Women who Love too Much Community Group
WHEN BEING IN LOVE, MEANS BEING IN PAIN... This group is to help women through the journey of realizing they can love themselves. To help realize that they are capable of having a happy, healthy, whole relationship and break the cycle of abuse and heartache from loving emotionally unavailable men.
My daughter has developed some seriously aggressive traits. she has always had that streak, but now she is 4 years old and nearly got kicked out of daycare/preschool for hitting other kids and screaming at the teacher and lying to her about what happened. She has had incidences before, but NEVER This bad and has been good now for a couple months. She recently found out my ex, who she calls dad but isnt really her dad, is leaving to another state. she sees him a couple days a week. He wasn't abusive, just lazy and irresponsible, not growing up, but generally a good character. He was all she knew. He gave away her kitty without telling her, and then told her about his moving and she has just exploded. People think its me as well... and I don't know what is what with the PTSD issue. Today she hit her baby cousin as well... 4 times. the first time after daycare she tried to lie and say nothing happened. i left her in her room and told her that i did not like liars, especially in my house, and that i did not wish to talk to her until she could be truthful with me. an hour later she told me what happened. I told her that for the entire rest of the day, she would be in her room. there would be no tv, no going outside to play with the neighbors, and only water to drink. we had a long talk about it, like we always do everytime there is an incident. i told her i understand she is confused and her feelings hurt, but that she cant act out and hurt others and there is still an consequence. she seemed to understand even though she cried through her punishment. The next day i took her on a trip to a drive through zoo... that I had planned for a long time. i explained that she was still not going to watch tv or have treats or play outside with the kids at home, but that I wanted to go and had had this planned for a while. we went. we had fun. we went back to her punishment. I was watching my sisters child today and she went after him too. 4 times. I ended up doing time out, and trying to be creative i put a big dot on her hands and feet, for kicking and hitting, and said she had to wear those dots all day and anytime anyone asked her what happened she had to tell them the truth, that she hit her cousin. she had lied about it to me too, so I put a mark on her mouth, to which she also had to tell someone if they asked about how she lied to her mommy. I havent fully explored this yet to see if it works as we were just in the house all day. she didnt seem to like it.
but my biggest concern... im so worried she will be messed up. i feel stupid for letting a man that i knew was always going to be financially irresponsible be her dad when i had a choice in the matter. her real dad has never shown interest in her and as far as i can tell he never will. good riddance really. but now she is losing the one she knows as dad. and i always knew it would happen someday if we werent together. He is kind to her and loves her and i trust him as far as her well being, but he is DIRTY and just doesnt understand about getting off his ass and how important that really is, because im trying to teach her responsibility. anyway... I cant let her go see him, its too far away. i did once let her go back with him by themselves to see his family... who have also adopted her. but they hate me. i just cant take the risk... I just dont know. he wants her summers, or whenever he can figure out. She knows he is not her "real" dad. and I tell her everyone is different, and our family is just smaller but its ok to be smaller... and that people might come in and out of our family until we find the right fit, and that includes daddies. i hate to have to tell her that, but i cant lie to her.
any advice? anyone?
but my biggest concern... im so worried she will be messed up. i feel stupid for letting a man that i knew was always going to be financially irresponsible be her dad when i had a choice in the matter. her real dad has never shown interest in her and as far as i can tell he never will. good riddance really. but now she is losing the one she knows as dad. and i always knew it would happen someday if we werent together. He is kind to her and loves her and i trust him as far as her well being, but he is DIRTY and just doesnt understand about getting off his ass and how important that really is, because im trying to teach her responsibility. anyway... I cant let her go see him, its too far away. i did once let her go back with him by themselves to see his family... who have also adopted her. but they hate me. i just cant take the risk... I just dont know. he wants her summers, or whenever he can figure out. She knows he is not her "real" dad. and I tell her everyone is different, and our family is just smaller but its ok to be smaller... and that people might come in and out of our family until we find the right fit, and that includes daddies. i hate to have to tell her that, but i cant lie to her.
any advice? anyone?
(...)
She will learn that sometimes people leave. I think more importantly is looking at what you're doing. For me, I realized that my daughter's acting out was a reflection of my perceived failure to provide a stable home and i wanted that failure and that reflection to stop. I had to see and accept that i had done the best i could and move forward from that point.
Yes, children need appropriate parameters of behavior. But it can take time for them to get there. PATIENCE AND KINDNESS helped us more than anything. I got rid of the babysitters and daycares that could not grasp these qualities and found others that could.
I want you to know I am not judging you. As i said i know you love your daughter and your both going through a difficult time right now.
We learn from our inner child, we nurture and confort her by promissing to NEVER do what was done to us.
It's a promise we must keep for ourselves, our children are not doomed to relive what was done to us....
((((hugs to both of you))))
the first concern is this: "she seemed to understand even though she cried through her punishment." that sounds alot like spanking to me??? i could be wrong...but hitting or "spanking" whatever you want to call it, no matter what you call it is still hitting a child who is already troubled is a bad bad bad seriously bad combination. if you continue to spank her despite her behavioral problems you ARE asking for trouble.
i'm writing this based on my work experience in the emergency response unit at child protective services.
most parents say i dont' know what else to do. i've tried everything. nothing works.
and to that i say this: GO GET HELP FOR YOUR CHILD!! take her to therapy!!! 4 year olds can bounce back. if you haven't done that you haven't done everything. you have the responsibility to exhaust all options for treating her behavior. she is practically screaming out for your help!!!
the other thing i also found commonly were inappropriate expectations of a 4 year old. she is just a baby. she cannot reason. she cannot think abstractly. your tactic of marking her is a shaming method. some parents believe in an eye for an eye. or if they are embarrased they won't do that again. all that it does is shame the child. how would you like to be marked on the mouth??? if you had done something bad that you knew was wrong how would you like to have to tell EVERYONE who asked why you have marks on your face??? please don't do that dracona. it's not at all compassionate or understanding. it's a set up for failure.
what you may not realize is she is acting out her pain and your pain. all children find a way to make the adult relationships their fault. it's what kids do automatically. she carries the family pain. she cannot help herself. she cannot control herself and it's inappropriate to expect her to. she needs an outlet and honestly your approach is probably making her more frustrated and completely invalidated for her pain.
we know she cannot go around hitting younger kids. she is not doing it on purpose or most likely not to hurt them. she is acting out of her own anger. grief and depression looks different in children than it does in adults. google that...
taking things that she likes away is okay but putting her in her room for an entire day is not effective and not age appropriate. we recommend 1 minute for each year of the child's age in a time out. expecting her to keep her attention on and understand the abstract concepts of huge consequences for lying is expecting too much.
taking away going to the zoo would have been a more natural consequence for her behavior than marking her/shaming her. taking her to the zoo is probbaly confusing to her.
if you slam her down for lying it doesn't stop the lying. it just slams her down. she is lying b/c she is scared of the wrath she will get for hitting when she can't control herself. give her an outlet. show her how to be angry. show her. model to her. the next time you're upset tell her you're upset and you're going to your room for a time out and say to her, lets both do this from now on...when we get upset and feel like we want to hit lets take a time out (4 minutes tops=for both of you) let her come out when she wants to come out as long as it's past 4 minutes. set the timer. talk to her about how to handle her emotions (for a 4 year old, we use mad, sad, glad). don't punish her for having them....please......seek help for you to have some better discipline ideas. set up a sticker chart. let her earn her stars. when she reaches her stars, a low goal, give her a reward. when she hits someonne or lies take a star away. use marbles, have her put her marbles in whenever she does something good without you asking. and tell her to remove a marble when she misbehaves. explain to her why she has to take the marble out. but then encourage her to earn her marbles.....FOLLOW THROUGH!!!
set her up for success. beconsistent. be ridiculously repetitive. please don't spank an aggressive child. that is a pure set up for failure. you can't expect her to act any differently than you are acting. if you hit she will hit.
i hate to tell you this but your words about liars living in your house can make her feel worthless in a hot minute. do you see??? she has to lie after she's hit b/c she know's it's wrong but she can't control it. she has no other way to express her anger right now. kids lie. all kids lie. they lie to get what they want and they lie to not get what they don't want.....try to figure out what's behind the lie and problem solve that, then take a marble away. next time you can tell the truth and earn a marble....
there is a book called the optimistic child by martin seligman. and another book called raising self reliant chldren in a self indulgent world.....
maybe do a little research on basic behaviorism. i'd be happy to talk to you more about the basics of human behavior. how we all learn and how we are disciplined. if you can't help and you are unwilling to learn new discipline methods, please GET her HELP!!!!
all parents love their children. even drug and alcohol addicted parents love their children but they don't always make the best decisions for their children. and sometimes parents put their own needs above their kid's needs. your need for her to stop lying and hitting has become more important than her need to to be able to express herself. help her out.
as far as the men in your life...you have to forgive yourself.....my specialty was perinatal substance abuse. i have seen some SERIOUS damage to newborn babies and we still love those moms and we still respect them as moms and they CAN and do find a way to forgive themselves.....but right now it's about your daughter and getting her to safety and success. your stuff comes later or on your own time.
if you do spank and you do decide not to anymore, go ahead and apologize and explain why mommy spanked her and make the commitment to her that you're not going to spank anymore. instead we're going to try a sticker chart and time outs. whatever....
good luck. if you don't spank and i jumped to conclusions i apologize. you said something iv'e heard before from spanking parents.....and if you refuse to stop spanking always use your non dominant flat hand ONLY on her bottom OVER CLOTHING!! never use an object to hit her. and never leave marks or you couuld go to jail and lose custody. just wanted to put out there what the laws says and the guidelines are. always no violence in any home.
please keep us posted???
NO ONE does this stuff perfectly....just yesterday i blew it with my nanny kids....i chose something convenient that i really wanted over taking issue with a lie that my guy told me. picking battles.
also it must be extra hard to have to parent when grieving. i can't imagine staying tuned in most of the time...
and it's much much much harder to extinguish behavior that we dont' like than it is to grow behavior we do want.....dr phil is a behaviorist and he says it takes 100 ataboys to make up for one insult to a child.
glad we can be here for YOU while you are there for her..
I'm not a mom, but I have worked extensively with kids. What petitpois wriest sums it up beautifully:
Unconditional love is what has been missing in every single life of WWLTM.
Remember: children aren't developmentally mature enough to discern "fault." They often internalize blame for *any* conflict. Yours just happens to act out. Other act "in"(via control behaviors like OCD and Eating Disorders.)
I guess my only 2-cent advice is: be a consistent, loving presence (as I know you are). That sort of absolute steadiness in her life will be a strength she can count on.
Xo
The thing about this forum is that we can post honestly and fear no judgement. I applaud you for your trust and for posting all your concerns and actions regarding your daughter. Big hugs to you during this difficult transition. I remember that time so well with my sons. I lived with my ex N before we were married for 6 1/2 years during which he would leave for his own place and then eventually come back. Sometimes gone for a few days to other times a few months. My sons were 10 months, 23 months, and 5 when we met and I left their daddy to be with this idiot. Each time he left those poor boys suffered through the loss of their "stepdad" and my subsequent grieving and inability to function. I have absolutely been through exactly what you describe.
That being said, I assure you I made some very poor choices. I self medicated with Xanax in his absence and their presence or alcohol. I would forget cleaning or cooking for periods of time. I would lose jobs and we would be financially strapped. I know I have damaged the fragile psyches of my amazing wonderful children. For that I ache every day. They are now 12- almost 13, 14, and 17. However, I have only ever paddled one time. My oldest got 7 swats in second grade over underwear with a wooden paddle for acting out during a test in second grade. I am HORRIFIED admitting this. I carry the guilt every day. He never mentions it but I scarred myself forever let alone perhaps him. Spanking is never the correct approach. It installs the wrong values in a child that physical punish net is OK when in fact it is not. I don't want my sons to ever think they are entitled to hit someone.
A four year old doesn't know that hitting is wrong or why. Your daughter is merely frustrated and isn't able to express it correctly. I like many of the suggestions posted on here. When one of my children struck someone (and not in self defense), I would gently and physically restrain and remove them (by picking them up) and telling them "no no we don't hit others". I allowed them a frustration pillow-- literally a pillow in their room they could pound when frustrated. Once calm they apologized with a hug. I don't have aggressive kids so that's good. But I agree that shaming just helps create another you--- a WWLTM. And mixing a treat (the zoo) with punishment only confuses her and sends mixed messages. Food and drink should NEVER be used to punish. That guarantees a person who develops an eating disorder. This stuff is well documented all over the Internet.
As for your frustration with your daughter, I agree you need to take time outs as well and find better ways to deal with your frustration. Learn not to expect perfection from a 4 year old. Be compassionate and loving. She is grieving a loss as well. The two of you could exercise together or do a Mommy and Me yoga. That is a far healthier outlet for both of you.
Much luck friend. I know these are difficult times. Been there. And honestly, there again right now but with a different set of tools. Including this forum.
if I dont get a handle on this NOW i lose my daycare, which means i cant go to school, which means i LOSE my income because school is my job through the VA now. my income is not enough to move her to a different daycare. I dont have anyone to help watch her that I can afford.
the reason why she was not allowed to play outside with the other kids or watch tv... is because those are things that she hits over or threw a fit about. after hitting kids 2 days in a row, she needed to see that if she hits other kids she cant play with them. we spent the day doing rehersals of what we do when we are angry. how to tell someone when we are frustrated and need help calming down. about walking away. we did this instead of playing outside with other kids. When she screamed at me and came after me, she was to stay in her room until she could calm down and be nice. it just took all day what could have been a few minute time out. she is stubborn. she DOES understand. she says she knows it hurts them but when she is angry she doesnt care. after a couple days of this, she was able to go back to daycare and have a wonderful day being polite and playing with kids, to which our normal activities immediately resumed.
the marks were to keep her conscious of what she did, and so that others near me would help me tell her that hitting is not the answer. I didnt just start out doing that, and it was just for a day after she hurt her little cousin, after having hit kids at daycare 2 days in a row. she wasnt allowed back at daycare for a couple days either.
I posted this on here because typical things arent working. This is as bad as it has gotten, but it has been going on a long time, and i always have been able to get a handle on it before. ive had to bear hug her when she attacks me telling her i love her and that i would let her go when she calmed down while she screamed bloody murder and almost got the cops called on me cause she started screaming help. but if i let her go she would immediately go back to hitting me.
I do progressive discipline. i dont like to be harsh. but ive had to at this point. its not an eye for an eye.
I do not withhold food from her. I withhold sugar. juice has sugar. very little juice is actual juice. and even the 100 percent juice has been so processed it can be months old by the time it hits the shelf. water is better. she can have fresh fruit. she eats plenty. juice is more of a treat that i dont mind her having most times, but when she starts throwing fits about it and being aggressive about it after hitting kids, its out the window.
I had a very extensive sticker chart based on contigency plans. it worked well for a while.... though it took forever to get people on board with it cause one day not having it and she would take 10 steps backwards but once it was in full effect things were great. Then it stopped working. then if she got a "sad face" sticker she would tear down the chart and throw it in the garbage. she started to demand rewards, and i didnt over reward her mind you... she had to earn "happy faces" for her treats. if she got a whole day with no sad faces, then she got a star. she could save up stars to get things or do special bigger things... like going to chuckie cheese, or getting a new video game for her leapster. we would agree on how many stars she would need for that, and i would take her to get whatever she deemed those stars would be used for.
not everything was based on this... we do things just cause sometimes too.
we do alot. we paint, we draw... we go on walks... we ride horses... we go fishing... swimming... beaches... we read...
anytime i have the time to we are doing something. especially because when i was working i couldnt do those things with her like i can now even though i make much less money.
Im just at a loss.
I know she is acting out. I also know how smart she is. We are trying to get her to stop, me, the counselors, the daycare. and once her "dad" is gone, he can stay gone, as much as that means i lose nearly all of my friends. He is only moving because he cant be responsible. he has a job that pays decent, and says he "cant afford" anything to live here or anything else. he would rather spend his money on video games and eating out and not growing up than to be the father he claims himself to be. I live on a very small budget and I manage.
People want to blame me more than him, because i left him.
when it comes down to it... I can play with her, talk with her... go through this with her... but she has to learn that she cannot act out this way. we can run and cry and be sad, and its ok to be sad. but its not ok to hurt others because we are sad. she may be only 4, and maybe she isnt supposed to have to learn this now, but she has to. These are the cards we were dealt, and i don't have a huge support chain.
part of it is, she hasnt had stability or structure, but she does now.
when she lies to me i ask her if she lies. i explain about lying and ask her to go think about it and come back in a minute when she feels she wants to tell me the truth, and she ALWAYS does. she has never told a continuing lie to me. I promised her I would never lie to her. and i wont. I dont lie to anyone.
I have been a Pre-school teacher for seven years and have learned as well as experienced that young children do not handle change very well at all. They seem to act out when they don't know what to do with the feelings they are having. Your daughter lost her Kitty and now is losing the one Dad that she cared for. That's a lot loss for a four year old. She is not mature enough or experienced enough to have developed good coping skils.
From what I have read so far the only thing being addressed is her behavior and not her feelings. Bad bevaior should be punished and and any form of good behavior should be rewarded. Maybe you can try to give her incentives for work towards. Just some food for thought. The best to you both.
God doesn't make mistakes when he chooses parents for each child.... you are her Mom for a lifetime, be careful what you teach her. God Bless you both (((((((((hugs)))))))))))))) 2Butterfly
Something is definitely triggering her anger. Is she your only child? Young children need discipline, guidance as well as love and affection. I have seen some really horrible little children turn it around during punishment if you give them an educational book or toy with music, (so at least they are learning something) even though they can't have or do what they want to do; they get the CHOICE to entertain themselves and not just sit there doing nothing and thinking about "Why ME I am hurting and no one seems to understand my pain"
I remember an old Saying on the airlines; "Put your seatbelt /oxygen on first"; so you can help someone else.
I hope you don't feel like I am intruding however I raised one son and have 5 grandchildren. I learned alot
from my mistakes and experiences. These are just some suggestions you might consider. Take Care and God Bless!!!