Journey Through Adultery - 7-26-11
Time for an update. We've experienced a minor setback, and some positive movement forward. And they are both tied together, so let me start back a ways.
My wife, during her affairs, naturally took pictures of the OMen. One of the emotional online affairs sent her pictures of himself...nothing X-rated. I've seen them, just him standing in what I assume is his "estate."
Early on, I asked her to delete all his pictures and take out his phone number, etc. She didn't want to do it. I said at least keep them out of sight, so she doesn't see them all the time, because the whole point of cutting off is to gain some distance and not remember them. But emotionally she wasn't at the stage of wanting to not have something to remember them by. I get it. She fell in love with them, and wanted pictures to remember them by. She didn't think she'd want to totally forget them.
At first this reluctance bugged me. And I could have sneaked onto her phone and deleted them myself, and cleaned him out of the computer, and everywhere else I knew they existed. But I knew that would cause her a lot of anger toward me for forcing the issue.
Since she had cut off contact with the OM, I decided to make this a test issue. So I told her just don't have them where she can easily see them, and at some point she would be ready to delete them. I figured if she arrived at that point, I would know she'd taken a major step forward.
Related to this was she still had the first man friended on MySpace, and the second one friend on Facebook. Neither was ever on or had posted anything in a long time. I checked on occasion to make sure that was the case, that there was no more conversations going on, etc. But I would remind her every once in a while that so-and-so is still your friend on Facebook.
One of the men still friends on FB was a minor emotional affair/sex chat partner online. When she pointed him to her Facebook page, and he saw she was happily married and had kids, he was like, "What are you doing on EP? You're a mom!" I don't know how old he is, but his attitude changed a good bit.
And though she friended him on FB, she would tell him how the marriage rebuilding was going, and he would post back something like, "Hang in there." And that was it. I didn't concern myself too much with him, as he appeared to be distancing himself from her, knowing she was trying to rebuild her marriage.
They hadn't talked for a long time. Then suddenly one evening last week, while she was on FB, he pops up for a chat. And he is wanting to sex chat. Now the thing is, on this site, she had one guy want to sex chat with her, and she said, "No" and ended up turning off the chat function so she didn't have to worry about it. But this guy was different, because they had a "relationship." And she found herself going along with it. She knew she should tell him she can't do this anymore and cut it off, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. She attempted to divert the conversation but that didn't work. Instead, at least at one point she encouraged him by telling him how many times we had had sex that day.
But afterwords, she felt sick about it and was disappointed in herself. That was last Thursday. Friday she told me she had something to confess and then told me what had happened. I thanked her for telling me, and we got into a conversation about why she had such a hard time telling him "no." She didn't justify it, admitting she should have said no, but she felt like she didn't want to disappoint him.
I think this is part of the issue. Once she gets to know someone, she doesn't want to disappoint them. Like early on when she couldn't seem to not respond to any attempt by the OM to contact her. I kept telling her simply don't respond, but she felt that was too rude. When we talked about what she would do if she ran into him at the grocery store or elsewhere, she had difficulty just saying "Sorry, I can't talk to you," and walk away.
One positive to that chat was she said she wasn't at all attracted to sex chatting with him. She didn't get any of the "rush" she did like in the midst of her affair fog. She was glad to know that (and so am I), but she was scared because she couldn't get up the nerve to say, "Sorry, I can't do that." Then log out of FB. She wasn't so concerned about this guy as such, but more what it meant for when and if the OM did run into her, or seek her out again. Would she have the nerve to walk away? To tell him to leave her alone?
One of the things she felt was the issue is she still had an emotional connection with these guys. Even the minor one. She felt strongly not only that she needed to break that, but she wanted to break it. And she started praying that God would show her how to do that.
One of the things I said she needed to do was defriend this guy. The only time he'll contact you is when he wants to sex chat, that much is obvious. She agreed. And when she went to confession this weekend, the priest told her the same thing. He said, unless you're desperate to go to the bathroom, the first thing you do when you get home is logon to FB and defriend him. Which she did.
But I also brought up the fact that one thing she can do to break those emotional bonds is not only distance and time, but getting rid of everything that might remind you of them, including pictures, phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Just like a woman who divorces her husband might throw out all pictures of him, cut him out of pictures with the kids, move, get rid of his stuff, leave as little to remind her of him because she desperately wants to break that emotional bond, and that is one way you do that.
She prayed over it, and though it was hard, she, on her own, without prompting from me, deleted pictures of the guys she had. She has a few more on computers and email to get rid of, but she deleted all the ones off her phone, and on the computer. She also went on to MySpace and FB and defriended anyone associated with the A's.
To me, that's a major step forward. She wants to break these emotional bonds, to forget them. It will still take time, but psychologically, she's done something proactive to speed that process up. And they won't be hanging around, causing triggers when she runs across them.
But we still have to deal with her seeming inability to say "no." I know she can do it. I told her I knew, because she's told me "no" so many times over the years. So I know she can do it. But she wants to get a handle on it, not only in case the OM starts trying to contact her again, but also because some other man may start trying to flirt with her, and she wants to be able to say "no." And mean it.
We'll keep working on it. But I think this last week's events have helped us realize how far she's come, but also how far we still have to go to avoid another incident. But I applaud her for recognizing those emotional bonds are the problem, wanting them to end, and is doing something to bring that about. And that she was being open with me. She could have kept that "minor" incident hidden, but instead confessed it to me and our priest.
I can see her love for me in action. That gives me a lot of comfort, even though we aren't out of the woods. As long as we are working together, there is hope.
My wife, during her affairs, naturally took pictures of the OMen. One of the emotional online affairs sent her pictures of himself...nothing X-rated. I've seen them, just him standing in what I assume is his "estate."
Early on, I asked her to delete all his pictures and take out his phone number, etc. She didn't want to do it. I said at least keep them out of sight, so she doesn't see them all the time, because the whole point of cutting off is to gain some distance and not remember them. But emotionally she wasn't at the stage of wanting to not have something to remember them by. I get it. She fell in love with them, and wanted pictures to remember them by. She didn't think she'd want to totally forget them.
At first this reluctance bugged me. And I could have sneaked onto her phone and deleted them myself, and cleaned him out of the computer, and everywhere else I knew they existed. But I knew that would cause her a lot of anger toward me for forcing the issue.
Since she had cut off contact with the OM, I decided to make this a test issue. So I told her just don't have them where she can easily see them, and at some point she would be ready to delete them. I figured if she arrived at that point, I would know she'd taken a major step forward.
Related to this was she still had the first man friended on MySpace, and the second one friend on Facebook. Neither was ever on or had posted anything in a long time. I checked on occasion to make sure that was the case, that there was no more conversations going on, etc. But I would remind her every once in a while that so-and-so is still your friend on Facebook.
One of the men still friends on FB was a minor emotional affair/sex chat partner online. When she pointed him to her Facebook page, and he saw she was happily married and had kids, he was like, "What are you doing on EP? You're a mom!" I don't know how old he is, but his attitude changed a good bit.
And though she friended him on FB, she would tell him how the marriage rebuilding was going, and he would post back something like, "Hang in there." And that was it. I didn't concern myself too much with him, as he appeared to be distancing himself from her, knowing she was trying to rebuild her marriage.
They hadn't talked for a long time. Then suddenly one evening last week, while she was on FB, he pops up for a chat. And he is wanting to sex chat. Now the thing is, on this site, she had one guy want to sex chat with her, and she said, "No" and ended up turning off the chat function so she didn't have to worry about it. But this guy was different, because they had a "relationship." And she found herself going along with it. She knew she should tell him she can't do this anymore and cut it off, but she couldn't bring herself to do it. She attempted to divert the conversation but that didn't work. Instead, at least at one point she encouraged him by telling him how many times we had had sex that day.
But afterwords, she felt sick about it and was disappointed in herself. That was last Thursday. Friday she told me she had something to confess and then told me what had happened. I thanked her for telling me, and we got into a conversation about why she had such a hard time telling him "no." She didn't justify it, admitting she should have said no, but she felt like she didn't want to disappoint him.
I think this is part of the issue. Once she gets to know someone, she doesn't want to disappoint them. Like early on when she couldn't seem to not respond to any attempt by the OM to contact her. I kept telling her simply don't respond, but she felt that was too rude. When we talked about what she would do if she ran into him at the grocery store or elsewhere, she had difficulty just saying "Sorry, I can't talk to you," and walk away.
One positive to that chat was she said she wasn't at all attracted to sex chatting with him. She didn't get any of the "rush" she did like in the midst of her affair fog. She was glad to know that (and so am I), but she was scared because she couldn't get up the nerve to say, "Sorry, I can't do that." Then log out of FB. She wasn't so concerned about this guy as such, but more what it meant for when and if the OM did run into her, or seek her out again. Would she have the nerve to walk away? To tell him to leave her alone?
One of the things she felt was the issue is she still had an emotional connection with these guys. Even the minor one. She felt strongly not only that she needed to break that, but she wanted to break it. And she started praying that God would show her how to do that.
One of the things I said she needed to do was defriend this guy. The only time he'll contact you is when he wants to sex chat, that much is obvious. She agreed. And when she went to confession this weekend, the priest told her the same thing. He said, unless you're desperate to go to the bathroom, the first thing you do when you get home is logon to FB and defriend him. Which she did.
But I also brought up the fact that one thing she can do to break those emotional bonds is not only distance and time, but getting rid of everything that might remind you of them, including pictures, phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Just like a woman who divorces her husband might throw out all pictures of him, cut him out of pictures with the kids, move, get rid of his stuff, leave as little to remind her of him because she desperately wants to break that emotional bond, and that is one way you do that.
She prayed over it, and though it was hard, she, on her own, without prompting from me, deleted pictures of the guys she had. She has a few more on computers and email to get rid of, but she deleted all the ones off her phone, and on the computer. She also went on to MySpace and FB and defriended anyone associated with the A's.
To me, that's a major step forward. She wants to break these emotional bonds, to forget them. It will still take time, but psychologically, she's done something proactive to speed that process up. And they won't be hanging around, causing triggers when she runs across them.
But we still have to deal with her seeming inability to say "no." I know she can do it. I told her I knew, because she's told me "no" so many times over the years. So I know she can do it. But she wants to get a handle on it, not only in case the OM starts trying to contact her again, but also because some other man may start trying to flirt with her, and she wants to be able to say "no." And mean it.
We'll keep working on it. But I think this last week's events have helped us realize how far she's come, but also how far we still have to go to avoid another incident. But I applaud her for recognizing those emotional bonds are the problem, wanting them to end, and is doing something to bring that about. And that she was being open with me. She could have kept that "minor" incident hidden, but instead confessed it to me and our priest.
I can see her love for me in action. That gives me a lot of comfort, even though we aren't out of the woods. As long as we are working together, there is hope.
Replies
Forgive me for being blunt, but it seems to me that your wifes\'s heart is not into full detachment, quite yet! It almost seems as if it\'s two different personalities. She needs to become a woman of integrity. If she says, she loves you, and only you, and wants to remain married to you (no matter how forgiving you seem to be), then she knows from reading on here, that this is the first and foremost significant step. If she says she is unaware of this step, she\'s fooling no one. You can\'t keep on saying one thng, and doing another! That simply isn\'t integrity. Talk the talk, and walk the walk, or one does appear to be hypocritical, and deceptive. Unless, of course, there is an addiction to this behavior, which is what I hinted at long ago, but you and your counselor seem to think not! If someone does a behavior, to get some kind of \"rush\" out of it, and it is actually behavior which they regret later, and sabotages their marriage and happiness.....then that sounds like an adddiction to me.
She needs to be more honest with herself, in my book, and with you, and deal with the why\'s of what she gains from all this attention, and positivie reinforcement. So when you want her to go \"cold turkey\", on her own, without professional help???? I just don\'t think it\'s gonna happen. But first you both need to admit this is a problem, and it\'s causing a problem in your marriage! If we keep repeating a sin, only to ask for forgiveness week after week, then how sincere are we in making restitution?
It\'s time to get back into counseling, I would think, where she can address why this behavior seems to take precedence over her marriage, and why she\'s willing to sabotage herself, and your marriage. To me it\'s very risky behavior, on a very slippery slope. What does she expect from you, that you will continue to expect her to do the \"right thing\" forever???? See, to me, that\'s not true remorse! Fine, she\'s admitting her few things to you, but I\'m still getting over the fact that you didn\'t think a \"blow job\" was sex!
That can be far more personal than sex, in my book! Well, I guess we\'ll agree to disagree with dignity! But once yiou start getting into a whole series of activities, chats, sexting, sex, and blow jobs, it seems like a \"serial\" cheater to me, and that is far more significant than a \"one time\" thing, whre the wife takes on the initiative to make all the steps, necessary to never repeat anything close to this in the future. She left all those friends on her computer networks for a reason, so she can repeat them!
Sad, very sad!
Hi blondegal,
You are correct, she is not fully detached. I think that is one of the things I was saying here. She still has some emotional bonds, but those don\'t go away with the flip of a switch. They grow weak with distance and time. The pictures and such were evidences of that emotional attachment. She very much wants to get rid of those emotional attachments now. Evident by the fact she is deleting those pictures now, is defriending anyone to do with the affairs. As I said, a major step forward. One I\'d been waiting to see when she would arrive at. And now she has. But the emotional attachments are still there to some degree, but will weaken without any further contact or reminders of them. Just what\'s in her head.
Actually, we\'ve talked about seeking out some counseling on this issue. Right now, with me out of work and not knowing what money we will need in the future, we are reluctant to spend money we may not have to spend. But I think we are at least going to email our therapist to ask what exactly were her reasons for not considering sexual addiction as part of the issue. Her response may be enlightening one way or the other.
Once I get a job and we know we\'re back on a decent financial footing, we may very well seek someone experienced in sexual addictions to see if that is the case with her and what treatments could help.
Now, I don\'t know our therapist\'s reasons, but if I were to guess, it is because up until these incidences, she exhibited none of the signs of sexual addiction, and since dday, she still hasn\'t. That is, a compulsion. She has had no desire to seek out online sex chats, or to be with the OM, and her attitude and behavior did change drastically from what it was before dday. And as time has gone on, she has more and more come out of the \"fog\" and reacted accordingly, disbelieving what she had done, feelings of full guilt for what pain she\'s caused, and desiring to heal the marriage.
But what she feels for the guys she had contact with is expected. \"Not Just Friends\" talks specifically about this, that as much as she wants to right now, she can\'t just turn off her feelings for those men. She bonded with them. It is hard to let go. And I allowed her to keep, for the time being, those pictures as an indicator when she arrived at that spot. If she\'d been staying in contact with them behind my back, I knew she\'d never arrive at the point of being willing to get rid of those pictures or other information. If she arrived at that point, I knew that would be a sign that she hasn\'t been in contact with them. Short of this being an elaborate scheme to deceive me, which yes, I know it could be, it indicates she has been honest with me.
Remember, I knew about these pictures, the connections on FB and MS, that she probably still had the OM\'s number in her cell phone (but it\'s blocked so meaningless as far as contact goes). She wasn\'t deceiving me about them. I knew they were there, felt that while I would prefer they weren\'t there, that neither were they likely to be venues of contact as I knew about them and monitored them, and never saw any activity of contact. No, if she wanted to have such contact, I\'m sure she\'d get a secret email address, maybe a different login name on MS, FB, or more likely EP where she had most of her online EAs. She wouldn\'t be stupid enough to use her current email address, FB, because she knows I\'ll see it there. So I\'ve checked them from time to time, and can find no activity. So I\'ve not considered them a threat to restarting the contact. But, I did consider the point when she was ready to delete them as a sign of 1) She hasn\'t been having contact with them, or she wouldn\'t want to give them up, and 2) That she is serious about wanting to speed up the diminishing of the emotional contact she\'s had with these people.
And to be clear, once again, I know the impression I left with that first journal entry was that I didn\'t think oral sex was sex. I didn\'t mean to give that impression. I fully believe it is, always have. I do believe intercourse is more personal and intimate, simply by the fact that that\'s the way two become one in a baby. The mouth will never have that result!
Let me tell you a little story about when we were dating. We were both committed Christians, but I had this concept that sex which is prohibited was intercourse before marriage. That playing around, even mutual masturbation or oral wasn\'t prohibited. This was when I was around 20 years old and in college. I didn\'t ever think I would get to the point of testing that theory out. The first girl I dated tried all she could to get me fired up and \"sexually out of control\" but I didn\'t, and she finally \"fell out of love\" with me after one semester because I obviously wasn\'t going to move fast enough for her. But I had met my future wife through her, since they were friends, though for many months I thought of her as this annoying teenager. It wasn\'t until the summer after the first year that I thought of her as fun and we started dating. We\'d kiss and hug, but that was it. That\'s as far as I\'d ever gone with the other girl as well, though I realize now in retrospect everyone else probably assumed much more was going on behind those fogged windows in the campus parking lot.
We were engaged for about an year and a half after dating for several months. Some point during our engagement, when the wedding was still a few months away, her dad gave us a book written by Tim LaHay meant for couples about to get married. It gave a lot of good advice, but one of the things it talked about was how to please a woman, and emphasized the need for her to have an orgasm as well as the man (which she\'s nearly always received one when we\'ve had sex through our entire marriage). So it went into detail about how to do that.
All I can say, is that her dad should have given us that book much closer to the wedding date. Curiosity got the better of us, and we ended up doing everything including oral, stopping short of ever having intercourse, to preserve that till marriage. Plus, obviously, we didn\'t have to worry about the embarrassing possibility of her getting pregnant before the wedding date. But in my mind I rationalized that oral wasn\'t the same as intercourse, wasn\'t as intimate, etc. It wasn\'t crossing the line.
So we got married, and we had sex, and I realized after a few times of that, that the emotional intimacy between oral and intercourse was minimal if any. That they were both equally emotionally intimate. Aside from the possibility of having a baby, they were the same. I knew oral was having sex in some way, even then. Just thought intercourse was more than that. And in some ways it certainly is. But, it was after we were married that I realized how stupid my rationalizations were. There wasn\'t that much more to intimacy after oral sex, and we had sinned by participating in such.
So, yes, I do fully believe oral sex is sex. I just mis-wrote on that first email saying she\'d had sex with only one guy. I was thinking intercourse, when I wrote that. But certainly she had a PA with two guys. It was just the first was one incident physically, almost turned into two except my wife was still fighting off crossing that boundary at that point, and was thankfully successful that time. So while my wife had a strong infatuation attraction to him, and it is bad enough that she did have the one blow job with him, he\'s gone and no longer available, and isn\'t likely to return. The second guy she had a PA with is much more of not just infatuation, but some real love going on. They had sex at least 12-13 times over six weeks. Sometimes in his car, but apparently in his house as well, when she went to pick him up to go to a job he would help her with. So naturally I consider that one a harder break for her to make. She was neck deep in it when I discovered it, and most certainly in the fog she didn\'t want it to end then, even if the other part of her was glad it was over.
We both think she was exhibiting some addictive behaviors during the eight months she was involved with this desire to seek attention from other men. But whether it reached the level of clinical addiction would mean that it had become a compulsion. The fact that she\'s gone nearly three months without feeling the need to seek that out would indicate it is not a compulsion. She didn\'t have it before, she\'s not exhibiting it now. The only point was during those eight months before I found out.
What I think this past week\'s event revealed is that she has trouble, if something happens, to stopping it, to saying no. It is easier to just let it happen. And she had a moment of weakness during that chat. She wanted to end it, she wanted him to stop, but she doesn\'t know why she couldn\'t tell him no and shut it down. She wasn\'t even enjoying it. It was just there.
Yes, I expect her to do the right thing. Even as she expects me to do the same. If she gets in the frame of mind, as we\'ve been discussing on the forum, where she is craving it again, it will be near impossible to stop. Our approach is to not get to that point. To establish firm boundaries, and when those get crossed, like some guy flirting with her, she tells me and we discuss together what to do about it. And then she does it.
She rationalized the first time that the flirting was just \"harmless fun and play, not serious.\" The third time she realized he was serious, she had a talk with him and told him she could never go there. He said he understood. That much is about as far as she told me at the time. She didn\'t tell me what happened after that point until dday. Which is after a few days he tested the waters again by sending her a flirty text. She rationalized that he knew she wasn\'t serious, that it was just for fun, and played along. It escalated from there.
Now we both know better. She knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that flirting is off limits, and not \"innocent\" as she thought before.
Will that be enough? Maybe not. We are still discussing the issue of her problem of not stopping someone that is doing something she knows she shouldn\'t be involved with. She did stop one guy, but not the one she had a previous relationship with. Whether that is the issue or not, hard to tell fully. Bodes well for strangers, but not if the OM happens to run into her again at some point.
End result, if she were still showing signs of compulsive behavior, the sexual addiction issue would be more up front. While she\'s had problems not responding when they seek her out, she hasn\'t had any compulsion to seek them out, or get her fix on line. I think that\'s probably why the therapist doesn\'t consider it sexual addiction. She only demonstrated a strong desire for it in the midst of the A fog. Not before nor since. Especially what has happened since dday, isn\'t someone who is compulsive. Otherwise, she wouldn\'t have been able to stop seeking out guys online, she would have done it behind my back or attempted to. She would have stayed in her fog. She would have hid more of the info from me than she has. She would be contacting the OM behind my back.
If she is doing any of that, I\'ve not been able to detect it. If I discover she has, I would agree that this is a compulsion. If she is, then it will get dealt with when it is discovered (too late to stop it). If she isn\'t, it would be more damaging to proceed as if she were, IMO. But the reluctance to be more assertive with these guys is more an issue so that she doesn\'t just \"let it happen\" some point in the future. We\'re exploring why she has a hard time with that, and what can be done to minimize that personality trait.
Simply put, she has a \"difficult time\" stopping things from happening, cuz she doesn\'t want the flirting, and attention to end. Of course, she \"says\" she does, but actions clearly speak louder than words.
In her mind, and in her fantasies (which I\'m pretty sure, that she is NOT sharing with you), those thoughts are allowed to recycle. Maybe even while the 2 of you are making love. So, if she chooses to think of these other sleazebags, during your lovemaking, she\'s reinforcing those memories, and creating new ones, repeatedly, while she\'s in her own home, and there are no repercussions from you, cuz you won\'t know it.
To me, it seems that your rational mind, compartmentalizes a little too much of her behaviors. On one hand, you talk about her lack of interest and frequency in sex for so long, and then you also excuse her when she clearly does show actions of her being selfish, her wanting immediate gratification, with other men, and her need to feel sexy cuz she lost all that weight. So, clearly, she feels differently about herself, and that is good in itself, but it seems to have swung a bit too far on the pendulum, and that part is consuming her. I\'m not sure if she\'d be honest with you, regarding your asking her outright when she\'d come home at lunch, and want to have sex right away, if that was as a result of being with the other guy.
Nor am I sure if she\'d admit, that she still does fantasize in her mind, about those other 13 sexual times with him, or their cleaning house together, or being in his car, or his place, etc. I just surely hope, that she isn\'t doing it consisitently while the 2 of you are having sex, cuz that would indeed, be defeating the purpose, of what you had wanted for her: to let those memories \"fade\", and eventually lose their effectiveness on her feelings of missing him, and his love-making, and his escapades.
Do you see where I\'m coming from???? She was very reluctant to erase those names, numbers, pics and friends from all her other integrated life, such as FB, phone, text, emails, etc.....so does that mean she feels like you are her \"father dictating to her\", and she\'s getting resentful?
Cuz if that is the case, then her passive aggressive side, could easily come out, in terms of her fantasizing as often as she can, about the past, and I do really hope, its\'s not during your time together, and your most intimate times. Cuz that would really hurt, I would think, and it would disprove her remorse. She has the choice what to fantasize, when, and how often, for sure, but that particular dude, at this time, would only procrastinate the \"breaking off period, and could mean she\'s really still in the fog, so to speak\". Anyways, I sure hope I\'m wrong on this one. But, something tells me that you have already considered this possibility, but not yet approached her on it. I\'m just guessing......
I totally understand where you are coming from. She could be having those fantasies, and if she is, would be one more thing she needs to do to break those emotional ties.
I did ask her once, because she told me after dday that she has always needed to fantasize to reach orgasm. She told me that usually it is some generic scene, with people she doesn\'t know. Now, how much she didn\'t tell me there, and how much she might be using her experiences and fantasies with all these guys she had emotional affairs with, I don\'t know. I\'m sure she\'d be embarrassed to tell me if she did. But you are right. She\'ll read this, I hope, and if she is, she\'ll know one more thing to cut off if she is serious about breaking all these emotional ties.
All indications I get from her is she is doing this because she wants to be freed from these emotional bonds, and wants them to die off. Is there a part of her deep down that regrets not getting to have more of these \"adventures\"? I\'m sure there is. I think part of the tendency to just \"let it happen\" she experienced last week was due to deep inside, even though outwardly she didn\'t want to sex chat with this guy, the currently buried desire found a way to get her to not stop it, in the hopes of providing hook back into it. It didn\'t work that time, but who\'s to say next time it won\'t?
She might experience some regret at not having those pics. But I don\'t think she\'ll experience resentment. She knew she needed to do it, and she finally arrived at the point where she wanted to do it, both for her own healing and for mine.
All that said, it is a big step forward in the healing process. Certainly doesn\'t mean there aren\'t other bumps down the road, but this is a step in the right direction. Whether it is a permanent step will be up to her.
I\'m not sure what you meant by saying I excused her actions of selfishness. Certainly before all this happened, I was in the frame of mind that she would never cheat on me. I noticed when she started acting/feeling more sexy. All well and good, as you say, but it didn\'t fire off any warning bells in my head. It probably would now to some degree. But I\'m not sure how I was excusing it. Mostly I ignored it because I was wrapped up in my own little selfish world, and didn\'t worry too much about hers. But such things can be purely innocent desires and enjoyments that are harmless, or they can be precursors to more.
In her case, she discovered she liked the attention of men that started noticing her when she gave off her vibes. And if it happens again, now, I would have the same concerns.
Thanks for the thoughts.
I think what I meant by you \"excuse her actions of selfishness\" is....
That you tend to intellectualize, and rationalize, more than actually feel the deep emotional betrayal. You are trying to be so supportive of her (which is a great thing), but it seems like you are taking on more responsibility than she is. And of course, there is more attention coming her way.
I just hope she does confuse or \"associate\" your additional attention, which has increased dramatically with the real reason that comes with it! You had a serious wakeup call, and really want the marriage to work. So you are spending more time talking, communicating, and attempting to get the desired outcome (her complete cut off from these other guys, experinces, chats, communication). I truly feel that must stem from her, or she may look upon you as the \"parent\", who is encouraging her to do it. I don\'t see myself as being my H\'s cheereleader, or parent, or anything like that. I think it is completely up the betrayer, to make full amends, immediately in all areas, if that is truly their heart\'s desire. Why keep confessing more trickle truth, and confessing at church, and apologizing, and procrastinating the entire process? Cuz she ain\'t ready, or wasn\'t, and I\'m not sure, if she ever will be.
Something tells me she thinks she\'ll be able to have her cake, and eat it too! IOW, keep you as her devoted husband, while she slows things down temporarily, from all outward appearances, yet, still fantasizes secretly, about all that garbage, which is really clouding up the chance of real reconciliation with you. She thinks she already has that, and all is fine on the marriage front, partly because you tend to excuse, forgive, rationalize, and maybe even repress some of it, as you focus so much on the future.
Gotta dig things up a bit, and find out more why she does what she does? Why she persists in hanging on? Why her love for you isn\'t indubitably stronger than all this other crap??? I do think a large part of it has to do with that feeling of \"having missed out\" on so many sexual experiences.
Fortunately, I had the opportunity to sow my oats, as a young woman, and so I am fully aware of how it feels to be a sexual, sexy, woman and have tried a little of variety of men/experiences. And I can tell her, it\'s all really more than different. Sure different sizes, positions, etc. But it all boils down to anatomy, and your brain, your heart, your thoughts, and she may be experiencing some false promises of the \"grass is greener\". I sure would hate to see her feel \"compelled\" to find out more, while married, and hurt you further, deep down to the core, and make this incontrovertibly irreversible. Because I think she will be a sad puppy, down the road, and see, it\'s not \"all that\" whatsover, and regret that she had a good man, and let him go, even after he was willing to change it up, and be more attentive.
Once you get burned that badly, it\'s hard to put the betrayer\'s needs first, and she is in jeopardy of wearing out her \"welcome mat of forgiveness\".
She needs to be addressed by you, in no uncertain terms, that if this is what she thinks she wants, have at it, and get the hell out of the marriage. And if she determines a year or two down the road, it was the biggest mistake in her life, cuz all the men wanted to do was use her for sex, she\'ll find out, how hollow, and empty it is.....but there is a huge chance that you will have had to move on, for your own sanity\'s sake, in order to cope, and to realize that you can\'t force her to see things your way, or make her do things your way, and that if she doesn\'t care about the huge risk....oh well, then she apparently if full of crap, as to what she is professing to your face.
Like I said, I don\'t know her, but I know maturity, and integrity, and true love. And one of the first precepts is be honest with yourself, and your husband, or what have you got??? No honesty =no trust, which then =no respect (which is probably the biggest offense I see here,not respecting you, your marriage). Then you may as well be roommates, and have an polyamorous relationship, or give her the freedom to have \"friends with benefits\". Somehow, I don\'t think that is what you signed up for, and don\'t think you\'d be happy with yourself. I know I would be extremely resentful towards her, for many reasons. I would be asking myself right now, why do I bother???? If it doesn\'t stem from inside her, and she\'s not the initiator in closing doors, and quit pursuing this \"empty dream of the orgasm world with other men\", then really what can you do???? Other than hold her responsible for her words, and when her actions have a total inverse relationship, point it out, and let her know you will not accept that, and that you\'d rather be alone, than \"deceived, fooled, left out of the loop\". I\'m sorry Cole, but I see 2 very distinct personalities here, and when they are so dichotomous, I don\'t think it works out very well.
She needs to come clean about the past, about the present, and about her intentions for the future. After a certain amount of talk....I get done, real quick. I look for actions, and proof of those words, otherwise they just become hollow empty promises, being made by a woman who is not committed. You can\'t force love, it\'s a choice. You can\'t force or control a dang thing, but you can stand up for yourself, and expect full disclosure, and I mean full disclosure (fantasies included), or you do have a choice as to what you are going to do! Very simple formula, in my mind. I personally would strive for a relationship with a woman, who found me sexy, who wanted me, and who had integrity, honesty, and totall consistency between their words and actions. Have you considered a short separation, for less than a month, to sort out your feelings, and give her a time to be without you to decide whether she really missed you, all around???? Sometimes, time away makes things much clearer! Not a separation moving towards divorce! Just time away! And if you\'re fearing that this will give her the chance to play, be tempted, and engage with other men.......wouldn\'t you prefer to find that out??? Wouldn\'t it be better sooner than later???? And wouldn\'t that be all telling??? You cannot harness her like a dog, you cannot change her, only she can change her.
If she really wants more sexual freedom, she can have it, but probably not while you wait around to see if, and when she wants you back. After all your devastation!!! Or have you showed her your true depth of pain??? Maybe she is unaware???? I don\'t know....how a spouse wouldn\'t recognize it, unless you are rationalizing so much, and not feeling enough, due to repressing all of this. I know you had a couple bad days at work, but I had over 30 bad days, where i couldn\'t eat, sleep, or do anything but cry, deep, wrenching tears. It really broke my heart, and I allowed all of that to surface, I had to let the tears surface, let them out, so I could be cleansed, and feel again, and know what I wanted.
Fortunately this worked for me! Sending you prayers, where insight from the Lord abounds, wisdom hand over fist, and much empathy on your wife\'s part, plus nothing but complete honesty! Amen.
should be
doesn\'t confuse
More the same, than different (sowing oats was)
I don\'t perceive that I\'ve received \"trickle truth\" here. She told me all the key issues on dday, and other details as I asked about them or she recalled them. I\'ve not had any what I would call, big reveals of stuff she didn\'t tell me on dday. So I felt she has been honest with me, and open. And I respect her for that because I don\'t think I would be doing as well as I am if she hadn\'t.
As I said before, we had discussed the fantasies. I asked her again about it last night. She confirmed that she does do that, but with generic men/women. I asked her about the affair men, and she said about two or three times she\'s had images of them pop into her head while we had sex, but not fantasizing about them.
Now, there is no way on earth I\'ll know any different short of becoming telepathic if what she is telling me is the truth or not. I\'ll have to trust her on that one. It will be between her and God. But she did acknowledge that fantasizing about her OM while we had sex would be bad.
Her confessing these things to me and the priest is not trickle truth. They are events that happened, and because she is being open and honest with me, she tells me about when they happen. That is the best way to prevent another occurrence like what happened before. She\'s doing this because she wants to make this work. If she didn\'t, she wouldn\'t be confessing these things when they happen. That is not the same as trickle truth, where I find out now that she had another lover during those eight months, or had another site where she was having emotional affairs that she\'s kept hidden from me, etc. None of that has happened. She would have no reason to hold back anything after telling me all that she did do, holding back another lover or other places would have been pointless.
And to the best of my knowledge, she hasn\'t sought out any of these people or experiences again. She is satisfied with me and is doing what she can to make this work. I can tell she\'s come out of the fog. And like coming to the point where *she* is willing to delete his pictures and such, indicates she is healing, not relapsing or still wanting to keep these attachments alive. This is a process.
And while I understand your concern about the attention, etc. I don\'t see it that way. I see it as fixing something I should have been doing the last 29 years. The A simply brought it to light where I\'d missed it. It also highlighted areas that she had been deficient, and she\'s worked to fix those. I\'ve also expressed to her in no uncertain terms that if I were to discover she hadn\'t told me everything, or she returned to the OM with any solid form of contact, or started up another affair, emotional or physical, with another man, I would have a very hard time moving on with the marriage. Me being able to trust is key. And in my mind, if she still cheats on me or does the trickle truth thing on me at this point, when I can detect no lying, dishonesty, or non-cooperation, then I have nothing to hang my sense of \"can I trust her?\" on. At least at this point, once dday hit, I can see an immediate change in her attitude, that she was willing to not return to the OM and continue to have sex with him, or to seek him out (she had trouble not responding initially, as you know, but she didn\'t try to contact him) other than on dday to tell him it was over, by my permission. I could tell the dday event kicked her out of a large part of the fog, and the remaining part has been dying weekly.
On the sowing oats issue. First, I don\'t consider if fortunate for you that you sowed your oats early. You\'ll never know the intimacy of only giving yourself to one man in full commitment. I didn\'t sow my oats and I\'m very glad about that to this day. Never regretted it once. Sure, I wondered what it might be like to have sex with other women. But I valued the purity of only sharing that deep level of intimacy with one other person so much more. It was important to me, and is one of the biggest losses I sustained in this affair, to know she shared herself with another man when up to this date I\'d had 100% of her. The highest level of sexual intimacy. The more people you share something with, the less intimate it is. The less meaningful it is. And you only get one chance to have that level of intimacy, and sadly very few ever experience it. I did for 28+ years. That was destroyed the moment she put her mouth on the first man\'s dick. Aside from the lying and deceit, that was the biggest loss to me was knowing that was gone and could never be restored. At least the trust has a chance of being restored to a functional level. There was no way to get back what we had on that score.
So I would never want to suggest for young people to go sow their oats. It makes sex meaningless, devoid of its true purpose (to unite the two into one), has ramifications for health in STDs, some of them a death sentence), and falls into the secular mindset that it\'s just a way to have fun, like a night out at the movies. Not to mention if a baby comes into the picture, which has wrecked more than one girl\'s teen years. That attitude is what contributes to affairs happening, because people look at sex as sowing oats, having experiences, and something you can do quite apart from a total commitment to another person for a lifetime. As you said, it is all hollow. I don\'t have to experience that to know that.
But it did make my wife in her naivety more subject to temptation. But that is no excuse, not anymore of an excuse than the fact I wasn\'t paying her the attention she deserved from her husband. But despite all that, she should have known better than to flirt with anyone. She should have known from day one that such activity could put her marriage in jeopardy. But she rationalized as she was already in the fog, desiring that attention, so she told herself it was all innocent play and fun, nothing serious. She made the decisions to do the wrong things, and she knows it. No excuses for either doing the right things before (not fornicating before she got married) or my shortcomings as a husband (not showing her love in the way she could receive it). The threat of having a midlife crisis and wanting experiences you never had in your youth is no reason to give teens the green light to go have as much sex as you want now, because once you\'re married, that\'s it. No, I would suggest that attitude causes more affairs than it might prevent.
I\'m extremely glad, despite what happened, that she didn\'t sow her wild oats as a teen. I wouldn\'t have married her if she had. Because it was that important to me to share myself with only one other person and that one person to share herself with only me. Period. That\'s why I never cheated on her when I had \"reason\" and opportunity. I didn\'t want to destroy a good thing, despite the problems I was having with her. Cheating was never really an option. And I would rather have had 28+ years of total and full intimacy with her having sex only once or twice a month on the average, than to have had sex every night through our whole marriage knowing she had had sex with several other men before she met me.
Of course, if she were to die or we did end up in divorce, I would be hard pressed to find anyone of my age who hadn\'t had sex with other men before meeting me. And for that reason, no one could ever measure up, and it would be very hard for me to marry again, I think. If I did, I would simply accept I\'m not going to get that level of intimacy again. With anyone else. But maybe I could find someone who had only had sex with one other man all their life, or two at the most, which is pretty much what I\'m stuck with now. I don\'t like it, but there\'s nothing I can do about it other than accept it. I don\'t feel it is worth divorcing over. I love my wife still, even if she blew it big time.
On the emotion thing, I\'m simply not an emotional person. The level of emotions I experienced and went through in the first two to three weeks was, for me, very intense and unusual. I don\'t get angry very easily. My previous bi-polar son likes me for that, because I don\'t respond to things in anger and get all \"crazy\" about them like my wife does. As a matter of fact, he often come to me and tells me things, and then says not to tell my wife yet because she\'ll just get all flustered and emotional about it. Like when he broke the windows because he was throwing the sticks at the window where the dog was looking out, and he didn\'t want the dog looking at him. He told me about it. I probably frowned. Then walked on. I\'d say if I have a fault there, it is I don\'t get angry about stuff when I should. But that\'s just my personality. Even on dday, I never raised my voice, I never threw anything, I never acted like I wanted to slap her around or anything of that nature.
So I really don\'t think it does much good to compare your emotional reaction to mine and say mine was deficient because I\'m not crying everyday and having sleepless nights. I simply deal with my hurts differently than you do.
So I don\'t know what to tell you on that. I\'m just not built like you are emotionally. I don\'t feel any inner need to have more emotional breakdowns or act emotional about it. I would be putting on an act if I did. Am I hurting inside? Of course I am. But my personality is the kind to deal with something, fix what i can fix, and move on. I don\'t sit and stew over things that much.
That doesn\'t preclude having days of depression here and there. Yesterday was a bit more rough for me than usual because I went on her MySpace account and read one of her conversations with one of the EA men she was having at the time. I knew what I would find, but it still hurt.
At any rate, I understand your concern, and I understand from your perspective and experiences that she is exhibiting certain behaviors. But it often sounds like you are mixing timelines here, and events, like saying her revealing this guy having a sex chat with her last week as trickle truth of what had happened during the A. No, she revealed it right after it happened. Which is exactly what she should do if she wants this to work.
Now I could get a month or more down the road and discover what you feared is on the money. But from where I sit, you seem to be misreading the situation. What you are describing and what I\'m seeing/experiencing are two different things. If she\'s still hiding something, desperate to get back into the arms of the OM, have more affairs and adventures, she\'s doing a bang up job of hiding it.
That\'s where I stand. We\'ll see how things are a few more months down the road. I\'m certainly not going to dismiss any possibilities at this point, even complete and utter failure of the rebuilding process. But at this point in time, I\'m not seeing most of the things you are as being accurate. Certainly some good advice of what to watch out for, no doubt. It could all crop up again. I\'m not discounting that. But this is progressing as well as I could have expected to date. I\'ve not experienced any trickle truth, or solid evidence of deception, hiding info, etc. Only my fears of such which thus far have proved unfounded. I\'m not sure what else to say but that.
Okay rebuttal time;
Re: her paying to find the bj guy who moved out of state. That obviously happened after the fact, after he was gone right???? That\'s her need to continue with h im, and that was very bad to do, after already having done what she did with him and others.
Her delaying refusing to delete stuff, etc, with all the other sexting communications. And don\'t forget she actually invited this guy to work in houses, cleaning with her! Are you sure that\'s all they did in the houses?? I think that was extremely nervy, and you didn\'t know aobut that til later, again, trickle truth!
Re: Sowing oats
I never mentioned teenagehood, lol, don\'t know where you got that impression. I\'m talking about adults having a monogamous relationship, who feel they love each other, and are loyal to each other. Sowing oats, in my discussion referred to the ability to have enjoyed love with several guys, for several years at a time. And don\'t need to feel sorry for me, I was married to one man for 12 years, and now this man 13 years, and had no desire to have outside sexual encounters, or flirt, or anything. So which is better, a woman who had a few lovers, but respects her current one? Or a woman who was a virgin, but goes screwing guys, and doing blow jobs? I htink the present is what counts, here, not the past. The age of loss of virgininty has nothing to do with it, unless it was early, and the girl was used, abused, or without her permission.
You do focus that specialness, between you and your wife, for 28 years, because you were both virgins. I think it\'s highly over-rated. My present husband and his ex, had the same, She felt like she missed out on life, and \"cocks\" as she said, and se went ballistic afterwards. Now\'s she engaged to a wealthy guy for 4 years, and I doubt they\'ll marry. Once you pass that line, which she did, she\'s not that virginistic anymore. Sorry, but you had to deal with a double whammy, in a short time. And over a dozen times with one guy, while you were both engaging in sex frequently, as you say??? Shaking my head, hope there are no diseases with that one! So you can defend the past, but it\'s over, has been over, and you need to address the present , and the very recent past, but 28 years ago....well, you know people change, obviously!
BS, I disagree with your statement that the more people you share intimate moments with, the less intimate it is or magical or whatever. Sure, if you are a porn star, hooker, or stripper, or sleaze bag....for sure. But if you had several men in your lifetime, I would totally disagree. If they are honest relationships, totally monogamous, and you both believe you are in love, and they last 4-5 years, what, is so bad about that??? So I do think you over-generalized, and over-rationalized on this point! Just admit it, pure is over, virginity is over, 1;1 is over, and now she has joined the ranks of the real world, which most people, in the real world have most likely experienced. Certainlynot defending her, but this is more realistic, because we are curious human beings. I just say, end one chapter before you screw another.
Anyways, I agree to disagree with dignity! I think I get a little more riled up about your situation, cuz I do believe that you are a good guy, an intelligent guy, and just don\'t want to see you get further hurt, due to being a doormat! sometimes people look at forgiveness as the carte blanche to repeat the same crime, and to me, that\'s not acceptable. I th ink your wife is very fortunate in one respect to have a man with your personality type: forgiving, rational, calm, very analytic, a huge problem solver, however with it, also may be that as you said, \"not that emotional\", and of course we all need emotions, attention, and love that goes with it! But she is blessed, and I hope, truly, like I siad, and, offered prayers before, that she gains the wisdom, the honesty, the integrity, and the final decision if she trulyloves you, and wants you......and if not, she lets you go in dignity, and doesn\'t play you! Still my prayer! Well again, good luck, as you travel your \"journey\", cuz it\'s not that quick or that simple! The saga continues, as does the debate! lol
And, yes, I know that I\'m being tough! I was even tough with a 25 year old male friend here! But he\'s still very y oung, and you are double his age, so I do hope that you take my deep scrutiny, questions, and recognize that I am offering possibilites as (the devils advocate, yet I hate that term) you go thru the many stages which we do, in order to gain more clarity, and eventually get to the impasse or the junction of what this situation really is! Yes, it\'s a challenge, yet we can and do learn a whole lot on this crazy ride!
I\'m trying to have your back here, and offer you other insights, and very blatant honesty, from my perspective. Not in the spirt of h urting you, but in the spirit of looking at all perspectives and expanding your insights, and even perhaps something out of your comfort zone, or personality, or coping mechanisms, as well as trying to be supportive. Big plate, you can say! lol
I know you are working to help me. I\'ve no doubt about that.
On the man search, again, it appears you have the timeline mixed up. Here\'s the brief (I hope) trail of events in that regard:
October 2010: He starts flirting with her through text. It excites her. The third time she decides to flirt back thinking it is all in fun. Realizes he is serious, which further excites her, but she goes to him to make sure he knows she can never actually do any of the things they are texting about, because she is happily married. He says he respects that and doesn\'t flirt with her for a few days. At the time, she told me everything up to this point, except if she mentioned how exciting it was, she likely downplayed it.
Nov. 2010: He starts sex chatting again. She believes he knows this is not for real, so decides to play along for the thrill of the ride. It pretty much continues this way through December.
Dec. 2010: He tells her he is moving away. She tells me that, and on the last week I tell her not to see him or be alone with him. She ignores this and has lunch with him on the last day before he heads out of town. He asks her for a blow job. She refuses. They eat lunch. She give him a parting hug. He pulls it out and she ends up giving him a blow job. He leaves town. She doesn\'t tell me any of this, as is pretty much the case from here on out until dday. He does come back for a week to finish getting his things, unknown to me, and she almost goes to him to have sex, but backs out at the last moment and spends the time with me to avoid it.
Jan - Feb 2011: After he left, she misses him a lot. I find his picture on her phone\'s wall paper. She is embarrassed and removes it. It is during this time, Jan or Feb., when she does the search on him to get the info she had written on paper and put in her purse. She said she thought if she could track him down, she could send him a birthday card, is what she told me after dday. But she didn\'t get enough info to really do even that.
Mar 2011: Sometime around the end of Feb. or right at the beginning of March she decides to go on MySpace, because the first man is on there and she tries to friend him, but he apparently never goes on there. But she figures if he wants to find her, that\'s a way he can do it. She finds a couple of guys on MySpace that she ends up having an emotional affair with, mainly sex chatting, and she starts to forget about the first man. It is one of these guys she has phone sex with a couple of times during March/early April. She still rationalizes that she\'s just having innocent fun, but I\'m totally in the dark about it all, thinking the first man out of the picture, she\'ll get over him and things will return to \"normal\" because all I knew that point was she flirted with him. Didn\'t know or suspect anything more had happened.
But a lot happens in March. She also a bit later signs up for the Experience Project site which has a lot of free wheeling sex talk, and it is easy there to find people who want to sex chat. She developed at least two steady EAs there, and several one-time sex chat people. Her time there I think caused her to start looking at sex in a secular sense, as everyone is doing it, no big deal, and erodes her morals even further than what they had been so what happens next had not nearly as much resistance.
Mid March she starts going to the local gym, and ends up meeting the guy there who she has her second local affair with. First they are just workout buddies, but by the end of March it is becoming much more than that, and they start having sex.
Apr - May 11, 2011: She continues the local PA with the guy. He\'s the one she hires to help her with cleaning houses as he is unemployed. She says they never had sex at a clients house, just all work. But what they would normally do is when she went to pick him up at his house, she\'d leave early enough that they could play before going to the job. In addition to this, she is having her EA with mostly two guys at this point, with an occasional one thrown in here and there on the EP site mostly.
May 11, 2011: This is the day as I detail in my journal that I suspected something might be up, so decided to install a key logger and that evening discovered the extent of what was going on as she told one of her EA partners everything she\'d been doing affair wise with the first man and her current one. The next day, 12th, I confronted her about it. The rest can be read on my journals as far as details.
Bottom line, since May 12, 2011, she told me everything that had happened with the first guy, including her search for him (she never told me what she did with the info though I would assume she\'d saved it somewhere, but it seemed insignificant to me at the time because the first guy was gone, wasn\'t coming back, and she had no real reason to contact him if she could find him, and what she did find wasn\'t enough to know where to find him at). I don\'t think her remembering the paper in her purse is trickle truth here. I knew she\'d done it, it wasn\'t after dday that she did this, but several months before dday when she was still missing him a lot. And the first man never did go to any jobs with her. He worked for one of her clients at the time. It was only the second local guy, the one she was having an affair with when I discovered it that was going to jobs with her.
So like I said, it seems you are mixing up time lines here, and people. Easy to do, I know, so many players! But no, she told me all about the search for the first guy on or right after dday when we had our anniversary trip. it wasn\'t new info, nor did she do the search after dday.
Would I have rather she\'d deleted all those pictures and such the week of dday? Sure. I said she should do it and we discussed it, but I could tell she was emotionally attached and while dday knocked her out of the biggest part of the fog, she still had emotional attachments to them as one would expect when you have sex with people and emotional affairs. As \"Not Just Friends\" tells the BS, you can\'t expect them to not have feelings for the OP. You can\'t turn feelings off so easily. Instead, they have to be broken using distance and time away from contact.
Now, I had about three options here. One, I could have cried, complained, harassed her to delete those pictures or I would do something, like separate from her, or divorce her if she wouldn\'t comply. I suppose that might have worked, though i would have had to have been ready to follow through on that if she didn\'t comply either openly or secretly, and I didn\'t feel that alone was marriage threatening enough to go that drastic on it.
Two, I could have gone in secretly and deleted all the pictures I knew about, without her knowledge. As I stated, that would likely result in some major resentment and hurt. Yes, I know, she probably deserved it, but I don\'t go hurting people even if they hurt me. Not a good policy.
Three, I could wait for her to be ready. I chose this option because I felt it would give me a good barometer of what kind of progress she\'s making. If she was secretly hiding things, not being cooperative behind my back, actually seeing other men or sex chatting with other men without my knowledge, I knew she\'d never come to the point where she was ready and willing to get rid of them because she would go back into the fog where those pictures hold value. But if she did come to that point, then I would know she had been telling me the truth about no contact, about not wanting to be with anyone else, that she despises how she was behaving and is filled with guilt for hurting me like she did, etc. I would know that the emotional bonds were getting weaker. Because if she really arrived there, then she\'d practically want to get rid of those things. And she did get to the point where she was actually excited about getting rid of them, which is why she didn\'t stop with the pictures, she\'s worked to clean out any and all vestiges of any connection with any of the men she used to have any kind of affair with.
So, no, I don\'t see any trickle truth here. She\'s been as open and honest about everything as I could expect. And she\'s feeling freer from that past since last week than she ever has to date. Yes, we still have a long ways to go. Many other things could happen along the way. She may be tempted again and we are trying to prepare for those events. We\'re doing whatever we can to prepare and do so our marriage gets stronger and stays that way. As we\'ve said, time will tell.
But as I said, from where I\'m at, the fears you are having about her don\'t jive with what I know and believe to be the case. I could be wrong and you could end up being right. I do fear the later actually happening. But I have to give this chance for it to work, and to do that, I have to trust her to some degree. If that trust is trampled on, there\'s not much left, agreed. But as you said, that is in her hands. I\'ve done everything I know to do to make this work. If it fails, it won\'t be because I didn\'t try as hard as I could. The ball is in her court, and from what I know, she\'s playing it pretty well. Not perfect by any means, but a whole lot better than the majority of CS I hear about on these boards.
On the subject of intimacy,
First, sorry for misunderstanding what you meant by \"sow wild oats.\" The only context I\'ve ever heard that used is for people before they are married to go have sex with whoever and \"get it out of your system\" so when you get married you don\'t think later you\'ve missed out because you\'ve never had sex with anyone else except your mate. That would mean they are generally teens or young adults it would be directed to, though some people don\'t marry until their mid or late thirties or later. I\'ve never heard it applied to multiple marriages.
In the common understanding of sowing one\'s wild oats is what I was talking about, and thought you meant and what I was responding to. I wouldn\'t consider more than one person in separate marriages sowing wild oats, save if you get divorced and remarried every two to five years maybe.
I disagree. I don\'t understand how you can ignore the obvious. The fact is, the more people anything is shared with, the less intimate it becomes. The fewer, the more. It is the foundation of what intimate means. It means you don\'t share whatever with just anyone. It is why marriage is monogamous in our culture. We are basically promising someone that we will devote ourselves to only them in the most intimate ways.
Now, what I\'m not saying is that sex with two, three, or even four men over someone\'s lifetime isn\'t intimate. What I am saying is it isn\'t as intimate on the point of physical intimacy as someone who has only had sex with one other person. Not that the former isn\'t intimate, it\'s just as intimate as the latter. Big difference. So don\'t read me wrong, I\'m not saying your sex with your H isn\'t intimate. But if you\'ve had sex with multiple men, it isn\'t as intimate as what I\'ve had.
Now let me tell you what else I\'m not saying. I\'m not saying that such intimacy as that is:
1) the total of what intimacy in a marriage is about. There is also social intimacy, emotional intimacy which goes way beyond having sex, but includes spending time together, doing things together, talking with each other, all things I wasn\'t doing before the A arose.
2) I\'m not saying that having that level of intimacy will stop deficiencies in other areas from creating problems. It isn\'t a magic pill that will prevent bad things from happening. The A happened not because of her not having had sex with anyone else, nor because I failed to show her that I loved her as I should. They did provide cause for temptation. But she is the one who decided to break her marriage vows. She decided to flirt with other men, to sex chat with them, to give them blow jobs, and have sex with them. To blame that on her not having sex with anyone other than me is more egregious than blaming me because I didn\'t spend enough time with her, which actually had more to do with it if you wanted to measure it.
3) I\'m not saying someone who has sex with only one other person in their entire life isn\'t as intimate as another couple who have had sex with others, but does have other intimacies of marriage in place on an emotional level when the first one doesn\'t. The latter would be more intimate in my opinion than the first.
But if a teen has sex with several people before getting married, it does degrade the meaning and purpose and intimacy of sex once they do get married. And that kind of attitude carried over into a marriage will be a big temptation for them to cheat when their spouse doesn\'t give them what they think they should be getting. I would still believe a teen/young adult who has multiple partners prior to marriage will be more likely to cheat. The genie is out of the bottle and having crossed that line, is more likely to return.
But of course that doesn\'t preclude someone from committing sin even though they have had that purity all these years. And there are people who justify blatant sinful cheating on their spouse because they didn\'t get to have fun when they were a teen or young adult (my mom was one of those).
But I don\'t see how anyone can deny the obvious. The fewer friends you share a secret to, the more intimate it is for the friendship. The more widely you spread it around, the less it means for intimacy. Same with sex. That is so self evident I don\'t know why you think otherwise.
But I\'ve ran into a lot of people who I don\'t know why they ignore what to me are very obvious facts. So we\'ll just have to disagree there. To use the \"Not Just Friends\" analogy, the fewer people you open windows to and let in your room, the more intimate. But that doesn\'t preclude one from having a very high degree of intimacy. Only sharing something with two or three, even four or five can still be very intimate, and yes, one at a time, not multiples at a time. A very satisfying intimacy. But the most intimate sexual experience is if you have one person only that you\'ve had sex with. They are the only people in the world who have seen you naked as an adult (not counting doctors), participated in sexual acts with you, had babies with you. Sexually, how can you get any more intimate than that? And it stands to reason, on some level, once you do that with another person, there are now two bonds of that physical nature you have developed, no longer just one. And the more you add, the more you\'ve bonded with. The more it is shared.
For me, that was very valuable and important. I treasured that reality of our bond because as you stated, not many do that. Because few do it doesn\'t make something true, false. It doesn\'t change reality. Otherwise we\'d have to say a majority of marriage will be cheated on, so therefore lets get real and just accept it instead of fight it. If something is true and right, it is true and right no matter if there is only one person in the world doing it. Or even none.
So, if that\'s how you feel about it, fine and good. I\'m not trying to change your mind as such, but simply answer your response on it and why I disagree with you, and to clear up any misunderstandings on what i was saying, because you responded as if I were saying things I didn\'t say, but apparently you did think I said them.
Hope that clears it up, even if you disagree with my basic premise.
No problem, Cole. The time line was very confusing, indeed. I jsut saw a pattern over months, during the time she was married to you, and shared her body with others. So while you thought you had that sexual intimacy with her, which you value so highly, it was untrue, and she, being your wife, I would think, would know how much that mattered to you. Nonetheless her impulsive, selfish actions, and choices of her own volition destroyed that. So that part is history, as she chose to wipe out the 28 years of personal intimacy with you solely.
And then there is something I am a bit confused about. You mentioned that sex was infrequent, I believe you said once or twice a month??? And then it changed up, to very frequent. Now was that as a result of her weight loss, and she felt better about her body image? Or was this during the time she was going bonkers with other men (blow job, sex, texting, friends, emails, etc). That\'s why I brought up the question of whether she was, at the time, (and possibly now), wanting more sex of you. I\'m wondering whether your increased sex life was directly related to her increased sex life outside of the marriage, and then I wonder was she fantasizing them during your time together, and did they get her excited, so therefore she wanted it more from you. I know that you of corse, liked the increase, who wouldn\'t, but just wondering if that was a farce of sorts, where you are thinking all of a sudden she\'s finding you much more desirable, but it was during the time she also found so many others desirable, and just wondered if you were being used, so to speak???
Yes, I agree, if one has too many partners, it does diminish the intimacy. However, I have heard of extremes like porn stars, who do it for money, and it\'s meaningless, and then turn their lives around, get married, have children, and find it very meaningful. So I\'m not going to conclude that any person who had a lot of meaningless sex, can never find meaning in love, sex, and marriage afterward. Some people change, some get to know the Lord, and some want a \"pure\" relationship, with all the dressings. But, sure, it does seem more special, the less folks one engages with. I just htink that there are exceptions to the rule.
Again, I just hope that this time, she stays true to herself, and you, as well as the marriage, and that this time she doesn\'t destroy the \"trust factor\", because that would be very sad, indeed. But 28 years is a long time, so I understand where you\'d be vested, especially since part of your image of yourself is \"husband to her\", and if that were to change to \"single man\", it\'s like a whole nother universe! lol
And, of course, time will tell! If she is truly sincere, and truly capable of harnessing, as well as overcoming her \"impulsive sporadic needs\", due to love for you being greater than her \"thrill seeking\", then it can work. So, I still think therapy to uncover more \"why\'s\" and \"how\'s\" as far as her justifications as to her stepping out the marriage that much, would be extremely helpful. It would be pro-active, and give you a bit more guidance, and get to know her deeper \"hidden self\". Once that side comes up to full surface, with full disclosure, that can be addressed. But to assume it\'s over, and she\'s out of the fog, I\'m not convinced yet! It took her that many months to play, and deceive, and it may take at least that many months to reveal and heal, at least. That\'s what the books say, anyways! So as much, as we want to overcome the hurdle, by seeing some positive signs, we cannot and should not discount, all the other glaring signs which went on for so long, and had you not discovered it with the keylogger, how long would she have continued???
When the cheater comes forward of their own volition, due to guilt, I feel that I would respect that cheater more, as opposed to their getting \"busted\", and knocked out of the cheating world and fog. That is so addictive, enticing, etc. and that\'s why many times people repeat the same theme, only to be sneakier and more deceptive. They are searching for that \"high\" again, and it will be determined by their personality (strengths and flaws) , their values (or lack thereof, if they even really know what those values are), whether they have true integrity (or lack of), their strength, desires, and being truly honest with themselves and their partners. I know you mentioned something about temptation being out there everywhere, and our secular world does seem to value sex in the media, porn, strippers, hookers, etc most anywhere you turn.
But for me, that is not temptation, it is just plain out there, I choose to ignore the crap out there, and it is not \"tempting\" at all, cuz I don\'t value it at all. I recognize what it is, and what it has the potential to do (destroy a good relationship). I cannot blame the fog, because I would not allow myself to get near the edge to be sucked in by the fog. When one reveres something like God for example, you respect it, but you may also fear his power, control, wrath. I try to apply a similar principle to destructive things in my life, as well. I know the power of booze, and how easily one can become an alcoholic, or any other drug for that matter. One may think, oh, just for fun, I am in control, only to get sucked into it, unwittingly, and unwillignly. Same with hard core drugs. It happens all the time, no one dreams or plans to get addicted, they just do.
Same with porn, I never really got the real understanding, why fake actors, doing all kinds of ridiculous things, would be sexy! It never appealed to me that way, and probably never will. I view sex outside of marriage as well. It\'s fake, it\'s deceptive, it\'s hidden, it\'s shameful for a person to engage in, if they claim they know the Lord, and claim to have integrity.
Call me weird, but it\'s akin to a fire!
Why in the world would I want to step inside of a blaze, knowing full well of the damage it could bestow, the burnt skin, and scarring for life????
To me that\'s what sex outside of marriage is: a fire from hell, which will only destroy you, your partner, your marriage, and it seems fruitless, and like a huge form of self-sabotage. May as well drink yourself to death,or drug yourself to death. And now, in our culture, there\'s this overwhelming emphasis on being \"addicted to sex\", and so many public images utilize this as an excuse, and state they are healed. You cannot heal that, in a month or so, it requires deep pyscho-therapy, an awareness of the problem, and admitting it is so, a desire to change, and all the work and willingness to go along with it, which could take years, if not a lifetime. For those people, it will be a struggle, similar to the alcoholic, cuz it\'s out there, and easily accessible.
I guess, when one reaches the ripe old age of 50, has spent alot of time with introspection, and knowing yourself, you already know all this, and the outcome. If one chooses specific values, and works hard on establishing and obtaining those values, it is much easier. I prefer peace and serenity, I prefer an open book, I prefer honesty, and I prefer a healthy relationship. Those are incongruent to any kind of stupid affair, or stupid moment of weakness, to let all of the other stuff drop! It only takes one stupid moment, one vulnerable moment (by why not choose to not be vulnerable, and not allow that crap to penetrate), and it\'s all undone, unravelled, and has long-lasting ripple effects. It\'s just not worth it!