were entirely ready to have GOD remove all these defects of character."
That would be GOD, not good orderly direction, nice try,
7 Humbly asked HIM to remove our shortcomings (SINS)
So pray to God to relieve you of your sins. Please, Please, tell me how any of this is NOT COMPLETELY RELGIOUS FAITH HEALING.
And I'm sorry, alcohol has affected people in the same ways since the beginning of time, 1953 was no different. The books were written for anyone with "a desire to quit drinking" not just the hospital drunks. If the books are dated and don't hold up, how about replacing them.
What I found was the promise that I didn't need to be burdened with guilt, shame, anger, remorse, self-contempt...all the reasons I found it difficult to stay away from drinking. I didn't know any better. Drink was in the driving seat and my brain was just along for the ride. Put the drink down, leave it down and I would have a chance at clearing up the garbage I had created for myself as well as the rubbish that had been piled on me by others. No miracles, no tricks, no crossed fingers or wishful thinking. Plenty of depth and weight to that answer. It rang all the bells and continues to do so today.
And that's pretty much what I have today. I can look myself in the eye. I can let you be who you want to be. I can lend you a hand if you want it. I can say no when I need to. I watch my Ps and Qs...mostly :) And as a curious by-product, I don't struggle with alcohol - most days. And on days when I do I have lots of sober friends who have walked that walk, listen out of compassion because they know how it feels.
I couldnt really give a monkeys if someone else thinks I could have done a better job in another way...I know what I had to do and I know what's changed in my own reality. I was there, I saw it with my own eyes :) Curious thing though I have met plenty of grandiose folk who think they understand what it is to be me, better than I do. That they can explain what I have been through better than I can.
I like to hear people talk about what helped them get and stay sober. Its inspiring and I can usually find some similarities. Someone tells me they just made a decision and the rest was easy...well that doesn't fit with my experience but good for them :) e, I prefer to listen out to the folks who seemed to have struggled the way I struggled, faced the same reality I had to wake up and face each day - inside and out.
Stopping drinking...hardest thing I ever did. It was and still is painful to live in an un-anaestheticized reality but its the only sane choice I can make. Has lots of benefits but there was a pain barrier I had to push through first...physical, emotional, psycholgical, spiritual...every which way.
Do I think its a illness? Sure. Could you call it a disease? Why not. Have I read and debated the science and surveys? Yup. Did that make me happier? No. :)
The best word I ever hears to describe the complexities of Alcoholism was BioPsychoSocial...in other words its a problem derived from a combination of factors Biological, Social and Psychological. Or in laymans terms "good luck sorting that mess out with a bellyful of booze and a head full erroneous maladaptive defense mechanisms" :)
If AA works for some. ..beautiful. if SMART recovery works for another...superb. If church did for you and counselling did for her...Fandabbydoozie.
AA works for me, quirks and all. Do I care if someone else follows the same path? Not a bit. Do I want to listen to people bad mouth and snipe at it? Nope. Real, real boring.
P
P
Now you're making me laugh! Like Paul says, the idea that you know more about me, how I've interpreted the steps, where my head was at when I did them, and what my higher power is like is pretty outrageous! That's some ego you've got there, but I certainly see why you have to stick to promotion rather than attraction. Maybe I shouldn't laugh...it's really kind of pathetic.