Wow. Everything you said hits home, not because I am there yet but because it is everything I fear and exactly how I can imagine it unfolding. To me it seems just as scary to be on a slippery slope where everyone is in denial about transitioning and then whammo -- you're there! Our therapist has made a point to say that it is ALL transitioning, any expression of their other side, whether it is shaving or sitting to be or surgery. Each is just one part of it but it is all transitioning. So it may help if you both start excepting that even if there is no surgery involved or no living full-time as a woman, he is already transitioning. I am saying it may help because then you are not waiting for some magical moment - living in limbo in the meanwhile.

I am no therapist, but I would say there is no magic answer, only best possible solutions for you and your family. Only you and your spouse can decide if you can live as friends or would be happier apart. As far as learning to be attracted to the changes -- I am not sure. I have been wondering this myself. I suspect that you can change your attraction to some degree, but maybe not completely. I think you are on to something about wanting what you have instead of missing what you had. I think you have to be able to truly do that before you can know for sure how much you can be attracted to the changes. Missing what you had will always poison the well of the new changes, so until you can let that go, it will get in the way. It sounds hard though, I admit. I only hope I can do that if and when the time comes. And it is very possible that even then you may not be attracted to all the changes. And I don't think that makes you shallow. First of all, the changes are more than cosmetic. Second of all, we only have so much control over our attractions.

A couple of questions, does he (I am using "he" because you did) still seem attracted to you? I find attraction sort of feeds on itself. So if you don't feel like you are attractive to him, it could be making you feel less attracted to him. It is a 2-way street, so maybe something you can work on together to see if you can bring it up a notch. Also, did he consider all this future stuff before he went on hormones? It would seem he would have thought about telling the kids/family and the impact on your relationship before deciding to start hormones. If so, have those thoughts changed over the past year and a half.

You know I wish you the best. Keep continuing to come back here as you work through it and we will do our best to be here for you.

Hugs

Hi IAQ, I really feel for you. Like GR, everything you say is what is my greatest fear about hormones - the not wanting to go back, the changes, the loss of sexual desire. losing the person you fell in love with.
There can be an in-between land, but he has got to be ok with that, and only he can decide that. Only a very small number of TGs actually transition fully. Most find a way of dealing with their dysphoria, at different levels - under-dressing, shaving body hair, occasional cross-dressing, wearing make up etc- but for some that is not enough. It really depends on how bad the dysphoria is.
I don't think I could deal with anything more than my partner is already doing - I don't mind all over body shaving actually - I wouldn't even mind hormone treatment if it wasn't for the physical changes, and the fact that for many, once they start, they want to go further and further, and he understands that.
I know our love is supposed to be unconditional - but is the love between adults ever really unconditional? Would you still love him if he killed or raped someone? If he cheated? If he did something to hurt your children? There is not much more drastic than changing gender, and to expect us to feel the same way about them whatever gender they are is unrealistic.
Did the two of you discuss the hormone treatment before he started? did you both clearly understand the implications? Were you ok with it?
I do wish you both the best and hope you can find a way to work things out. Sorry I can't really give any good advice, I'm floundering too.

Hi Gr and Sylph,
Thanks for the support. It's wishful thinking, wanting that magic answer but we'll only find it between the two of us.
Right now now one in our family or social circles know, only our doctor, my and his therapist and of course the two of us. He presents as male, and won't present as female yet to anyone except his therapist. He's uncomfortable presenting as female to me although I've suggested it. I've only seen her once fully dressed. Honestly, she looked pretty good, not sure if she would pass 100% but I was surprised.
Over the last 3 years, he's been on spiro only then graduated to estrogen and spiro, both low dose. His body responds really well to the hormones and he loves, loves, LOVES it. He's mentioned he's like to try a higher dose. In answer to your question, did we discuss him going on hormones and what the possible implications will be. To a certain extent. In a discussion he said he's really curious on how low dose estrogen would make him feel. He said if he tried it, he could always stop taking it, but he's curious. A few weeks later, after I was away for a weekend, he tells me during dinner the first night I was back that he started estrogen a week ago. I was floored, and really upset because I had no idea he had planned it. Maybe if I was a part of the decision and maybe if I had some warning, I could have dealt with it better, got my head around it. But to make the doctor appointment, go to it, fill the prescription and then tell your wife a week later, how was I to react? He planned it and didn't tell me. I felt lied to. Is omission of information count as a lie? I've told him over and over, I'd rather hear what's going on than with him even if it's something I don't agree with. At least then I know what I'm dealing with. I really feel I'm in the dark, he tells me one thing but does another. His argument is that he doesn't want to upset me. We're trying to communicate and it is getting a bit better.
So here we are, a good 1 1/2 years of him being on hormones, changes are happening, and I know there's no going back for him. So there's only going forward, in what way I don't know. He has no idea how our kids will react, or the rest of our family. He's confident we will separate if he progresses. I've said all along, I will stay for however long I'm able to. I'm not attracted to women and he knows that, so if he transitions, I have to decide what I will do. Some days I think he's waiting to get caught, forced to come out.
As for intimacy and attraction, I'm at fault here. He doesn't want to separate and is still attracted to me. It's me who's having a hard time being attracted to his new body and the changes he's going through. Your right GR, attraction is a 2 way street and I know it doesn't make him feel great knowing I'm not attracted to him. It's a bad circle, we keep spinning not going anywhere. If I could learn how to be attracted to these changes, it would help. Gawd...it's just tough right now.
I've been on different sites looking for any clue on how to make this work, including Susan's and it seems to come up a lot that the spouse's love is conditional. If I can't accept the changes of what transitioning brings, then my love for my spouse wasn't true and real. WTF is that? After being together 30 years, the ups and downs during that time which every relationship goes through, most recently with him being laid off a few years ago, supporting his dream of trying his own business although it still hasn't brought any money in, plus trying to figure out how to help and support him with his dysphoria, I get annoyed with that statement. Don't tell me I'm not supportive and don't question my love. You haven't walked in my shoes so don't judge where I stand. Every relationship is different, and how people deal with their challenges in their life is different. Changing gender is a pretty big thing, at least to me. I asked my husband if the tables were reversed and if I went on hormones, grew body hair maybe a beard if I could, got rid of my breasts, developed muscle and everything else that society deems as male, would he still be attracted to me. He said he didn't know. I've asked him if he transitions does he think he'd be attracted to males. He said he didn't know.
So there you go, no one knows really how things can play out. We can only do the best we can do with what we have, and that's what I'm trying to do.
Thanks for support and the responses. It's nice to talk to someone.

HI IAQ, my partner also started taking spiro, off the internet, without telling me. He kept it secret but I noticed a few subtle changes in his body and asked him outright and he admitted it. I was furious, but at least with T blockers, any effects are reversed, and he stopped. With oestrogen I believe things like breast development and genital shrinkage can't be reversed, although the emotional effects can be.
I asked my guy the same question about if roles were reversed and he admits that if I changed sex he certainly would NOT be attracted to me! He understands how I feel and says he's ok to not go any further and accept that his life is never going to be truly fulfilled. He says he's fine with that - he's had 62 years of it so far and has never been anywhere near suicide or bad depression - so why not just carry on? This however makes me feel very sad, and very guilty.
I think if hormones ONLY had an effect on the mind, I'd be ok with him taking them. I like his 'female' side emotionally. But I don't think I could cope with the breasts and loss of the sex life that we currently enjoy. And terrified that it wouldn't stop at that.
There are so many unknowns in this for all of us, makes it hard to think about the future.
Take care xxx

IAQ, I'm trans and had surgery last April. Our situation is rather different than most in that I was up front with my SO from our first date about being trans. Unfortunately (from both out points of view) she wasn't a big fan of me transitioning medically and that was one of the reasons I stayed closeted with the outside world while living with her as feminine.

18 years later she still didn't want me to but my depression had been worsening for several years and every time we addressed an issue, gender was there at the bottom of it. I tried really hard not to transition and I don't blame my GF at all for my choice to delay, she was part of it and I did feel she was manipulative both back then and when I decided I needed to transition.

We are also managing ok. I went straight to a full transition dose and started preparing for GCS which I had a little over and year later, call it the ripping off the band-aid plan.

And now 7+ months post op we're enjoying a healthy sex life and yes this means we're effectively lesbian. Thing is, to me we always have been that and for now part of the reason things are working is I know how to please her sexually and she values the relationship too much not to give it a go.

We continued to have a satisfying sexual relationship during the time I was pre-op and on hrt. My libido had been dented for a few months and progesterone seems to be the thing I needed to regain my libido. Now I probably could have limped along forever on just HRT however for me hindsight makes it clear that I'm 1000% happier already. There are so many things that have just fallen into place, many of which had never been on my radar.

I'm not saying my situation is similar to your husband's however I can attest to the mental pain I went through when I went off hrt at 6 months after I started to see if I really needed it and then again for a whole month pre surgery. And by the way, even after 14 months of having a natal female's hormonal profile, as soon as I went off E, my testicles were again producing T.

If my GF needed to end the relationship I'd accept that, so far we are doing ok. We talk a lot, that helps. The nearly 2 weeks we barely talked after I told her I needed to start estrogen and felt it was likely I'd want surgery kinda sucked but it was what I'd expected.

I don't have any advice except to say that imx sex ultimately happens in the brain as well as the body and the brain can learn. My GF still tends to handle a partner the way a woman handles a man and that bit still isn't easy for me.

I'd had sex with a few primarily or formerly lesbian women and my experience has been that they really are different. Now I guess I can say we are different or I am.

So I can really see how just as I have a partner who's been able to make a bit of a leap, it's not her natural inclination, you may not be able or even simply not want to make that leap.

And an aside, sylph I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare transition to harming children, assault or murder. Not that I haven't heard comparisons like that before, I don't find them helpful.

InaQuandary, I know this is so very difficult and it's really easy to see things as 'my husband is disappearing right before my eyes'. When you think that way, you're missing the bigger picture. He's not really disappearing, he's slowly being replaced by a she who's fantastic and perfect and happier and better than what you had before. You had a husband who was living a lie and was unhappy pretending to be something he truly didn't feel inside. Most of us can empathize, right up until she wants to be who she was meant to be, because that's what really tests us as women and human beings.

Many of us are so programmed to think about gender and sexuality one way, that we don't even realize we're selling ourselves short on experiencing all the wonderful things a trans partner has to offer. We cognitively know that exists because we're not stupid, yet it somehow doesn't quite seem to be something that we can reach out and grasp onto.

The bottom line for me is, as my partner moves along this continuum towards deciding what he wants, it's an opportunity for me as a human being to find the moments that connects us, enjoy watching him come into his own and take pride in the person he's becoming. If he decided more is the correct path, then I'll support the her as she slowly emerges.

I guess in my world love really is unconditional. Comparing a person who transitions to a murderer or a rapist is just perhaps the most offensive statement I've ever heard. Killing, raping, hurting children and cheating are all personal choices a person makes in their life. Being trans isn't something a person chooses. The only choice is to transition, not to transition, or to what degree truly makes the person feel comfortable in their own skin.

Expecting people to make such personal and profound decisions about their body and how they live their life based on staying in a marriage fells like slapping an already struggling person right in the face. All these little dances back and forth partners do sometimes needs to happen and is all part of dealing with the issue at hand. That said, a good deal of it is simple manipulation to keep their trans partners stuck someplace they don't want to be, because the partner feels more comfortable there.

This isn't about me, it's about my trans partner's needs. I'm empathetic to gallinarosa's concern about if her partner still be attracted to her after the transition. I don't know how anyone can really answer that. Someone can't honestly say how they will feel once they are a completely different gender. We're not just trading out body parts here. We're learning to become an entirely different gendered person. We're walking differently, sitting differently, speaking differently and presenting differently to the entire world in addition to the hormones and reassignment surgery. The thing is, there are never any guarantees in cisgendered relationships either.

All I can say is my partner is worth sticking it out for. I can sometimes see her in my mind's eye fully transitioned and to me she's still the funny, quirky, attractive, intelligent person I feel in love with. Maybe I'm the one being stubborn, but I could never see her as less. Sometimes different can be better.

I think the key here is that different doesn't necessarily have to be better OR worse, but different IS different. And when Gutted describes how it is not just trading out body parts, but lists out a whole bunch of "differents" they become, then you have to take into account that the transitioned person is not exactly the same person we said "I do" to. And at that point the transitioned person and their partner both have to decide if the relationship still works. And neither side is to blame if one or both cannot continue in the relationship. And either way, it can suck to have to consider that big of a change at all. And IAQ has every right to feel like it sucks and if she doesn't want to stay if her spouse continues, that is not wrong or manipulative, it is just the cold, hard facts. Same as if the transitioning spouse turns out to be attracted to the opposite sex. It would suck, and it can be horrible living in the limbo until you know how everything is going to shake out - especially if you come from a previously very stable relationship that you worked hard for over the years. And as much as you can say the CIS spouse is trying to keep the trans spouse stuck somewhere they don't want to be, you can flip it around and say the trans spouse, in trying to guilt their partner into staying with them, is trying to keep the CIS spouse somewhere THEY don't want to be. If IAQ has been trying for a year and a half to stay with and be attracted to her partner who is on HRT and has had significant physical changes, it's not like she isn't trying. Maybe she will find she just is not attracted to women. And maybe she will still love her partner (because most of the time, our love isn't conditional as everyone likes to say, but our attraction is), but maybe she won't want to spend the rest of her life in a sexless marriage.

The comparison to murderers IS over the top and I don't think Sylph meant it to be so mean. It is really hard to come up with accurate analogies here. I often try. Like what if my husband came home and told me he identified with the complete opposite end of the political spectrum and that he had been hiding it from me the whole time and that he'd like to start living true to himself. Given how politically extreme we both are and how aligned we are, I think this was as close an analogy I could think of but it still isn't right. The lack of any analogous situations makes it hard to talk about sometimes.

Probably one thing that makes Sadie and Gutted different here are the fact that you and your partners always knew the true sides of each other. I think the hardest part for the rest of us is that in hiding their true selves for decades, they presented us something not quite accurate. And by no fault of our own, we have to reconcile that the people we fell in love with were mirages. It is not easy. But I hope there is still hope for these relationships. I hope IAQ continues trying until she can't and I hope they learn to love the new identity/relationship.

Good luck IAQ!

Hi again, Sorry if I offended anyone with the murder/rapist statement. I was in no way saying that transition was in any way comparable. Of course it isn't. I was just alluding to the 'if you love someone it has to be unconditional no matter what, and if you don't it's not real love' statement which has been bandied about a few times. That is all I'm saying. Love between a couple sometimes has conditions.
I love my partner. He can be moody, arrogant, uncaring, anti-social, but I still love him. If he did something really really bad and evil, I would lose my love for him. If he transitions, I will still love him/her, but I doubt we would stay together as a couple.
I also think a relationship has to work two ways. I don't expect him to sacrifice his happiness totally for me, but neither does he expect me to do that for him. We both have to be a bit selfish, and a bit self-less too. This is what we are working on at the moment - finding some sort of middle ground that works for both of us. At the moment, we are pretty well there, at a place we find acceptable to us BOTH. Not JUST him and not JUST me. We have fallen more deeply in love than we have ever been in recent months, albeit with lots of tears.
Again, sorry for any offence, maybe it wasn't the best choice of words (my mind is pretty well mush at the moment)
love and strength to all.

Hi InAQuandry,
My spouse definitely feels the same way--like is he just trading one set of problems for another? Sometimes my spouse says he doesn't want to transition because of this.

I think your way of saying it "I'll stay with him as long as I can" is actually a really beautiful thing. Like it acknowledges that this might not work out, but also you'll make that decision when it's necessary. Obviously, knowing when that time is can be difficult. For me, I think I struggle because I put timelines on things and that can be stressful. I really like how your timeline is open ended.

I think the whole "love is unconditional" phrase can be really harmful because I think the concept of "boundaries" is really important to healthy relationships. Boundaries help other acknowledge that you are a human with feelings and needs. Not acknowledging that can lead down a path of abuse, no matter how well-intentioned.

Unconditional love from one of my favorite bloggers:

Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another person without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s unconditional love when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.

It is not unconditional love when other people like us for doing what they want or because we give them what they demand of us. Under those conditions we’re just “paying” for love in a way (or literally in some cases) with what we do to get the other person's love.

We can be certain that we’re receiving unconditional love only when we make foolish mistakes, when we fail to do what other people want, and even when we get in their way, but they don’t feel disappointed or irritated with us. When we make a decision they don't approve of about our lives, take a wrong turn, undo or sabotage our own happiness... its unconditional love that keeps them right there, not judging or punishing but loving without conditions. It’s that love alone that has the power to heal all wounds, bind people together, and create relationships quite beyond our present capacity to imagine.

Loving unconditionally is the act of extending ourselves, vulnerabilities and all, into uncharted emotional territory with the belief that regardless of the outcome, we want to benefit another person. Imagine love as a behavior in and of itself, with the satisfaction being that feeling you get when you act a certain way for them, not when someone else acts a certain way to you. This becomes a pure act of generosity.

It's not something you can pretend to have. Playing the martyr is not rewarding or validating and only leaves you and the other person resentful.

Unconditional love is not about allowing anyone to take advantage of you. It's about treating the other person with love and respect and being there for them, even when you have to set boundaries to protect your own feelings and mental health, and even when the relationship changes into something that no longer works for you personally. It's about being the person's best friend even if you chose to no longer have them as a lover.

Gutted,

I can get behind that definition. The last paragraph is where it opens up. I think you could extrapolate from that, that sometimes what's best for your partner isn't what's best for you relationship and as sad as it makes you, ending it could be the most considerate act of unconditional love.

Most of us walk in that foggy area - both partners tied to different pasts they don't want to let go of and both wanting to do what's best for the person they love. I think it fits into this definition of unconditional love.

But many of us hear from our spouses and others, that if we even consider the marriage might be over, that our love is conditional. These words are really hurtful so as soon as I see them being thrown around, I get a bit triggered. I think most people use this phrase as a weapon and I don't think they believe in the last paragraph you posted. But you did not use it that way in your previous post. Sorry if I seemed a bit touchy. It's been a long week :)

I agree that the term is thrown around too much with no general consensus on what it really means. I never intended to be hurtful. I was simply trying to say that my love runs deep and is not contingent on anything he chooses to do in relation to being gender-fluid or transitioning. Maybe I'm being naive, but that's how I feel. I put the person before the marriage. It's not even hard because I want him happy more than I want to maintain the status quo.

However this goes down, I'm never letting him go. If for some unforeseeable reason we don't stay married, I know deep down inside that we'll continue be best friends. I'm never letting the person I love go or giving up on having a positive relationship with him, even if he transitions fully and is not physically attracted to me as a spouse. I don't really know how it is that I'm so adaptable in my thinking in this regard, I just am. The only way I'd ever disappear from his life is if he asked me to. Now that would be incredibly painful for me, on a level I don't even have words to say.

It's a pretty tricky situation, that's all I can say. I don't know how things will ultimately work out. What I do know is that I love my partner, I have for 30 years and it's why I'm still here, and I will continue to love him. We've been through a lot together...achievements, celebrations, loses and deaths. There's a really big fundamental change going on with our relationship at the moment and for the first time in our marriage I really don't know how it's going to 'shake out' if I can borrow GR's terminology. For the first time in my life I'm not feeling confident our marriage can endure this.

I'm happy for you Sadie that you've transitioned and you're happy, and that you and your spouse are 'managing okay', Being over 7 months post op, I'll be interested to see how your relationship changes and develops. As my husband transitions, and he is transitioning, I will have to see if I can manage that leap. It's not just the sex, it's the intimacy and deep connection with him that I miss. I also know the brain does play a big part in that, and I am trying to make that leap so to speak. Whether or not I can remains to be seen. The tough part for me is that we're not making decisions together anymore and we have been for 30 years, which contributes to my feeling of disconnect. We're working on that.

Gutted, I'm glad you're able to be so adaptable and can love and accept your partner regardless of what the world throws at the both of you. However, I don't think I'm a lesser human being or a lesser woman if I decide that these changes are just too much. I fell in love with the entire package and the changes that are happening are huge. I want my husband to be happy, he's struggled with his all his life and he's trying so hard to find inner peace. If that means he transitions, then I will support him in his decision. It may mean that I may not stay married to him, but I will continue to support and love him. You can love and support someone without being married to them. Or maybe we will remain married? I don't know. We've got a lot of years behind us, children and a life we built together to completely walk away.

Thanks for the feedback and support. I wish everyone well on their own journey.

OMG I could have written the same post. I am going through the same things about my husband's body changing, the non-existent sex life and feeling like you're living as roommates. You put everything into words that I am in feeling so thank you for making me feel that I'm not alone in my emotions.