Nemo, get some backbone. If you're going to insult me, admit it.

And, silly you to think you know what my life has been like for the last 20 years because you took 60 seconds to read my profile.

Next time you're whispering to thin air to your higher power, ask it for some sense of reasoning.

True for you maybe G2K but there are many of us here who prove that ain't so!

Number 4940, the ability to admit powerlessness, which in my case was very obvious to me and everyone else, is to allow us to find a power by which we could live - hence the rest of the steps. If it's not your thing cool, if what you're doing works for ya then rock and roll. That ensures that no one had to waste their time 12 stepping you, they could go see someone who needs what we got!

i never could drink a drink..after one i wanted the bottle,had to get another and another until i was out cold..nothing matters after i get the irst one in me..not rent,the job,myself nothing but more..if that is not powerlessness i dont know what else to call it..took years thinking it was just a few drinks just a few drugs to realize something was wrong..took a lotta,lotta more years to realize i was truely powerless and it had to start there in admitting it.

serenity,

if you are powerless, then you are (by definition) UNABLE to seek help or find any power.

there's no simpler way to explain this. it's like once you believe something that makes no sense, you can't make sense of something that does.

NUMBER4940 - the powerlessness refers to loss of power of choice regarding alcohol.

Someone who admits this is not admitting powerlessness over everything - including the choice to seek out a solution!

i am unable to seek help or have any power unless after the first drink...so my power comes from gaining that knowledge in a/a not to take the first one...that empowered me..to this day if i have a drink im back there unable to stop''powerless'' until i pass out and not have another..by realizing i cant..thats enough 4 me not too.

nicky,

if you're powerless over whether to drink alcohol, then you would forever give in and drink.

to resist or quit requires power and control. believe it or not, that's what it took and takes for anyone and everyone to stop over drinking.

Number,

You discuss in detail in your profile a frankly mind-boggling list of psychiatric disturbances which includes " debilitating paranoia." I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't comment on any of that. But you didn't mention alcoholism at all, so I doubt that we're even on the same page here.

Nemo,

there are details listed under the "alcoholism" section of my profile. you must click "open" to the right of the word "alcoholism" to expand the treatment details.

as far as the psychiatric conditions' details, there are more details there because there are more treatments that i've tried.

Number,

OK, now I see it. Good luck with cutting back on the wine.

It doesn't mean powerless completely, it means powerless over alcohol you dumbells. It is hopeless to think you have power to quit or to control it, I found hope when I finally accepted the fact that I can't and that I needed help and a power greater than me to stop. You said number, that if you're powerless then you'd never stop drinking, that's not true, you find power in God and AA to stop. I guess you and gunther just can't find that power and can't understand the concept of God at all. That where your problem is. If you can't find spirituality then doing the steps and quitting drinking would be difficult as hell because it is the key I believe. AA doesn't convince you you're powerless, years of trying to control it and quit on your own does. Accepting that is where you find hope and power.

well rainy, maybe you should contact the two quacks who wrote that awful book of nonsense and have them re-explain the "powerless" concept.

according to you, you have power if you attend meetings for the rest of your life, and you have power through some invisible force that you call 'god.'

and also, if you do not attend those meetings enough, then that same 'god' that helped you become sober will so graciously make you a drunk all over again! wow!

just like those religious folks. they think if they don't pray or go to church, that 'god' will punish them! or if they don't give 10% of their earnings, 'god' will punish them.

that's some 'god' for you! sounds like 'he' really loves you! 1) as long as you throw money at him, and 2) worship him

sounds like a lot of corrupt people in the world i already know.

get real rainy. you are the real dumbbell...thinking you (unlike me) understand the concept of 'god.' as if you've met him or know someone who does.

i know from what i have read apparently gunthar and numbers have thier own opinion on what aa is and the purpose of the 12 steps. It doesnt match anyones exp here so it probably is futile to spend any time out of anyones day to explain concepts and principles to them. gunthars mentor chris prentis claims a 84 percetn success rate but that was gotten from him making phone calls to 1000 of his former paitents. he said that 84 percent of them are still sober after 5yrs. none of that has been confirmed by a outside source to confirm it. plus his facility didnt open up till 2001 so for this to be possible he would of had to from the time of the phone call had atleast 840 ppl have gone thru his facility and been sober since 2002. his statistics dont add up to 84 percetn success rate of ppl who have been sober over 5yrs. do the math for your self. I dont know if his program works or not it just doesnt add up. statistics are a great advertising tool but professionals in the treatment industry scoff at his claim as stated by the article nemo provided by the la times in 2007. But hey if chris book got gunthar sober than cool. Maybe it works. all i know is this i was powerless over alcohol before i got to aa this time in 2001. It was killin me and it kept me its slave. now if im not mistaken gunthar has said the same thing was his exp. i was defeated and went back to the only place i got any long term sobriety aa. this time it worked. I found the power i lacked thru the 12 steps as it is outlined in the big book of aa. when i looked back at my 3 previous times in aa i could see where i either took no action or i took and did half measures. neither of those worked for a alcoholic of my type. wether gunthar or numbers ever belives this is none of my buisness what is my buisness is to share that in my exp aa works for those who have done it and it doesn work for those who cant or wont do it. seems like i have more in common with everyone here even the aa bashers and non aa bashers that i could see before. maybe were all just delusional right now and it doesnt reall matter. if it works work it to the best of your ability that goes for anything. i know that most days if not all now i live comftorable in my own skin and for me to do that sober is trully a miracle that god u ppl aa good sponsorship and sponsee's ahev done for me. wihtout i couldnt have done this and probably would have died yrs ago. god bless all

Nowhere in AA literature does it say that those who don't attend meetings or even enough of them will drink again. The only way a recovered alcoholic will drink again is by failing to live a spiritual life. If we fail in that the natural consequence is that we once more become selfish and self-centred, in that condition our lives become so painful that we drink once again. God gave me the opportunity to live a different life, if I don't live it, then I alone am responsible for the consequences.

Those who cannot stay sober unless they are at meetings every day have never worked the steps and had a spiritual awakening, therefore meetings are all that's left for them.

The comparison between AA and religious people is ludicrous because it generalises the experience of some few in both religion and AA - the description is really that of superstitious nonsense, I've seen it in both places - sad but true, but it by no means covers us all. Stop hanging around with such people if that's your experience.