Surely Tradition 3 makes it dead simple Nicky. "The only requirement for membership..."

I find the atheism thing interesting, it's come up recently talking to someone else I have a lot of respect for. You have and you do teach me a lot about this way of life as someone who seems to be living it so it makes no odds at all IMHO.

But then maybe that says the "A" word is a bit of an unnecessary fight/point to make? You must have a pretty basic conception of your own, even a philosophical one eh?

No soapbox lectures from me, interested in what you have to say ;)

Say hello to Norff Laandun for me :o)

P

Any atheist that wants to stop drinking is welcome. Don't see a thing to stop them...

Hugs,
Dennis

As an atheist I have tried AA on a couple of occasions. I have always felt very welcomed and assured that a belief system is not required to be an AA member. The problem is, that surrounded by people who use a belief system (believing in a higher power), undermined my personal growth towards NOT living with in the confines of a belief framework. So, I actually found that AA worked against me. Having said that, I also think that it is possible not to let that sort of thing bother you too much. But it is tricky - the further you become involved with AA and the more seriously you take the steps, the more you come to grapple with this - at least I did. Some people in AA - most people - insist that since your "higher power" can "just" be you, growing that belief in yourself is what it is all about. I could live with that I suppose. If I try AA again, I'll take that with me. But for now, I'm going to try to reach out like this.

I don't see any reason why not. It's up to us to envision and come up with our own Higher Power - it can be of our own understanding. I know a man with nine years who refers to the Universe as his Higher Power. I know a witch, who uses goddesses and other things as her Higher Power. I know several others who don't say the Lord's Prayer, but say something privately during meeting wrap ups.

I am interested in those atheists in AA's opinions and outlooks!

Ooh I'll say this. Belief systems aside...God for me is a convenient word for something that's very hard to explain or describe. It's a felt thing that I hear and see related in lots of different ways.

P

Quite a bit of food for thought with this topic. Looking at it from my own perspective (someone without any religious background, apart from the usual hatch, match and dispatch attendances at church) I felt quite fortunate on this subject when coming into AA.

I was able to consider it, I think, fairly open-mindedly because I didn't think about the importance of spirituality too much beforehand. I did form a few negative "opinions" about what I thought I knew about religion but had no real issues with God nor any baggage from a religion based past.

I'd often wanted to be convinced of God but couldn't quite seem to get there for the longest time - it required me putting aside my erroneous demands for Him to come to me completely on my terms. That's what the issue really was and so I had been a bit of wavering soul on the subject to that point.

I personally believe that if a person is willing to open their mind to new possibilities, atheist or not, and embrace change, then all is good. AA or no AA, atheist or not. Rigidity is dangerous to mental wellbeing in my opinion.

Sure, why not? I know a couple of atheists who have stayed sober in AA for years. They use the group as their higher power.

Part of the beauty of the program for me is that nobody tells you what your higher power has to be. My definition has evolved over time. I lean pagan anyway, and my husband (22 years sober) leans Native American. I have a translation of the lord's prayer from the original Aramaic, and it's nothing like what anyone says at the end of the meeting.

Even the church I attend (when I go!) welcomes atheists. From whose standpoint are you wondering about "belonging?"

Interesting replies so far, thanks.

I was asking from my own standpoint Laura. I have been in AA for about 13years and owe my life to the steps, power greater than my "self" and a spiritual way of life however i am an atheist.

I know that as per trad 3 i fulfill the requirements for membership but my beliefs, the way I understand the steps etc mean that quite often I seem to have a very different way of looking at things from an awful lot of people that I hear in meetings. Sometimes recently that has been playing into a feeling of not really belonging.

In a lot of ways this doesn't worry me at all as I consider it to be just another part of my growth and spiritual development but in order for it to be part of growth I am very interested to hear about the way other people see things.

Hey Nicky,

Just a thought - you've EXPERIENCED a power greater than "self" right? So that there's the beauty, don't need nobody to translate it for you or tell you what it should mean...and that for me is truly AA, truly a spiritual experience of whatever variety. You read William James right? What were your thoughts? I try not to let other people's opinions on this get in the way of the fact that for me, we talk about a common experience, we just describe it in different languages sometimes. Like the blind men in the room with de elephant :o)

If this post is in any way condescending or conceited my apologies. I just got it with both barrels tonight from someone close, character well and truly assasinated. Oof! It hurt and then some hehe. Still not sure what to think TBH

P

Hey Paul

The great thing for me is that I am pretty secure with my spiritual beliefs, concepts and practices so I don't worry about that. I am happy with what I believe and the fact that it isn't any kind of deity, that my HP is not an individual and isnt interventionist in any way is cool with me. My own spiritual journey is all good I just sometimes wonder about how different it is from most of what I hear in AA and whether that makes a difference to me as a member of AA. Sometimes I think it definitely doesnt and at other times I feel less secure.

Sorry to hear you got it from both barrels tonight. If you need anyone to vent at then PM me anytime.

Here's the Big Book Online read chapter 4 it talks about the atheist or agnostic .


http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/

Hi, Nicky, I've always been struck by the spiritual foundation and deep connection with the principles and fellowship of AA in your posts. So it's kind of jarring that you sometimes go through the same "disconnect" the rest of us do! Maybe it's a common thread of the "alcoholic personality", to feel somehow different from other people and not sure we belong with them.

I've seen the entire range of spiritual beliefs in AA, and the same wide range of how vocal they are. My own experience was that the second step happened to me independently of my thinking and my emotions. I was struggling with all the God s**t I just didn't buy into, and that I resented. Then I realized I had been going to AA meetings for months, working the steps with a sponsor -- my actions demonstrated that I believed a power great than myself could restore me to sanity. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't believe it. My intellect and my emotions were not the foundation of my belief: my actions were.

Your actions, Nicky, show me that you have a belief that does not depend on what name or label anyone may have for it. It is real and it is powerful, and you belong in AA because of what you have to offer!

I don't know that I can add much as the thoughts shared thus far are fantastic. I do know several atheists in my home group with long term sobriety. I love what they share and I love their integrity and how true they are to their own beliefs.
So yes, they belong just as we all do so long as we have a desire to stop drinking....

Aha! Love no.12, what SoberDaddy had to say and I concur.

Nicky, I didn't particularly much believe in anything when I found AA. I knew I was in serious trouble and needed help.Just went with it. Did I belong? I never really thought of myself as belonging to AA or not belonging to AA. The fellowship of AA I found was the one that welcomed anyone with a desire to stop drinking and that was me.

I do know I no longer felt alone so in a sense, that may have been when I did feel like I belonged. The rest I'd probably say no I don't belong because I like to explore and form my own thoughts and opinions. That does not mean that I don't have a place in AA or in helping other alcoholics as they helped me.

So to answer your question, I don't have one lol. If there's an atheist out there, I'd certainly encourage them to keep an open mind and just be willing to explore for themselves.