I agree with you, there is a big difference between wouldn't and couldn't. At the end of my drinking I would gladly have stopped it was the thing that I wanted the most, but I couldn't. I had definitely lost the power to choose.

Sounds like your sponsee hasn't gotten step 1. Powerless.

I agree with you couldn't vs wouldn't, no control vs control.

BUT, if your sponsee views drinking in general as a choice subject entirely to willpower without having an understanding of the illness and of addiction in general, there may be some self blame going on. Choice of words may be an indicator of the accountability your sponsee feels for her own actions.

If I "could not" stop drinking, I was in the throes of the insane physical craving and mental obsession such that the rationale required to WILL anything was non-existent. IMO, in the throes, we lack the FACULTY to choose to put it down. However, if your sponsee THINKS that she SHOULD be able to WILL herself to put it down and thinks her WANT is not NEED, she may see it as "I wouldn't".

Sick as we are as newcomers, it might be wise to set the semantics aside and focus on educating her about the disease and about the premise of AA and a "power greater than ourselves". To say I "would not" implies I have the power if I choose it. "I am not powerless".

'I just couldn't do it anymore' to me means defeatism. Like banging my head against the brick wall. Like there has been a realisation...a eureka moment if you like.

'I just wouldn't do it anymore' to me seems like it is my control. Yep, like I had a choice. Also, that I am not ready to let it go......yet.

Would be interesting to hear what the sponsee thinks about unmanageability.

I believe there is a big difference between couldnt and wouldnt. You couldnt stop a train from going off a cliff, you couldnt stop a hurricane, you couldnt stop lots of things. You/ I /we CAN stop drinking. We can't stop breathing or we'd die. We can stop drinking. We choose not to. Even if its a diseased choice, its still a choice. I know that's totally contrary to the idea that alcoholism is a disease, and I believe it is, but it involves choices. Good and bad ones. And we can choose differently.

I have found that the Johns Hopkins questionnaire is useful:

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/tests/l/blquiz_alcohol.htm

Also, when dealing with someone new I always keep the third tradition in mind and I remind them that it is not like booze is a necessary food source that we can't live without ... trying to stay on the water wagon fir 90 days isn't going to give them scurvy!

:-)

Agreed. Words mean things.

Hello Michele,
I would not worry too much about the difference in words. Its how she feels now that is important. Getting her to write down a short piece about her understanding of Step 1 would give you an idea about whether she has fully accepted that she cannot drink again; if she harbours any doubts about this, going further is pointless.

The thought of coulda, woulda, shoulda, power of choice, recovered (etc.), really, really wear me out.
In knowing alcohol will fer sure kill me or make me do one healthy prison bit is enough for me. The rest just hurts my brain, been there thought all that for 20 some years, complicated will kill this alcoholic.
rule 62 rules

The person probably doesn't understand, or hasn't experienced, the powerless of the disease.

I thought I could not stop drinking, I felt like I could not stop drinking, but I could stop drinking and I did.

It was my choice to drink, it was my choice to quit, and it is my choice to never drink again.

Can you also choose the next thought that comes up in your head?

Maybe one or two of them when you concentrate enough. Who is the one who chooses those thoughts that come up out of nowhere? Probably little choice there. Who is the one who chooses how you're feeling right now? Probably no choice there either.

Forget about choice. It doesn't exist. You think you have a choice, but that's nothing more then the next thought that's coming up out of nowhere. Your next thought will also likely be, "like hell I don't have a choice". Maybe anger will follow. Conditioned stuff. No choice there either.

Thank you for all your replys. I like the idea of a short "essay" on step 1 and powerlessness.

Thanks again!

Not always being able able to choose the next thought that comes into my head does not mean that i have no choices. That is faulty logic.

I am not (just) my thoughts or feelings. Thoughts do not rule my choices.

In my world, I have choices and free will. If you choose not to, then have fun with that.

I was clueless about my alcoholism and a lot of the words had no meaning to me. Even though I was willing, the fact my sponsor stuck with me arguing and questioning through 1-4 was a miracle in itself.

A lot of the steps made more sense to me as I put them into practice over the following years. 'More shall be revealed' came to have many meanings to it for me. Great to hear your active in service Michele, and I love that your asking questions. :)

Who's the I Jersey? Is there really thoughts that someone inside has? Or is there just thoughts?

Try to find out what this thing is, inside you, that claims to be choosing thoughts.

My understanding is that there is only thought. That there is only sensation. That there is only the next cognitive phenomena. That there is only seeing, hearing, tasting, etc.

That these experiences just keep arising one at a time in a never ending stream.

That this stream of experience gives the creates the impression/feeling that there is an I inside that is doing all this experiencing.

You cannot choose.

Without choice, what are you left with. Nothing! God, the Universal spirit is doing all this.

All you can really do, is either be aware of the experiences as they occur, or continue to believe that there is someone inside you that is doing all your experiencing.

The problem with a belief in an I is that it carries a great deal of baggage, pain and suffering along with it.