Mary: Thanks for the clarification. I would really hate to think that anyone in anyone of those groups would support these things. I really have some clear set boundaries about issues with minors. But...that is "me." I really have a distaste for the use of porn....any porn. I have yet to ever accept that there is any benefit to that media at all...for anyone. Thing is...that the choice to view those things was his choice. What he chose to view was his choice. When speaking with my Hs therapist I said, "I think that if you put a carrot in front of an ass long enough, it will seek to eat the carrot...and I think that "as a man thinks...he is" and that we will find ourselves "doing" what we most think about." The therapist agreed. I told my H, if you continue to seek that carrot, you will go farther into your fantasy world...until your fantasy world overcomes you. The therapist also agreed with that. And, even if he hadn't...I still know it's true.

My H chose to quit entertaining his fantasy images, realizing that he was leaving "real" life behind...lost in the dust of constant fantasy. He chose to see how fantasy was replacing reality...more and more. So, he chose to stop living in fantasy, and instead to start persuing the goodness of "reality." I'm glad. Because though I will not tolerate that way of life, I would hate to lose the good parts of the man...as there are many.

I wasn't responsible for his choices. I never will be. But, I do get to choose what I will tolerate in my life, co-joined with me...and I chose to not participate, nor allow, nor placate, nor justify, nor tolerate things that are opposite my morals, beliefs, values and feelings. He stood alone in his choices...I wasn't a participant in them. I did not turn my head and let him dictate the quality of my life. I did not pretend it was ok. It's not ok...with me...and that is really all that matters.

Your feelings, beliefs as you stated are the same regarding his behavior...and can anyone question what you believe in your heart is right? You are doing well in telling the truth of how you feel, what you believe, and in standing up for what is right. There is never any good in degradation is there? Whether in fantasy, or reality. At the very least, I don't think there is.

Thank you. I do also abhore any "sexual" issue relating to children,, even little miss pagents ,encouraging provocative clothing etc.. I am a survier of incest so this is especially painful.. one thing I do have to say is, since the day I told him about this, he has stopped( I do have ways of still seeing what he does on the computer). and has been to SA and SLA meetings, has an SLA sponsor, and saw his therapist 3 times. So, in terms of what you said about the therapist, she is "assuming" he has stopped and that is probably why she is not alerting the auhorites. I personally dont think he will completely stop. Sex is much more powerful than any drug..and I speak fronm experience. He told me he would let me know if he has a "slip" and watches again. The thing is, its not ALWAYS young teesn, and he may stay away from that even if he slips.. But I dont trust yet.. I may never completly trust him when it comes to this young teen issue. Like you said.. who would ever think to type such a thing in unless there was a specific deviation that way? I did recently hear someone share that they watched gay porn..sought it out, but that person was NOT gay in terms of actual physical contact. This is all very hard to understand for me. I will keep you posted,,a dn again thank you so much!

Mary - I don't believe that you need to go to those lengths in order to prove to yourself that what your H did was inappropriate behavior. What I will tell you is that many of these sites have "barely legal" women. There is no way to prove that these women are over or under the age of 17 as most probably lie about their age any way and certainly there are no safeguards in the world of prn. My point is, don't dwell on the specifics of it because these are the "crazy making" behaviors that interrup our recovery and keep the focus off of us.
Bottom line is all addicts probably look at stuff that is inappropriate because they have no healthy boundaries whatsoever period!
Try to focus on the recovery part of the addiction as opposed to the acting out part. If your H is doing everything possible to become sober please understand that sobriety takes months, not days or weeks. In that time, keep the focus on yourself. When your H has reached enough sobriety that his brain chemistry returns to somewhat normal, he will better be able to communicat to you the depths of his actions, take responsibility for those actions and continue to move forward in his own recovery.

Mary - I also want to add that for me, like Sheen, young women (not all young women), but certainly anyone my H may have come into contact with even without acting out, will be a trigger for me. Ironically, I had this conversation today with my H about this. These are the side effects of trauma. I am in no way in competition with them nor am I responsible for my H's addiction, recovery or anything else having to do with that, but I do have my triggers and I speak of them openly because the more I talk about it, the less power they will have over me.

thank you wachit and sheen! SUCH good advise and direction !!

:) mj

Mary: I am so sorry to hear that you suffered from incest in your family. That must really be a tough thing to reason with. I have not been a victim of incest. But, I have two brothers who involved themselves that way...or at least I believe that's true....with neices and a daughter. Those same brothers were raised in the same home I was. We are morally opposite. They seem to exhibit no good morals at all. So, where it came from...I'm not sure. But, even at that distance, it was "very" disturbing to me. So, it must be especially hard for you. At the very least, not your fault...some people are waaaay disturbed!

I've read this too " I did recently hear someone share that they watched gay porn..sought it out, but that person was NOT gay in terms of actual physical contact." I've also read that they can "physically act out with another like sex person and that they are not gay. One of the SAs on the SA site has sex with random men in bathrooms...and claims that he is not gay. He is married to a woman. So, I don't think he's gay either. He may well be bi-sexual regarding his interests in sex...not love? I think that "gay" is a term for a person who actually "loves" another person of the same sex. Where homosexuality doesn't imply love...it just implies sexual interest.

Now, I don't know...because I am of neither of those persuasions, but I do know that in order for "me" to engage in, or enjoy sex, I must be attracted to that person in "some" way....or at the very least their physical presence...or at the very least on a strictly sexual level. Now, true, I have engaged in sex (not a good idea at all back then...shame on me) with men I wasn't in love with. Strictly for the sexual thrill and hopes for little more. But, though I "really" goofed in that regard, I am in no way attracted sexually to women, so, I'm not likely to ever engage in sex with a woman...because there is no sexual attraction at all. And, even on a strictly sex for the sake of sex encounter, I would be disinterested.

Consequently, I have difficulty comprehending how a person can engage in sex...and yet be disinterested in the other? Else why not just masturbate? I think the gent I'm speaking of engages primarily in oral sex with men. He says it's easier, because random women are not likely to meet him in the mens' toilet for oral sex. So, it is oral sex with men that he seeks...because they are willing? I can't quite separate how he feels he isn't homsexual. He does exhibit having sexual interest in men? His wife didn't refuse him that activity...and yet...he seeks it from men...but he's not homosexual? Hmmmmmmm. Back when I was younger, that was referred to psychologically as "latent" homosexuality. Now, it SA?

You said that this is hard to understand. That statement would be very hard for anyone to understand. I think that the only ones who understand it, if it's even true, and even if they believe it, are the "only" ones who understand it. So, any outsider, any regular guy wouldn't understand either. Even my H said those statements are crazy. Much less a woman, and a wife thinking it's hard to understand.

But again, it is "his" mentality that has the quirks. Not yours. And no one would react quite serenely to the shock of a mate behaving in these ways. How does one react to an insane circumstance in a sane way? I "think" that one checks inside themselves for the truth of the matter. And, when initially confronted with the issues, that reaction is immediate, before anyone else attempts to alter or justify the behavior. And, not matter what I read, I've yet come to any place of justification. I can identify it as only what it is...wrong.

I am having a difficult time right now..just had a big fight with him.. he is being so "nice" almost too nice.. I told him the thing that would have the greatest impact on my recovery would be his taking a polygraph, and his being willing to take a polygraph.. there was dead silence- this man who was being so NICE to me became silent an irritated. He said "people I talk to dont think its a good idea.. and its putting faith in technology instead of faith in God and the 12 step program".. what a load of BS..
He said he is afraid that the person giving the polygraph will give a false reading and his life wil be over.. our marriage would be over.. seems abit dramatic.. he said he has been praying about that issue of the poly but " God hasnt answered him yet".. he is now denying that he ever looked at underrage porn..period.. I'm having a dfifficult time working on my recovery when he is in my face everyday talking about his recovery..tryiing to convince me.. now he even says that ALL he did was porn, and after going to these SA meetings, he is a pussycat compared to the other guys..and that I am treating him like a criminal and its not fair. Maybe he is doing well in his recovery..may this will be the end of it, and once he stays away from the porn site, he will not have those unnatural thoughts at all..it could be possible, and we could move on to a more healthy loving realtionship.. but until I can clear up this "little girl" issue that he keeps vehemently stating does NOT mean underage woman ( ??!#$%$#?) I cant move forward.
I'll be off line for a bit. I'll check back tomorrow or saturday..--thank you all.

Mary, I'm sorry. He is in denial, he is being manipulative and he is placating you. You may want to consider a house separation if you aren't already doing that so you can have your own space by yourself away from him. You are not being unreasonable about the polygraph, but he is obviously feeling a great deal of shame and isn't ready to face it and all that which goes with it. My H also resisted when I wanted one saying that the tests weren't always accurate. It turned out that my H had been slipping during his recovery and he wasn't ready to share that with me. When he was well into his sobriety, he was able to disclose his slips and he says now he would be willing to have a polygraph if that's what I wanted now.
If at all possible, try to disengage from him when he begins to judge and/or blame you in any way. End the conversation right there, walk away from him and return the focus back to you.
We are all here for you when you are ready to return.

Yes, Mary, it does sound like he isn't being totally forthright and honest. I know exactly what you are talking about the addict being pleasant etc but when you pose that question: anger , quiet, distant. When I went to PCS, the head Dr. said that if someone was being totally forthright and honest they would have no problem taking a lie detector. They administer them regularly at this intensive treatment facility as does Dr. Milton Magness in Houston and his success rate for no slips or relapses is very very good because he had the addict take them every 6 months for awhile until trust is built. If you google him, there is a great website with some of that information.

Mary: I am SO sorry! I know how upset you must be. I've been exactly where you are. And, I hate to hear that anyone is suffering that way. Getting to the truth, is the thing that is best for you, though the truth hurts so much! I often fear more for my new friends here that they are being actively deceived, than the hurt of the truth. Neither is a good thing. I don't like that anyone is suffering from the absence of truth, or the results of knowing it either. But, the truth allows for informed choices about their future. The truth allows them to do what is in their best interests. The truth allows them a chance to place adequate boundaries around themselves to protect them from further harm and maybe others too. The truth allows for real and valid decisions for their future. Nothing will help the past, what is already done, but knowing it...and acting in our best interests from that new base of knowledge.

Lies assure bad choices. No one can make clear, valid choices based on lies. I think that's why we look back at our lives sometimes in dismay at decisions we have made, we often forget that we based our decisions on what we knew at that time. If we had known more, or all, of the truth, the decisions would have been quite different. No one puts themselves in danger, if they know the truth. Many make decisions that put themselves in danger, because they don't know it. I know I did. And many others who did.

I don't really get so annoyed with myself any more because of past decisions that seem suspect right now. Because, "then" I didn't know...and now I do. So, please know that when I pose questions to you it is to point you in the direction of the truth. That is what I wanted. That is what I needed. So, I give what I would have liked to receive when my life and my future was at stake. And, I also believe that the truth is the way, because Christ said that the truth will set you free. I believe that in these cases, it will set you free to make good decisions regarding the remainder of your life. And, if an SA is able to become fully truthful, it will set them free of the past, and to make better decisions for the future...a new start.

I agree with both Wach and Cyn...it appears to me that he isn't being honest. He said, "and its putting faith in technology instead of faith in God and the 12 step program." It isn't faith in God, or a twelve-step program that's at issue, it's faith in him that is lost. God has nothing to do with what he did. God gives free will choice. He doesn't force man to do anything, He offers a good way of living, examples of ways that are not good, then allows us to choose our own path. And, the program isn't a problem either. You H said, "his life wil be over.. our marriage would be over.. seems abit dramatic." Maybe not to him...because he knows all of the truth about his secret behaviors. And he fears if the truth is known that you will divorce him. Likely he feels he deserves that outcome. Every SA I've ever read about fears that too. I believe the fear is valid. My H feared that too...that's why he hid what he was doing. Had he truely OKd his behaviors, he wouldn't have feared the results of it.

Your H said, "been praying about that issue of the poly but " God hasnt answered him yet." He says that you should trust God. Does "he" trust God? I'm sure that God values honesty. And God would like you to be well and content. You are suffering from the deception of another with no fault to you. Jesus said, "The truth will set you free." I believe that is true. The truth surely hurt me, but it also set me free...of many things. Your h needs to realize that is true. You can't do that for him, "he" has to become willing to accept that...and tell the truth. He fears the results of his behavior now. A person who is telling lies, does so because they are afraid of the consequences of their behavior. So, they are afraid of telling the truth. The truth will bring on the consequences for them, and set you free of doubt. So, truth is a gift to you, though a possible detriment to them..and what they wants. And, more often than not, an SA will seek their comfort over yours. I think the doubt is the worst of "all" of this. Though the truth is hurtful, hurt can wane. But, doubt, doesn't wane. Or, at least that has been my personal experience.

You said, "now denying that he ever looked at underrage porn..period." Yet your computer program shows a search "He even typed in a very frightening phrase on google search... "little girl P.......videos." Also "I am treating him like a criminal and its not fair." Fair? Is his deception fair? Is his behavior fair to you? He does as he wishes against your best interests, and "he" is concerned with fair? It would be best if he is "finally" "fair" to you. His behavior has not been fair to you at all. I think what he means is that he doesn't want to live the results of his behavior. Well, none of us do when our behavior is bad....but the consequences are often necessary to stop the behavior. Because if there are "no" consequences, where is the impetus to stop? If the behavior served our personal needs well, and there is no repercussion, then why on Earth would anyone stop? But, if the consequences are greater than the benefit of the behavior, then most "do" stop?

Your H said, "he is a pussycat compared to the other guys." So, their behavior is even worse, so his behavior is ok? Or there should be no repercussions for him because he's not that bad? That is an attempt to minimize the results of his behavior. His behavior will be greated with any repercussion that "you" decide is best for you in light of what he did, does, or might do. Is that like a car theif making a differentian between his theft of a Volkswagon compared to another's theft of a Ferrari? Either one is theft. And, the owner of the Volkswagon may well be at greater loss than the owner of the Ferrari. So, where does this logic fit? I think in justification and minimization.

You said, "Maybe he is doing well in his recovery..may this will be the end of it," Reading what he actually says to you does "not" indicate that he is doing well in his recovery. The basic structure, foundation, of an SA's thoughts, are those of selfishness...which he is displaying...justification...which he is displaying...minimization...which he is displaying. Refusal to implement things that would assist his partner to recover from the damage he has already done...which he is displaying. So, no, I do not think he is doing well at all. Until he openly admits "all" that he has been doing, and is willing to give you the gift of truth, and carry the burden of his behaviors, he is "not" doing well at all. And, until his care for you is at least equal to the care for himself, his needs, his protection, he is "not" doing well at all.

You did "nothing" to this man to warrant his behavior, nor the concurrent deception. He is observing an innocent person, an injured person, a person who has dedicated their life to the marriage, and yet he is unwilling to help you live with what "he" alone chose to do? Until then, true remorse, true apology, true acts that clearly indicate care for others, he is "not" doing well, and he will "not" do well.

Stand your ground. Contact God through your inner resources...what does He say recovery would look like? What would you do if you were in your Hs shoes? What would be best for your partner if you were? What would be clearly signs of recovery? What would you be willing to do to save your partner shame, fear, and pain? Do you see them? If not...you have answered your own questions.

Hi Mary,
I'm sorry I'm just now adding my support and empathy to your posts! I'm so sorry you are going through this, but so glad that you found us. Now what I will say is my H was required to take an initial poly in conjuction with his intensive (therapy). He will get them every six months x 3 then every year x2-3. Generally Polygraphs given to SA's are done by polygraphers that are specifically trained to deal with them (SA). In my very humble opinion, I would highly encourage you to get the polygraph. If you H is truly wanting to save your marriage, then he would be willing. The poly at this point is NOT about him, but about you. It's to help you be comfortable with even the IDEA of staying in the relationship. Unfortunately, I would say you have gotten some excellent advice and your H is still very much hiding important info about his addiction.
Your personal history, his choice of acting out behaviors, and the fact that you have a prime target (i.e. your 15 year old at home) really makes a polygraph the most likely choice to bring your trauma down and your safety up to a point where you can stay in the marriage.
I hear a lot of blame in your words "I have a history of wanting to leave a marriage". Please do not use those as a reason not to keep your eyes open on what is going on now. Big Hugs, stand up for what you need! If you need a poly, then that is all that is important. It's not about what will help him at this point. It's about you and your daughter. Do not brush this trauma under the rug. It is just too big!

Forgot to add, that my H program also uses polygraphs with all of their SA. For those that complete the program sucessfully, they have a less than 1% relapse/slip incidence.

hi anyonebutme..thank you for your help-- I will get the poly.. my h and I are getting closer, having more open communication, but I still need the poly for closure. His counselor is really really poor at his job. I went with my h to speak with his therapist. He actually DEFENDED the teen porn, said it is just over 18's pretending to be underage, and suggested my H did not have an addiction! what a moron. last night, I looked up the US penal code is for child pornography- I have to say I was SHOCKED, and I think the SAs on here have to be made aware of how dangerous this easily access porn could lead them to jail. The US code states that: any material that depicts sex acts with an individual that APPEARS to be underage is child porn, and punishable by 5 years in jail. In other words, it DOES NOT matter if the girls are actually over 18,,its the message that matters. That is scary and I am now in fear of what is on our computers here, including my spying and reseach. I wil talk to MY therapist about this tomorrow. Only the sites that state "barely legal over 18" are acceptable, because they let the viewer know clearly that the person is over 18--MOST do not do that. I also read that 20 companies in the US control all of the porn,andits a HUGE industry that does not care how they degrade and demoralized our men, our future and most of all our children. thank u-- I had to change my settings to not send notices to my email becuase too many people see the message titles- I will check in once or twice a week. Thank u to all my friends here. You have truly been more of an outlet and support than the 12 step programs and the therapy. :)

Is you H's therapist a CSAT? I think it's really really important with Sex addiction that they have a therapist truly educated in this.
Also I completely disagree with his T take on underage porn. I DO think that many of those girls are underage.

Hi- Our insurance doesnt have a CSAT in our network, so I may have to appeal-meanwhile my H is getting slightly defensive about me questioning his therapist. I do have to watch my boundries, while still helping him progress in his recoveryy (codependence) --He probably will seek out a different therapist-Not only is this T not a CSAT, he doesnt even seem to understand the 12 step concept that we know so well(AA) and his name was given to us as an addiction specialist-- no wonder it was SO easy to get an appt with him!
I just read a preview of "Dont call it LOVE" last night-had to order it.. good stuff I could relate to myself..
thx all