Journey Through Adultery - 7-26-11
Time for an update. We've experienced a minor setback, and some positive movement forward. And they are both tied together, so let me start back a ways.
My wife, during her affairs, naturally took pictures of the OMen. One of the emotional online affairs sent her pictures of himself...nothing X-rated. I've seen them, just him standing in what I assume is his "estate."
Early on, I asked her to delete all his pictures and take out his phone number, etc. She didn't want to do it. I said at least keep them out of sight, so she doesn't see them all the time, because the whole point of cutting off is to gain some distance and not remember them. But emotionally she wasn't at the stage of wanting to not have something to remember them by. I get it. She fell in love with them, and wanted pictures to remember them by. She didn't think she'd want to totally forget them.
At first this reluctance bugged me. And I could have sneaked onto her phone and deleted them myself, and cleaned him out of the computer, and everywhere else I knew they existed. But I knew that would cause her a lot of anger toward me for forcing the issue.
Since she had cut off contact with the OM, I decided to make this a test issue. So I told her just don't have them where she can easily see them, and at some point she would be ready to delete them. I figured if she arrived at that point, I would know she'd taken a major step forward.
Related to this was she still had the first man friended on MySpace, and the second one friend on Facebook. Neither was ever on or had posted anything in a long time. I checked on occasion to make sure that was the case, that there was no more conversations going on, etc. But I would remind her every once in a while that so-and-so is still your friend on Facebook.
One of the men still friends on FB was a minor emotional affair/sex chat partner online. When she pointed him to her Facebook page, and he saw she was happily married and had kids, he was like, "What are you doing on EP? You're a mom!" I don't know how old he is, but his attitude changed a good bit.
And though she friended him on FB, she would tell him how the marriage rebuilding was going, and he would post back something like, "Hang in there." And that was it. I didn't concern myself too much with him, as he appeared to be distancing himself from her, knowing she was trying to rebuild her marriage.
They hadn't talked for a long time. Then suddenly one evening last week, while she was on FB, he pops up for a chat. And he is wanting to sex chat. Now the thing is, on this site, she had one guy want to sex chat with her, and she said, "No" and ended up turning off the chat function so she didn't have to worry about it. But this guy was different, because they had a "relationship." And she found herself going along with it. She knew she should tell him she can't do this anymore and cut it off, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. She attempted to divert the conversation but that didn't work. Instead, at least at one point she encouraged him by telling him how many times we had had sex that day.
But afterwords, she felt sick about it and was disappointed in herself. That was last Thursday. Friday she told me she had something to confess and then told me what had happened. I thanked her for telling me, and we got into a conversation about why she had such a hard time telling him "no." She didn't justify it, admitting she should have said no, but she felt like she didn't want to disappoint him.
I think this is part of the issue. Once she gets to know someone, she doesn't want to disappoint them. Like early on when she couldn't seem to not respond to any attempt by the OM to contact her. I kept telling her simply don't respond, but she felt that was too rude. When we talked about what she would do if she ran into him at the grocery store or elsewhere, she had difficulty just saying "Sorry, I can't talk to you," and walk away.
One positive to that chat was she said she wasn't at all attracted to sex chatting with him. She didn't get any of the "rush" she did like in the midst of her affair fog. She was glad to know that (and so am I), but she was scared because she couldn't get up the nerve to say, "Sorry, I can't do that." Then log out of FB. She wasn't so concerned about this guy as such, but more what it meant for when and if the OM did run into her, or seek her out again. Would she have the nerve to walk away? To tell him to leave her alone?
One of the things she felt was the issue is she still had an emotional connection with these guys. Even the minor one. She felt strongly not only that she needed to break that, but she wanted to break it. And she started praying that God would show her how to do that.
One of the things I said she needed to do was defriend this guy. The only time he'll contact you is when he wants to sex chat, that much is obvious. She agreed. And when she went to confession this weekend, the priest told her the same thing. He said, unless you're desperate to go to the bathroom, the first thing you do when you get home is logon to FB and defriend him. Which she did.
But I also brought up the fact that one thing she can do to break those emotional bonds is not only distance and time, but getting rid of everything that might remind you of them, including pictures, phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Just like a woman who divorces her husband might throw out all pictures of him, cut him out of pictures with the kids, move, get rid of his stuff, leave as little to remind her of him because she desperately wants to break that emotional bond, and that is one way you do that.
She prayed over it, and though it was hard, she, on her own, without prompting from me, deleted pictures of the guys she had. She has a few more on computers and email to get rid of, but she deleted all the ones off her phone, and on the computer. She also went on to MySpace and FB and defriended anyone associated with the A's.
To me, that's a major step forward. She wants to break these emotional bonds, to forget them. It will still take time, but psychologically, she's done something proactive to speed that process up. And they won't be hanging around, causing triggers when she runs across them.
But we still have to deal with her seeming inability to say "no." I know she can do it. I told her I knew, because she's told me "no" so many times over the years. So I know she can do it. But she wants to get a handle on it, not only in case the OM starts trying to contact her again, but also because some other man may start trying to flirt with her, and she wants to be able to say "no." And mean it.
We'll keep working on it. But I think this last week's events have helped us realize how far she's come, but also how far we still have to go to avoid another incident. But I applaud her for recognizing those emotional bonds are the problem, wanting them to end, and is doing something to bring that about. And that she was being open with me. She could have kept that "minor" incident hidden, but instead confessed it to me and our priest.
I can see her love for me in action. That gives me a lot of comfort, even though we aren't out of the woods. As long as we are working together, there is hope.
My wife, during her affairs, naturally took pictures of the OMen. One of the emotional online affairs sent her pictures of himself...nothing X-rated. I've seen them, just him standing in what I assume is his "estate."
Early on, I asked her to delete all his pictures and take out his phone number, etc. She didn't want to do it. I said at least keep them out of sight, so she doesn't see them all the time, because the whole point of cutting off is to gain some distance and not remember them. But emotionally she wasn't at the stage of wanting to not have something to remember them by. I get it. She fell in love with them, and wanted pictures to remember them by. She didn't think she'd want to totally forget them.
At first this reluctance bugged me. And I could have sneaked onto her phone and deleted them myself, and cleaned him out of the computer, and everywhere else I knew they existed. But I knew that would cause her a lot of anger toward me for forcing the issue.
Since she had cut off contact with the OM, I decided to make this a test issue. So I told her just don't have them where she can easily see them, and at some point she would be ready to delete them. I figured if she arrived at that point, I would know she'd taken a major step forward.
Related to this was she still had the first man friended on MySpace, and the second one friend on Facebook. Neither was ever on or had posted anything in a long time. I checked on occasion to make sure that was the case, that there was no more conversations going on, etc. But I would remind her every once in a while that so-and-so is still your friend on Facebook.
One of the men still friends on FB was a minor emotional affair/sex chat partner online. When she pointed him to her Facebook page, and he saw she was happily married and had kids, he was like, "What are you doing on EP? You're a mom!" I don't know how old he is, but his attitude changed a good bit.
And though she friended him on FB, she would tell him how the marriage rebuilding was going, and he would post back something like, "Hang in there." And that was it. I didn't concern myself too much with him, as he appeared to be distancing himself from her, knowing she was trying to rebuild her marriage.
They hadn't talked for a long time. Then suddenly one evening last week, while she was on FB, he pops up for a chat. And he is wanting to sex chat. Now the thing is, on this site, she had one guy want to sex chat with her, and she said, "No" and ended up turning off the chat function so she didn't have to worry about it. But this guy was different, because they had a "relationship." And she found herself going along with it. She knew she should tell him she can't do this anymore and cut it off, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. She attempted to divert the conversation but that didn't work. Instead, at least at one point she encouraged him by telling him how many times we had had sex that day.
But afterwords, she felt sick about it and was disappointed in herself. That was last Thursday. Friday she told me she had something to confess and then told me what had happened. I thanked her for telling me, and we got into a conversation about why she had such a hard time telling him "no." She didn't justify it, admitting she should have said no, but she felt like she didn't want to disappoint him.
I think this is part of the issue. Once she gets to know someone, she doesn't want to disappoint them. Like early on when she couldn't seem to not respond to any attempt by the OM to contact her. I kept telling her simply don't respond, but she felt that was too rude. When we talked about what she would do if she ran into him at the grocery store or elsewhere, she had difficulty just saying "Sorry, I can't talk to you," and walk away.
One positive to that chat was she said she wasn't at all attracted to sex chatting with him. She didn't get any of the "rush" she did like in the midst of her affair fog. She was glad to know that (and so am I), but she was scared because she couldn't get up the nerve to say, "Sorry, I can't do that." Then log out of FB. She wasn't so concerned about this guy as such, but more what it meant for when and if the OM did run into her, or seek her out again. Would she have the nerve to walk away? To tell him to leave her alone?
One of the things she felt was the issue is she still had an emotional connection with these guys. Even the minor one. She felt strongly not only that she needed to break that, but she wanted to break it. And she started praying that God would show her how to do that.
One of the things I said she needed to do was defriend this guy. The only time he'll contact you is when he wants to sex chat, that much is obvious. She agreed. And when she went to confession this weekend, the priest told her the same thing. He said, unless you're desperate to go to the bathroom, the first thing you do when you get home is logon to FB and defriend him. Which she did.
But I also brought up the fact that one thing she can do to break those emotional bonds is not only distance and time, but getting rid of everything that might remind you of them, including pictures, phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Just like a woman who divorces her husband might throw out all pictures of him, cut him out of pictures with the kids, move, get rid of his stuff, leave as little to remind her of him because she desperately wants to break that emotional bond, and that is one way you do that.
She prayed over it, and though it was hard, she, on her own, without prompting from me, deleted pictures of the guys she had. She has a few more on computers and email to get rid of, but she deleted all the ones off her phone, and on the computer. She also went on to MySpace and FB and defriended anyone associated with the A's.
To me, that's a major step forward. She wants to break these emotional bonds, to forget them. It will still take time, but psychologically, she's done something proactive to speed that process up. And they won't be hanging around, causing triggers when she runs across them.
But we still have to deal with her seeming inability to say "no." I know she can do it. I told her I knew, because she's told me "no" so many times over the years. So I know she can do it. But she wants to get a handle on it, not only in case the OM starts trying to contact her again, but also because some other man may start trying to flirt with her, and she wants to be able to say "no." And mean it.
We'll keep working on it. But I think this last week's events have helped us realize how far she's come, but also how far we still have to go to avoid another incident. But I applaud her for recognizing those emotional bonds are the problem, wanting them to end, and is doing something to bring that about. And that she was being open with me. She could have kept that "minor" incident hidden, but instead confessed it to me and our priest.
I can see her love for me in action. That gives me a lot of comfort, even though we aren't out of the woods. As long as we are working together, there is hope.
Replies
\"Dec. 2010: He tells her he is moving away. She tells me that, and on the last week I tell her not to see him or be alone with him. She ignores this and has lunch with him on the last day before he heads out of town. He asks her for a blow job. She refuses. They eat lunch. She give him a parting hug. He pulls it out and she ends up giving him a blow job. He leaves town\"
This is a lie. It did not happen this way.
@blondegal
Her increased desire for sex happened when the first guy started flirting with her. I guess the sexual tension created by that was like reading a steamy romance novel. Up to that point, we had sex many one to twice a month on average. Overnight, like someone flipped a switch, she started wanting sex all the time, every night, sometimes multiple times a day.
At the time I knew it was from her contact with this first guy. Most surely the new sexual energy she had came from his sex chats with her, though I thought it was only flirting at the time as that was what she told me and I had no reason to think it was more, being naive about this whole thing, and still in full trusting mode. If I had looked at her text then and saw what he was actually saying, I\'m sure it would have become a much bigger deal.
So while I was very uncomfortable with the connection she had with this guy, as you say, I liked the new sex schedule she was on, but figured it would die off within a month or two, especially once he moved out of town. Didn\'t expect it to keep going.
Now, whether she fantasized at the time while we had sex about having sex with the first man, I can only take her word for it as already stated, short of hooking up a mind reading machine to her and learning otherwise.
I might add, that usually when someone has trouble with images of the OP having sex with their spouse, it always appears to be women. For whatever reason, women tend to have these images of the other woman flash before them while having sex, usually causing it to create a problem. I think I had something along those lines once. But certainly not a problem. I have rarely thought about the OM while we have sex. And I\'ve not seen many men come forward to discuss having problems with the same. So while I didn\'t like her connection with him and said as much, I\'ve never concerned myself that much with what she is thinking during sex, and I don\'t think about the OM either except in a handful of instances, and only once did it cause me to not be able to go through with it.
Yes, she hurt me. She knows it. She knows better now about not getting too close to the cliff. Yes, she should have known. I agree. Boundaries should be set far back so one doesn\'t even get close to the edge of the cliff. But she thought she could control it. She was wrong. She thought it was innocent fun, that was just her desires speaking, wanting to rationalize. She had morals that fought for a long time against the desires being stoked into a raging fire. But over a period of months she had put the morals into a compartmentalized part of her life and didn\'t think about the consequences except for brief moments of clarity here and there.
One of the scenarios in \"Not Just Friends\" as it talked about the CS having an affair fit her to a T. Described exactly how she felt while going through all that. How she divided her one life with me from her life with her lover, and kept the two separate. At some point that would have fallen apart, but it didn\'t go on that long.
Yes, it would have been better if she\'d come forward herself and confessed. But she was no where near that frame of mind or clarity. Though she is extremely glad she was caught, in the midst of it she wasn\'t ready to give it up, hoped to keep it hidden for some time. But once she was caught, she had no qualms about leaving the other man and working on the marriage. Emotionally, she was still tied to him, but her tie to me was greater and faced with the choice of me or him, she enthusiastically chose me, and has stuck with it.
But no, we are not out of the wood. I think I\'ve said as much. We\'ve made some very good progress, and I do believe it is worth celebrating the victories. But I know it could all fall apart on one moment of weakness. Sort of like fighting terrorism. You can succeed at preventing twenty or fifty terrorist attacks, but if the 51st one succeeds, none of the others that were prevented really matter much.
But I think our approach is two pronged. One, she has wide boundaries that she will stick to, including no flirting and being very careful about any male friendships, that they be \'friends of the family\" as discussed in \"Not Just Friends\" and she keeps an emotional distance from them.
Two, if anything happens, no matter how small, or how \"bad\" of a violation, she tells me and we work it out. If she hides it, that\'s when it is allowed to fester and grow and get out of control until worse stuff happens. If she\'d told me at the time that the flirting had turned to sex chatting, I might have been more concerned and proactive. I think certainly if she\'d confessed about having oral sex with him before he left town, that would have been a big enough deal that dday would have happened then, and a lot of the EAs and the final PA with the second local guy may have been prevented from happening. Because she kept it secret, I didn\'t know the extent of the problem, so we never sought out counseling or help at that point.
But we can only do what we can do. We\'ll pray, do what we can, and she\'ll need to keep herself far away from anything like what happened. I think now what was theoretical, that her hidden sexual activities might affect our marriage and be hurtful to it, became concrete now that it has actually happened, and she knows another event is likely to end in divorce, or at the minimum a very cold, distant marriage partner. Stay or go, there wont\' be much of a relationship left if I can\'t trust anything she says. She knows that, and will know if she chooses to let something else happen by not keeping boundaries, it is likely the end for us.
Thanks for your support and attempts to help.
@bliindside,
Uh, and you know this for certain because....?
In certain situations, I would agree it very well could be a lie. I would never say with 100% certainty it was for sure a lie unless I had solid evidence that it wasn\'t, just as I wouldn\'t say she is definitely telling the truth short of some evidence it happened just like she said.
And the only evidence I have for that is two things, one solid, the other circumstantial.
The one solid is when she didn\'t know I would read what she was writing, and she got into a conversation about affairs with one of her online EA people because he said he was seriously thinking about having an affair (apparently his wife doesn\'t want sex at all, and he was very frustrated by this and had given up on her, but desperately felt he wanted some and the only way seemed to be to go outside the marriage, he should have gone to counseling, but that is another issue). So she decided, on the one day I happened to have installed a key logger, to confess to her EA partner that she\'d been having an affair on me, and went on to describe to him several of the key pieces of information I listed above. One being that she had had an EA with the first man, and on the day he was leaving town, ended up giving him a blow job.
So, unless she was lying to her EA partner when she didn\'t really have a reason to do so, I would seriously doubt she was lying to me when she told me the exact same story, not knowing what I knew about it. One of my test in her confession is that I already knew most of what she had to confess. Not a lot of the details, but enough to know she\'d given the first guy a blow job and had sex with the second along with several online EAs. Because her story matched what she told the guy the night before, not knowing what I knew or how much I knew (she said she thought I had seen them together or someone I knew had seen them together kissing or something, is what she assumed I knew about it). That story has stayed consistent as has pretty much all of it, though today, both when she didn\'t know I was \"listening\" and when she did. If she was going to lie about it, I would have expected she\'d attempted to leave out parts, not knowing how much I knew, in the hopes a trickle would satisfy me. But not knowing how much I knew, she spilled everything I knew she\'d done from her confession in the chat.
Two, it matched her story and progression, and would have made no sense to not tell me if she\'d had sex with him. Well, for one, they were in a parking lot at a Sonic-like restaurant. They were at the end of a row with no cars close by. Sex would have been obvious whereas a blow job in that situation could be discrete. But she could have left out the part where the found a secluded spot. But if she confessed having sex with the second guy for up to six weeks, why would she bother to not confess sex with the first guy, especially since he\'d moved out of state and we doubt we\'ll ever see him again. As blondegal has said, there\'s not much more of a difference between oral sex and intercourse. I told her to tell me everything, that I didn\'t want any surprises in a few months, because that could really destroy our marriage and any rebuilding we would do. She\'d better get it all out on the table right then, on dday. Which I believe she did as everything matches what she\'d told the other guy, and she told me a lot of details I didn\'t know not mentioned in that chat. It would make no sense and be totally stupid of her to not tell me, knowing what the consequences were if she didn\'t, and knowing she\'d already confessed to a six week affair sex and all. She\'d had no motivation for hiding that info if she was willing to tell me all the other.
But, I\'m not saying she isn\'t lying either. I wasn\'t watching. I didn\'t have a camera following her around. She might have been giving her EA partner a lie too, and told me the exact same one. She may have ensured in an elaborate deception plan at the moment I confronted her so that all details dovetailed nicely into that story, including the first reason she signed up for MySpace was because he was there. Maybe he never left our town or state, and she is secretly seeing him. Any of that could be true. But based on the evidence I do have, not very likely.
Now, if your assertion has any more basis in fact than simply \"all CS\'s lie about this kind of stuff,\" I have no reason to be that concerned about your assertion. Maybe you have a tape recording that was in the car or something? Something more than what I have which leans more to she\'s telling the truth than lying?
But lets just assume for the moment she is lying. Let\'s just say, despite common sense, despite the threat of our marriage ending, for some strange motivation and reason she decided to keep this one fact hidden from me on dday, that she did have sex with the first man.
I would never be able to know, because she\'s never confessed that to anyone, even when she didn\'t know I was going to ever read it. Her story has never changed. So there\'s really no way I could know that happened unless someone I know happened to see them together that day, humping in her backseat. We do know one couple in that town she met him at (it wasn\'t our city) that if they had seen, may have come to me. But the likelihood that I would ever find out she lied about that is nil. I don\'t even know where the OM lives, somewhere in a state far from here is all I or she knows. At best I could contact him if I knew how to, and get his side of the story to see if it matched up. But what BS wants to make contact with the OM who is long gone and chances are you\'ll never see or hear from him again? And could I really trust what he said to be true if it disagreed with my wife\'s rendition?
And it wouldn\'t make what\'s happened any worse as far as the consequences of what happened. She had a PA with him, that\'s about all I really need to know. Admitting to oral was plenty to \"convict\" her on.
So, what\'s the point in saying she\'s lying? If I decide she is, without any solid evidence, despite the evidence I do have says she isn\'t, but I decide since she cheated on me and deceived me during those eight months, that I have to assume everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie, then what?
Our marriage is over. What\'s the point in trying to rebuild. I either decide it is worth rebuilding, because all the evidence I have says she is being open and honest with me, or we jump right to I can\'t trust a word that comes out of her mouth. Then the rebuilding is over, trust has been totally destroyed, end of marriage. Period. If I take the route you are suggesting here, I might as well file for divorce now and give up on it.
And if she is telling the truth, as the evidence suggest, that would be really stupid of me. I\'d be the idiot for not following what I know and my gut. Extracted out all by itself, yeah, I would agree there is a high likelihood she was lying. But knowing what I know, which you don\'t apparently, I highly doubt she\'s lying.
And what\'s the worse that could happen at this point? I tried to rebuild, she wasn\'t totally honest with me and at some point I discover it, and the marriage is over. If she is lying, it ends badly either way at this point. But I can\'t assume she is lying unless I have some solid evidence to counteract what I do know and have.
I know you guys are trying to watch my back, and be helpful in trying to see where I might be missing things. But it saddens me too that it seems so few are willing to rejoice in victories, however small steps they might be, and can only see the negative. That she came to the point of being able to release those pictures and other reminders of them from her life is a great moment of rejoicing to me, because it shows we are making progress, that she is being honest and open, that the past affairs are losing their grip on her. If it falls apart later, it falls apart. That doesn\'t negate that we are making progress right now. Unless you both think her not deleting those pictures would have been better.
I know, she should have done it right after dday. Yes, that would have been best. I could have demanded that she did, and could have probably forced her into it. But I chose to let them stay so i could gage her progress. And now that it has happened, I have one more sign this is working.
And for that I rejoice and am glad. I don\'t mind people giving me a gut check, but it should never be totally negative either. You need to acknowledge the positive, the progress, even if you fear it might not be everything it is cracked up to be because from your perspective she\'s hiding something.
But just to say she\'s lying as if it were fact when you don\'t know what is going on is not helpful. It would be more helpful to say \"I think there is a high likelihood she\'s lying because....\" All you did was accuse her without any proof other than your own experience with your CS. Even \"Not Just Friends\" admits not all CSs or situations are the same. You should avoid such broad, generalizations as if they were a dead certain fact in a specific case, especially when you don\'t know what I know.
Well, I would prefer if you don\'t clump me into the last response, cuz that\'s a generalization too, saying that we are both negative, blah, blah.
Just for the record, I have not talked with bind about this situation, at all.
But to answer your question: yes, I do think the day she came clean, she should have cleaned her entire life, and swept all traces, pictures, signs, and every single solitary things into oblivion. The reason she didn\'t?
You probably caught her off guard, so she wasn\'t ready!
Just admit, that when you directly asked her, whether she was cheating, she said \"not really\"!
Are you kidding me? One would think that the cheater would be like a deer in headlights, eyes bugged out and all!
She wasn\'t nervous, she just lied, so smoothly and easily, until later whyen you told her, \"suppose I told you I know you are\", remember, you were going to do that on your weekend getaway???
So if one lies, from the start????
I consider that trickle theory, because truth did not abound with dignity.
And, i suppose you should consider yourself lucky you did find out whenyou did, cuz I believe that 12-13 times of having sex with this guy, who she even employed to clean houses, could have easily turned into 112-113! But, if you think it\'s gallant to defend your woman, it\'s your prerogative, but then I supposed I\'m confused, cuz you seem to genuinely want input and advice. Good luck to you and yours!
You\'re welcome for the support!
\"I might add, that usually when someone has trouble with images of the OP having sex with their spouse, it always appears to be women. For whatever reason, women tend to have these images of the other woman flash before them while having sex, usually causing it to create a problem. I think I had something along those lines once. But certainly not a problem. I have rarely thought about the OM while we have sex. And I\'ve not seen many men come forward to discuss having problems with the same\"
You don\'t see the men coming forward BECAUSE THEY DIVORCED!.
Men have a MUCH harder time (in general) with the visual and sexual aspect of the affair.
Oh....I don\'t doubt she blew him.....I doubt it happened like that.
Dinner...then whips it out and says suck on this?...and then she did?
Nope...don\'t believe that.
@blondegal,
The second question came like two seconds after her response to the truth. I consider trickle truth to be I learn she had another guy on the line she didn\'t tell me about a few days, months or so after.
Yes, I am very glad I caught it when I did. Yes, she and him would have probably continued on for who knows how long if I hadn\'t. But I did catch her, she confessed on the second question to her upon confrontation. This is par for the course for most CSs. I don\'t dismiss any of that. What I did was decide to rebuild based on the fact that she confessed to everything I knew she had done and more in that first confrontation meeting, and she immediately, without wavering, said she wanted me, and she would stop the affair and cut off ties with the OM. Since I wanted to rebuild if we could, I\'ve done those things I feel are beneficial to giving this the best chance of success. I know all the possible problems that could come up. Just reading all the threads on this site make me realize two things. One, that she has done far away better than 90% of the CSs in these areas. Two, that it could have been much, much worse.
Like I\'ve said, I\'m not saying nothing bad will happen down the road. But all signals I\'ve received since dday say we are on the right track. I don\'t know how else to put it. All the negative stuff happened during the A fog, when she was in a different frame of mind, split personality, living a double life and trying to keep them separate. Once that came tumbling down, however, she\'s done very well, with struggles as might be expected. My only real beef with her recovery is that she wouldn\'t not respond to his text when he texted. Most likely due to the emotional attachment she had.
@blindside,
So you are saying all the men BS\'s on the forum are divorced? Save me I guess. Am I the lone hold out here? Somehow I seriously doubt that. But I\'ve not seen any complain about that. I think men in general (not all of course) don\'t have as much of a problem with that as the women. Just my observation is all.
Well, first, what I was giving was admittedly a very brief summary. I wasn\'t giving a blow by blow of what happened. There are details in there I didn\'t bother going into, and truthfully, I\'ve never asked for a blow by blow series of events when she gave the blow job to him. I\'ve asked some questions and have a good idea of what happened, but I\'ve not dived into all the details. What you read was my very brief and simple summary of what happened.
Your comment caused my wife to think maybe for a moment that you were the other man. Why else would you say she lied, that\'s not the way it happened, as if you were there and could refute it. lol.
But seriously, the way to help isn\'t to just call someone a liar and not even explain what you are talking about or why.
And for both of you, I understand your trying to help. You are seeing things you don\'t think I\'m seeing. I\'m thankful for that. But this is a support forum as well. You have said some positive things about all this, blondgal, so you\'ve not been totally negative. But after a while all this accusations start to get to me. If I\'ve been offensive because I got frustrated at that, I\'m sorry. I\'m only clarifying what it appears you are missing, or I\'m not understanding why you are saying the things you are. Most of it appears to be based on not knowing all the facts, or having got them mixed up, or something.
I guess I just expect some support on the support forum from time to time, especially when I have good news to report. We\'re supposed to be encouraging each other, not just accusing me of ...okay, I had to delete that as my frustration was showing again. Maybe I can say it this way. There is a way to help someone see something they are missing without being accusatory about it. What I\'m hearing is I\'m pretty stupid because I\'m not seeing all these problems that are about to crash our marriage to pieces.
I\'m sure you don\'t mean it to come across that way, but that\'s how its sounding more and more from this end. Doesn\'t help things, I\'m afraid.
@blondegal,
If you\'re still willing, I have had some time to think over this some and try to make heads or tails of what is bugging me here, and I think I know what it is, and what question I really need to ask to rectify that.
A lot of what you\'ve said I am fully aware of. I\'ve reported it. I\'m fully aware of what she was doing during the A, that if I hadn\'t caught her she would still be having the affair right now and I\'d be none the smarter about it. Yes, she was deceptive during the A. Yes, she had multiple affairs, including two PA ones as well. Other things it appears you\'ve just forgotten or didn\'t get the time line or who was on \"first.\" Other times, it appears to be a matter of interpretation, as in her answer to the first question was \"Not really\" being evidence of trickle truth. She wasn\'t calm and smooth with her answer, by the way, she confirmed to me that what I had read the night before was true by the way she said that. \"Not really\" meant \"yes.\" But it was more like I gave the faucet a shove and a drip came out. I gave it another shove and it opened full wide and everything came out. I had an advantage over most BS\'s, because most of them are left trying to dig the truth out of their CS, never knowing for sure they\'ve gotten it all. I read a fairly full and detailed confession the night before that she didn\'t know I\'d read. If she\'d left anything out that I knew about, and tried to claim there wasn\'t anything else, I would have known about it and could have called her on it. Luckily, she didn\'t do that because it wouldn\'t have been pretty if she had tried that.
Be all that as it may, what matters right now is we\'ve decided mutually to save our marriage, and we are where we are today no matter the events of the past. Our focus is to attempt to make sure this doesn\'t happen again. We are still studying books, reading websites on this including ones on sexual addiction and treatment.
So, I figured out what is bugging me is I\'ve heard a lot of she hasn\'t done everything she needs to do on dday, or yet, I\'m not clear on some of that. But I\'ve heard no solutions, no what you think I should be doing about this if it were all true as you\'ve seen it.
So the question I think I would need answered is in light of what you\'ve seen, what is it you want to see happen? What is it I or she should be doing right now to \"fix\" this that we aren\'t doing? It\'s fine to talk about the past and what mistakes and sins we\'ve committed, but it is always about healing.
Are you suggesting that I really have no hope and should give up on the marriage? Do you think I should be punishing her in some way for her transgressions? I know you think our therapist ended counseling too soon. Though it isn\'t ended, ended. If we are having a problem we can easily call her up and schedule a session. But financially with me being out of work that is going to be iffy right now.
I don\'t know what you think I should be doing so as not to excuse her of stuff, or be going easy on her. Do I need to yell at her some more? I don\'t know what the outcome you are thinking I or she needs to do as a result of what fears you are bringing to the table.
Maybe if I could get that answer, maybe I could understand more of what you are getting at and take positive action. As it is, I feel mostly frustrated because I\'m hearing this is wrong and that is wrong and so on and so forth, but I don\'t know what I\'m supposed to do with that info right now, today, that will give my marriage a better chance of success in rebuilding. I\'m doing all that I know to do.
Thanks for your input if you chose to give it.
Well, Cole, just for the record, I\'m not angry with you....just a bid frustrated.
You\'re right, what\'s passed is passed, and it is good to attempt to move forward.
My take is that you have done it so very quickly, without processing your feelings. I\'ve suggested that, I thought you tend to intellectualize, as your personality style, maybe coping mechanism, or defense mechanism. I\'m not certain. YOu said you tend not to get emotional.
I guess where I was coming from was: how can you not get emotional about a huge betrayal? How can you not be hurt down to the deepest core? How can you not finally get angry? So, in my understanding, loss has quite a few steps, as does mourning.
There\'s denial, there\'s depression, mourning, anger, more processing, and I believe it\'s been traditionally stated there\'s five steps, one other is bartering. Anyways, in order to heal, it\'s not a sprint, because then you are not naturally moving through the 5 stages of grief. Look it up, for more details. But when one betrays another, it is akin to death. The death of that intimacy, especially in your case, 1:1 with no others all those years (28 i believe you said) is over, a done deal, and can never, ever, be taken back. So that to me, is a huge deal, and even if you guys did have several other lovers in your lifetime, still a big deal. But you seem to emphasize this, as being very important on your basic values scale, so I would think, that your grief my be that much more exponentially deep.
At any rate, you seem to take ownership, of your \"ignoring your wife\'s requests regarding 4th of July, Halloween, ) as well, as you stated that you were somewhat engrossed in your writing, and didn\'t give her all the attention she needed or wanted. I am paraphrasing a bit, for the sake of being a bit curse, don\'t have the time to l ook up y our exact quote. But I believe it is accurate, that you discovered she wanted and needed more of your time. At any rate, I\'m just wondering, as I don\'t know you, and I\'m not a therapist (certified), however many friends do ask for my interpretation, and help, lol,...... But it is my prediction that there is a possibility of your also experiencing guilt, due to a little bit of selfishness, and maybe being closed off to your wife, in terms of emotional availability. Why I say this, is you seem to be more on the intellectual side, although many folks may have both, and balance it nicely, when and if, needed. So perhaps your personalities are a bit different, and how you proces information is different, as well as your coping mechanisms, and even defense mechanisms. Nothing really wrong with that! I would venture to guess that many couples are different in the above mentioned ways. No big deal, but it\'s probably a good thing to learn about ourselves, and since you like to analyze, also learn about the partner, in the above-mentioned categories. This might be a great starting point with the counselor again, if you were to take that route, for a few sessions. But, my point, being, if you are in your head, and you are feeling guilty, notice the operative words here are IF, then perhaps you may feel obligated to move on, forgive, and try to hurry the process of rebuilding.
But, Cole, in my humble opinion, I\'m not so certain that we can force the timing of this whole process, as then, it becomes unnatural, and many things may be overlooked, missed??? I\'m talking about the feeling aspect, because tons of psychologists and psychiatrists have written about this, and I think there may be some merit in: Healing takes time. There will be many highs and lows! It can be akin to a roller-coaster, and I\'ve often related it to a merry go round, where we go round and round, and just want to get off so badly. But, my concern is more about you, and your healing than worry about your wife\'s misgivings or acts of \"impulse or selfishness, betrayal, indiscrection\".
I\'m thinking you glossed over it too quickly, in order to really process it, and if you do so, it\'s ugly head will come up, later, and cause more problems down the line. I\'ve seen it time and time again, so just in case you are repressing it, maybe subconsciously, it does come out, if not truly processed in the natural manner of healing. And, of course, that varies from individual to individual based on one\'s personality, make-up, modeling behavior (when you were a child), your persistence, your belief system, your morals and values, your choices of how you perceive things, how you interpret things, how you think you should-problem solve, your defense mechanisms, your coping mechanisms, your strengths, weaknesses, and willingness to accept the reality as it is, ad naseum, ad infinitum. But those are a few which come to mind.
My H is bugging me now, to get into the pool, so I will honor his request, as we will be getting ready to go see Paul McCartney in person in a few hours. For sure...will attempt to add more later, but I don\'t want to spend time here now, when I need to spend time with hubby! Have a good weekend, and yes, the previous prayers were heartfelt!
Thanks for the clarifications. It is sort of hard to psychoanalyze myself in this regard. Yes, I recognize I have moved fairly quickly, so it seems. I do feel like I\'ve gone through the stages of grief. Having had pastoral training, I\'m aware of them. I can say for sure that I am totally done with them. Sometimes those things are on their own timeline, as you mention, and they can reoccur.
Let me just say, yes, the A was very tramatic for me. About the only other thing in my life that comes close was they man that molested me and my brothers as a young teen, and when my brother spilled the beans to my parents with him standing right there, and he tried to kill himself by choking himself to death (which of course you can\'t do but he did go unconscious). That scene literally made me sick to my stomach and I had to hide from it. I was 13 at the time.
But I think reading that log where she told the EA partner that she was having an affair with a local guy and has been having sex with him about blew my world, and I couldn\'t get my mind around that idea that she would sacrifice what we had for that.
I did go through anger, but as I said, I\'m not naturally easy to anger. But I did. Not the throwing furniture around the room anger (I\'ve never done that kind of thing) but more in my depiction of the OPs to her that were complicit in my pain, who didn\'t seem to care that they were destroying a family and marriage. They can rationalize it all they want, but anyone who starts knowingly developing a relationship with a married woman is somewhere below dogs in the development of their character. Note, I\'m not saying they are worth less than dogs, but their character is no better. They are on the level of animals by their actions and thinking.
And I\'m not saying that there isn\'t some anger still in there somewhere. I mean, my wife conspired with other men to deceive me. To make my relationship to her a farce for eight months. To throw away our intimacy. To risk 28+ years of bonded marriage on a stupid fling. Naturally I\'m angry about that.
But I see no point in belaboring the point. I\'ve forgiven her, even the OMen, not because I think they need it, but I needed to to move on. Doesn\'t mean I\'m not still angry about it, or feel the loss of what happened, or get depressed over it occasionally.
As far as i can tell, I\'ve not forced anything to end quicker on my feelings. As I\'ve said, for me to start acting more angry now would be artificial. I guess I don\'t express my anger by what a lot of people do. And I\'ve let it go. Not that I won\'t have to deal with it again, but as one person on the forums have said, they find they have to keep forgiving again and again. I\'m sure I\'m not finished feeling things about all this.
Yes, I do think there is some guilt over not having been as attentive as I should have been the past years of our marriage. I think some point in our third year, when the first kid came on the scene, we started to slowly divide into our own worlds. Me at work, her taking care of the children. And due to our differences of how to raise the kids, I ended up backing out of doing a lot when they were little, simply to not confuse the kids by conflicting discipline and approaches. Which from their view made me not so much a part of their lives.
But it is a guilt that lead me to do something to fix it. She\'s forgiven me even as I\'ve forgiven her for all those years of sexual neglect. We are both equally guilty in the drifting apart of our lives and marriage.
But I don\'t think for a minute, while my actions and inattentiveness may have promoted a more tempting environment for what she did, that it gave her any excuse for what she did. She is 100% to blame for going outside the marriage to fulfill whatever needs she felt this other guy was fulfilling. Was she naive about what she was doing? Yes, and should have realized what she was doing was wrong the moment she decided to flirt back.
I\'m guilty of not giving her the attention she deserved in the marriage. She is guilty for having the affair. One doesn\'t excuse the other on any level. Nor does the existence of both mean I shouldn\'t try to fix both.
So, I guess, it may appear on the outside like I\'m doing that, but I certainly don\'t feel I am. I went through hell. The first three weeks were literally an emotional roller coaster ride. It settled down, of its own accord after that. I\'ve seen her make progress since then, and each one gives me hope that this will end positively. But I know the roller coaster could fire up again, things could go downhill quickly. But my naturally non-emotional way of dealing with things does mean my roller coaster isn\'t going to last as long. And that would be natural. I can fully understand others taking months or years healing emotionally even with the CS doing everything right from day one.
But like I said, I don\'t know if I\'m suppressing anything or not. I don\'t feel I am, but maybe without realizing it I am? That\'s possible. The therapist even got some emotional responses from me, even though on one occasion I sort of felt it was ginned up.
I think I\'ve mentioned it somewhere. When I was in high school on the tennis team, a couple of the players called me Spock because when I missed, made a mistake, etc., I didn\'t show any emotion like they did, which was to hit their racket against the net or ground and curse. I simply didn\'t need to do that. Made a mistake. Learn from it and move on. I knew staying focused on that mistake would only make it harder to do what needed to be done.
I\'m certainly not as emotionless as Spock, but I do remain pretty calm even in some stressful situations. Sometimes that works to my advantage. Other times, when people maybe don\'t think I\'m serious enough, or that it isn\'t as important to me as it should be, they make assumptions about what I\'m actually feeling.
So, all I know to do on that score is continue on. If more emotions show up at a later date, then I\'ll deal with them. But I don\'t perceive that I\'ve hidden anything, swept emotions under the rug in order to help her. I\'ve dealt with them as they have come. Am still dealing with them, and probably will be for months and years to come. It\'s just they don\'t run on they surface for me. I don\'t need to outwardly express them a lot. I\'ve expressed them as much as I\'ve felt I needed to.
If I have suppressed them, I can\'t tell that I have. But I guess that will come in time. But I suspect much of it I have and am dealing with in my own way, and will continue to work through.
Thanks for the help and thoughts.
Typo that made me say the opposite of what I intended in the first paragraph:
\"I can say for sure that I am totally done with them.\"
I meant to say \"I can\'t say for sure...\"
Well, good then! Nice to see you continue to consider other issues, that\'s a good thing. For example: am I repressing or not? If so, what might ti be? Why might it be? Did my past have any particular impact on me?
Have I dealt with it in therapy, or do I choose to bring it up???
Any type of question which helps at your getting to know yourself more, is good!
Paul McCartney was great last night! We all said it was the best concert we\'ve ever attended. Now that\'s what I\'m talking about!!
Glad you had a good time at the concert. And thanks for the input.