Sure isn't my experience either sounds like he's pretty confused and why there is a lot of relapse within the group. It is said the steps are only suggested but for me it was mandatory to get the" psychic change" you mentioned. If I was you I wouldn't get caught up from someone the that's more than likely one of the people that relapse.

This is my favorite read of all AA material and puts it all into perspective.

Personality Change"It has often been said of A.A. that we are interested only in alcoholism. That is not true. We have to get over drinking in order to stay alive. But anyone who knows the alcoholic personality by firsthand contact knows that no true alky ever stops drinking permanently without undergoing a profound personality change." We thought "conditions" drove us to drink, and when we tried to correct these conditions and found that we couldn't do so to our entire satisfaction, our drinking went out of hand and we became alcoholics. It never occurred to us that we needed to change ourselves to meet conditions, whatever they were.

Hope this helped.

Thanks gjm. I enjoyed the passage from AA literature. Where can I find it?

"as bill sees it" page1

Among todays incoming A.A. members, many have never reached the advanced stages of alcoholism, though given time all might have.

Most of these fortunate ones have had little or no acquaintance with delirium, with hospitals, asylums, and jails. Some were drinking heavily, and there had been occasional serious episodes. But with many, drinking had been little more than a sometimes uncontrollable nuisance. Seldom had any of these lost either health, business, family, or friends.

Why do men and women like these join A.A.?

The seventeen who now tell their experiences answer that question. They saw that they had become actual or potential alcoholics, even though no serious harm had yet been done.
They realized that repeated lack of drinking control, when they really wanted control, was the fatal symptom that spelled problem drinking. This, plus mounting emotional disturbances, convinced them that compulsive alcoholism already had them; that complete ruin would be only a question of time.

Seeing this danger, they came to A.A. They realized that in the end alcoholism could be as mortal as cancer; certainly no sane man would wait for a malignant growth to become fatal before seeking help.

Therefore, these seventeen A.A.s, and hundreds of thousands like them, have been saved years of infinite suffering. They sum it up something like this: We didnt wait to hit bottom because, thank God, we could see the bottom. Actually, the bottom came up and hit us. That sold us on Alcoholics Anonymous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz1ntKkWitQ&feature=related

The Book implies as g said Not drinking is a wonderful cornerstone to rely on and build on ..without that all can be lost

If I didn't "clean house" and work the steps beyond Step 3 I may not drink, but I would be filled with anger and fear. I don't want to or have to live that way today.

So, yes, the steps are a suggested program of recovery. But for me, they were a necessity.

A daily reprieve is all we have. This is not something we do once. We have to live it every day. As was said, this is all about changing the person who first walked into the rooms of AA.

By practicing the 12 steps of recovery we find ourselves with a "game plan" for living our lives. I never had a game plan for anything. I practice these steps in all of my affairs and consequently do not find it necessary to take a drink. If you want to change the way you think, you simply must change the things you do.
Greg

Hello ScarletAngel,

Any alcoholic who maintains that it is impossible for him or her to relapse is on dangerous ground, regardless of how many Steps have been completed. Living by the suggested principles allows for a daily reprieve from alcoholism but who knows what tomorrow will bring.

There is quite a lot of misunderstanding about the Steps at AA meetings and this is no surprise, considering that people have moved away from steps and instead, prefer to talk endlessly about their drinking stories, broken relationships, lost jobs etc. In the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous, people were often assigned a sponsor and brought through the programme as soon as possible, and the result was that about 75% of those people recovered from alcoholism. Today, the emphasis is often on meetings and talk of Steps is avoided at all costs, and the relapse rate has increased accordingly. The Big Book sets down a solution to the alcohol problem but nowhere does it say: These are the meetings we attended; instead it states: These are the STEPS we took.

Today, I would not generalise and maintain that everyone needs steps in order to recover. I know that there are alcoholics who have never been to and AA meeting and who probably know nothing about steps but yet, they have many years of sobriety. Granted, many of them are not leading happy lives and people who live with them sometimes wish that they were actually drinking. However, for many alcoholics, where all other methods have failed, it takes that spiritual awakening that comes about through the Twelve Steps.

Steps 1, 2 and 3 are only giving information about the problem and the means of recovery and therefore very little will change as a result of doing those first three steps. Relapse occurs when the mental obsession for alcohol, which has been described as a form of insanity, is yet to be removed or has been allowed to return through neglect. By Step 10, we are told that sanity will have been restored or in other words, the obsession that leads to the first drink is gone. This state of mind is achieved by taking action, through Steps 4 to 9 and I have seen plenty of people relapse during this period. Once that spiritual awakening or personality change occurs the person is unlikely to relapse, providing that he or she takes further action.

The action that will guarantee sobriety comes through Steps 10, 11 and 12, where the spiritual part of the programme is strengthened. The Steps are carefully laid out in a particular sequence for a good reason and it would be impossible to do it right by picking and choosing bits here and there. Information is carried from one Step into the next so following the correct sequence is vital.

It should be borne in mind that there are people at AA meetings who have gone almost to the end of the line with alcoholism and there are others who are just in the early stages of the illness. Indeed, there are some people at AA meetings who are not actually addicted to alcohol at all. For those in the second and third groups, it may well be that they only need Steps 1, 2 and 3 or maybe just Step 1. This is where there is a grave danger for people who are further advanced into alcoholism; they look at the ones who find it easy to do and lose hope when they themselves continuously relapse. They fail to realize that for them, without the Steps there is very little hope for their recovery. Without that spiritual awakening that comes about through taking the suggested action, they are likely to drink again.

Well there are 12 steps. I've often heard the recipe analogy and think its apt. If you follow the first three steps on the back of the toll house chips package...and throw that in the oven you get nothing. Just a mess. You don't use some of the ingredients and expect the same result or follow part of the process.
Personally I had my first real change in step 5, more in steps 6 and 7. Amazing things started happening in steps 8 and 9 and I wouldnt have wanted to miss out on 10-12. In fact all three are a major part of my daily routine.
My sponsor says that we have a daily reprieve contingent on maintaining a fit spiritual condition. I believe that. Its also *in* the BB:)
We've had members relapse with alott of sobriety and others are in their late 20's and 30's of sobriety and seem solid and moving forward. Personally I don't want to test the whys. I don't know which part of my program I could give up and not relapse but I'm not intending to find out either!
So I work the steps on a daily basis, to the best of my ability that day. I strive to practice the principals in ALL my affairs.

'One of our members shared that it is impossible to relapse once you have completed the first three steps. My opinion is that this is mistruth.'

I agree with your opinion. For me, it took the working of all the 12 steps, honestly and openly to become spiritually well and get a daily reprieve. As you say, the work does not stop there. It is a continuous daily program...a program for life. Only by keep doing the work, and keeping spiritually well, will I be happy.

For me, when I hadn't done the steps, I was angry and full of 'pour me's '. Today I am so grateful that life is not like that (well most days! haha).

Thank you for all your replies.

Actually, the BB address this on page 66. To paraphrase, the BB states that resentments are the "number one" offender. And if we live with resentments, we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. The insanity returns and we drink again, and with us, to drink is to die.

I have decided that as a member of AA, I must carry the message that is presented in the Big Book. And I feel that when I hear things counter to the program of recovery of AA, I should set things people straight. So I did at last night's meeting, and apparently offended 2 members of the group, as they walked out after my share.

That got me into some F'd up thinking. What was my motive for speaking in such a manner? Was it really to let the several newcomers in the group know the true message of AA? Or was it to assert my need to be right (a character defect I continually struggle with)? I started questioning if I was even correct in my interpretation of the BB, and started doubting my recovery.

After a long talk with my sponsor this morning, I am confident that I am to continue carrying the message of AA, and if people are offended my that message, it is out of my control. I will also continue to ask my HP to remove my character defect of arrogance and ego, the help me become a humble servant of His will.

I love this program, it saved my life and I will continue to share it in anyway I can.

Peace, love and serenity,
Scarlet

LIKE

to your latest post Scarlet:-)

Hello ScarletAngel,

It is good that you are standing by the programme as presented in the Big Book and that too would be my approach. However, AA does not claim to be the only path to recovery from alcoholism and I have come to believe in the importance of recognising that even for people who are in AA, there may be other ways.

I am careful these days when sharing at meetings to suggest that what has worked for me may work for other people, but that whatever has been working for those people up until now is the right way for them. Once I got some knowledge of the programme I became a strong advocate of doing it according to what is in the Big Book and thought that the only thing that was necessary for recovery was for someone like me to deliver the message to other alcoholics. I was of course completely blind to the whole meaning of the programme, as I could not fix anyones alcohol problem anymore than I could fix my own. If I sponsored someone and that person recovered from alcoholism, it was through the will of God rather than my doing. Likewise, if a person did not get it, that was also the will of God. It is of course necessary for me to do all that I can in order that God can work through me, but success or failure is out of my hands.

The Twelve Steps, if worked to the level suggested in the Big Book will bring the will of the alcoholic close to the will of God, but I know that as an individual, I am unlikely to ever get to that level. I therefore recognise that my knowledge will always be limited and that I should constantly be on guard against assuming that my interpretation or even the words in the Big Book are the only right ways. For that reason, I try to remember that I should tell people about what has worked for me and to suggest that it may work for them too. Even if I strongly believe that some people are mistaken in their approach, I should weigh up my options carefully before deciding that I should correct them. One thing that I have learned is that there have been times where I believed that a person was completely in the wrong and I later found out that they were right.

Sometimes we cannot help it if people get offended but in my opinion it is always better to carry such people along than to have them walking out. If they stay on board, they may some day come to see that there is merit in what you are saying but if they become resentful because they believe rightly or wrongly that they have been offended, your words will fall on deaf ears.

glad to hear your travels with this scarletangel...it is so true that some try to skimp on a program of vigorous action and then they try to show others how to do that same thing...sad state of sick AA meetings is that the message is not the steps and how to work them but to let everyone have a chance to share their shit no matter what it may be....

If it isn't in the Big Book - it isn't.

Yes LindaJean.

One of my grand sponsors favorite mantras is "Can you show me what page that is on?