Women who Love too Much Community Group
WHEN BEING IN LOVE, MEANS BEING IN PAIN... This group is to help women through the journey of realizing they can love themselves. To help realize that they are capable of having a happy, healthy, whole relationship and break the cycle of abuse and heartache from loving emotionally unavailable men.
I found this and thought it was so well put I had to share.
I have been having doubts about my NH but realise after reading this it fits him to a T. !
Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumb to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?
Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:
Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses – his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?
Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?
Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?
Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready? Does he text or phone you multiply and incessantly and insist to know where you are or where you have been at all times?
Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") – or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things – even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family? Does he insist on a "dress code"?
Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Does he call you names, harasses, or ridicules you? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.
Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally – does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he beat or slap you or otherwise mistreats you physically? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?
If you have answered "yes" to any of the above – stay away! He is an abuser.
Then there is the abuser's body language. It comprises an unequivocal series of subtle – but discernible – warning signs. Pay attention to the way your date comports himself – and save yourself a lot of trouble!
from http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse7.html
I have been having doubts about my NH but realise after reading this it fits him to a T. !
Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumb to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?
Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:
Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses – his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?
Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?
Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?
Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready? Does he text or phone you multiply and incessantly and insist to know where you are or where you have been at all times?
Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") – or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things – even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family? Does he insist on a "dress code"?
Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Does he call you names, harasses, or ridicules you? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.
Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally – does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he beat or slap you or otherwise mistreats you physically? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?
If you have answered "yes" to any of the above – stay away! He is an abuser.
Then there is the abuser's body language. It comprises an unequivocal series of subtle – but discernible – warning signs. Pay attention to the way your date comports himself – and save yourself a lot of trouble!
from http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse7.html
I think the flags that I've already picked up on are: hypersensitivity, expresses negative emotions toward the weak,acts in a condescending manner.
it's possible that he's on the spectrum typically people with this disorder don't have much insight. they don't seek treatment. there is not really an effective treatment for them b/c they are so smart they learn the language and how to manipulate around within the context of therapy. they are able to easily manipulate the therapist as well. the problem is entitlement. people with narcissism and sociopathy have a grand sense of entitlement.
i recently wrote a long post about diagnosing people with these disorders b/c it was very easy for me (unqualified) to throw labels around. at the same time it helped me to understand what was happening in my relationship with him. in part of the post i explained how they were going to eliminate the narcissistic personality disorder altogether b/c narcisissm is part of every other personality disorder it's difficult to distinguish it as it's own disorder... all of this came from my therapist whom i respect and i know she's on the cutting edge of what's happening in the mental health field.
the new DSM in the US it's our diagnostic and statistical manual came out last march. it did not eliminate the category of narcissism yet. the professionals who are providing therapy for people with difficult to treat disorders like my ptsd they believe that some time shortly there will be a major shift in the way we think about personailty disorders. they will all probably be on a spectrum and narcissism may be eliminated. the research is growing rapidly. narcissists/sociopaths are extremely difficult to study b/c the only way we can understand them has to be through self report but they don't report accurately b/c they dn't have a lot of insight.. and i even take that with a grain of salt b/c there are other pd's who have a lot of insight and so therefore struggle.
anyway, in the end i backed off of calling my ex a sociopath and am more comfortable calling him an abuser like this article does. that much i know for sure.
so then i went to study abusers and learned that actually a pretty small percent of abusers have personality disorders. abusers are basically about holding an attitude of power and control and entitlement . the way you can tell the difference is if he is an ass clown with just you or just his woman (cave man) or if he is that way with everyone.
i don't know why i felt the need to bring this up again. oh that's why, i realized as i was reading this article that you may be going through this awful painful phase that i went through of needing the validation and confirmation that it wasn't just me. that there was something wrong......i thought........the confusion i felt when i got here was tremendous. and i made the decision to allow myself to study and learn about him and what could be motiviating him and if he can change or not all of those questions i had. but ultimately it came back to me. b/c i'm the one who is attracting and attracted to these men. i just had to say i don't know what's up with him and i'm not qualified to figure it out. all that i know about him is that it didn't feel good to be with him, i was bending myself inside out to please him or avoid his wrath, and that he would never change not b/c he doesn't want to but probably b/c he can't. do you see what i'm trying to say in a very lengthy way???? all we can really do is accept responsibility, fully and get out. and then work on ourselves so it doesn't happen again. it may help you to understand him for now but i'm saying don't get stuck there b/c this is your responsibility...i've seen it happen where a partner gets used to calling him a narcissist and not that she does or always does but is more apt to fall into look at what he did to me.
i'm working on my self worth now.
so in support i'm saying by all means study away!!! but ultimately we can't know what's going on for your husband and ultimately the problem lies with us for choosing and staying with them. study THAT hard. he won't change.......i think it's a great article that you posted b/c it describes specific behaviors and isn't really focusing on NPD.
just wondering if you've gone to baggage reclaim yet??? i love her. she holds us accountable and says it's not important what he's doing or not doing. this journey is about us. but it is also very validating to know and understand that the relationship is indeed troubled and you are being treated in a ways that you do not deserve that are unacceptable. he's the crazy one behaviorally. we are crazy for staying for choosing for staying entangled with them. honestly for me, i'm not sure who was "sicker" i think it could be me. he's just out there doing his thing. he was doing it before i got with him and he's continuing to do it now. i attached myself on to him and then tried to change him or at least expect to be treated better.
whatever you do or whatever you believe or however you frame this for yourself i accept and respect that. i do not judge anyone i'm sharing what i've learned and it took a long time. i was the "identified patient" in my familly and it was the obvious choice b/c i was the one acting out, calling attention to things, breaking family ruules, rocking the boat. truly in the end i was trying to call attention to a bigger problem in the family system. we don't do any of this consciously. i think it's easy for us to identify the man in our lives as the patient. he's th one with the problems, he's abusive! he's a jerk!!!! but the bigger issue is that we allow that into our lives.
da lot of thoughts for you...sorry so long.......
x
I too have always struggled with the 'labels' aspect of things. When I first joined this forum I was very skeptical of psychology. One issue I have with many 'self-help' books is that they spend pages and pages pointing out problems, but offer no constructive advice or detailed steps to follow to actually get better...
I think you are right that in the end, it is better to think of what is wrong with us, rather than to sit there and try to diagnose them or get into their minds. When we are ready. It's very hard to face our own issues...
The answer is, he just is...and why does it bother me that hes different? what difference does it make to me? none at all....
I spend so much energy tossing and turning these things in my mind, trying to find a solution which sits with me.
Im trying to spend that energy on me.
As for me, I am totally dependant on NH right now, as he likesit I now see!, he has all power over the money, I have no car, no job and no funds. SO thats my focus!
xxx
it does sound like you both have isolated you wtih no car no job no money......if there was a way you could start saving some aside money that would be a good plan. and if you got a job it might be a good reason to get a car????
this is a long haul sunny. you're doing well by researching and learning and figuring out what works for you.
i'm trying to steer you away from focusing on your husband and his behavior and taking a closer look at your own and why you've made the choices to be with him to stay with him and to be isolated by him.....we have to do this gently and with great self compassion but that's where it's at....
Seems so feeble right now and I gave him so much control and power just like that.
He is the guy I thought was well respected and such a lovely person which made me feel so lucky he chose me....hmmm I can see clearer now the man I chose.
I even moved away from my children to be with him. I regret that every single day. My ex wasnt letting me have access anyway so I thought I may as well be thirty miles away and not see them than three! NH offered me the opportunity to own my own gallery too, something which hasnt happened, he promised me my dreams would come true - jeeez why did I go for that I have no idea!
So here I am.
Focusing on me bit by bit.
x
(((((((((((sunny))))))))))))) here you are....... you are strong! you are a survivor!! you will prevail in the end!!!
I am glad that you are moving forward in your life, even if it is a struggle. The struggle will only make you stronger, because you are struggling for *you* now.
Sunnyjax I'm also sorry to hear what you are going through. I think it would really be a good idea for you to start taking 'baby steps' to start gaining some financial independence. I would highly suggest you read "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. If you are wondering why your NH acts the way he does, this book will tell you why. To me, this was the most helpful book I have ever read on abusers. I think you have every right to feel hurt that he treats your children better than he treats you. That is so hurtful.
Sunny you are a bright, very talented, attractive woman who is quite capable of raising your children in a happy, narc free home ! I've raised my kids virtually single handed, always worked management jobs, kept my own home, car etc... and never taken a red cent from a man. The only times I really messed up was in relationships with men who didn't deserve me or my kids .... the thing about Narcs is they are initially attracted to us because we are strong, independent , attractive, maternal, compassionate, loving women... the irony is that they want to own us, break us down , project all of their massive insecurities and abuse onto us, then discard and devalue us !!! As mainly co-dependent women with low self esteem and a need to be validated no matter what form it takes, we subconsciously pick these men... and so the cycle of abuse goes around again! It is only when we wake up to ourselves to the soul-pain we have caused ourselves, that we recognise our own issues and can start to detach from these men , and begin our healing journies and blossom and grow into the amazing women we always have been but just didn't recognise about ourselves. Sunny, you have left several marriages, and now you are feeling instinctively many things are not right in your marriage , you are questioning yourself..... you have started your journey back to your authentic self... look at your artwork, what are you painting and what is it telling you? Listen to what your kids say about your NH...kids never lie about these things... see what your friends and family think of him... then make your own decisions. The single parent thing is a red-herring? Many of us have or are in that position and excrutiatingly hard though it is we manage to make things work for our families..... I am not judging, only speaking from my own difficult NH experiences... I will never make those same mistakes again , I now know what a Red Flag is and what it looks like, I will not tolerate any form of aggression , rude or abusive talk or behaviour towards me , even in social situations .... and I now have firm boundaries about what is and what is not acceptable in my life, what is good for me and contributes towards my well being and what is detrimental for me and detracts from it. For me this is progress ... I continue to struggle.. as we all do... but to be on my healing journey is amazing and a blessing . ((((((((((((((((((((hugs to all)))))))))))))))))))
He also has staff coming in to work and I have to prepare lunch for everyone, if Im not there he takes everyone down the Pub to eat (?why?!!) after work is done he sits his lazy ass on the sofa and waits for me to bring his dinner.....pees me off so much that he doesnt even wash up his cup! I refuse to do anything but the bare minimum housework because he does absolutely nothing. He doesnt care of course, justs keeps on sitting on the sofa!
So thats my day really. ...oh and apart from the trying to take me to bed in the afternoons of course- like hes bored so cant think of what else to do! nice, very flattering!
My daughter and I talk all the time, we are very honest and open. I was telling her how disgusted I was with how he treated her and she shrugged and said Mum, look at it this way - it has shown you who he is and made you stand up to him and seriously work at getting a job - so it had a good outcome as far as I was concerned, and I got to tell him what a jerk he is so hey we all win!!! I love her, shes so great!!!
Painting - well I have joined a new art club, they approached me actually - for erotic art - I have a show with them in September so need to do some new work for that. I also start my degree course this week yaaaay!
You spoke about feelings about all this - well they are all in a jumble really. I find it very difficult to vocalise what I am feeling, trying to survive the day and focus on my degree and business I find if I think about how I am feeling then I cant function. But I know that day is coming. I was disgusted by the way he treated my daughter, disgusted by the way he spoke to me in front of his parents and on many other occasions. I am determined not to take anymore of this and to call him out on it whenever he does. But also I am determined to save hard and create some sort of escape route for myself. I feel quite ok with upsetting him now, no longer do I feel scared of him or of upsetting him. Which is a much better way for me to be. I know the day will come when I have the final showdown with him.
I also know he fears abandonment, from a talk with him over the weekend about how his parents dropped him off at Cadet school and left for another country on his 16th birthday. He couldnt talk about it but he was clearly upset. Also this weekend we went away and I actually went for a swim by myself in the hotel pool while he slept! I left a note. When I came back he said he had a nightmare that I had drowned and he couldnt save me sparked by my independently going swimming. I laughed but he had tears in his eyes. weird.
I ordered the book as suggested above, why he does what he does. I am so tight in with him here that its impossible to read it while hes here though.
i'm so happy to hear you are saving hard and no longer afraid to stand up to him!!! THAT is HUGE!!!!
so huge!! WAY TO GO SUNNY!!