My H and I have recently been talking much more openly about these things. It scares the crap out of me on one level because I'm afraid that it will translate in his mind as condoning it... BUT I feel much closer to him than I have since all of this started. He's being honest with me for the first time in his "recovery". He's still telling me when he has yellow light moments (even a red light moment). In some weird way it seems to have come full circle, and now that he's been dealing with some of the core issues, it's like we are dealing with the fantasies out in the open.

It really does scare the bejesus out of me though. Him too, I think.

My H would have done anything but be honest with me. He would have denied, been defensive, and got mad at me for asking. Classic addict behavior. I don't have much "hope" of catching him now. Most of his surfing happens at work over the last few years. That is one of the main reasons I will probably never be able to trust him again. He can lie to me all he wants about being sober and I'll never know the difference. If he gets fired, I guess I'll know for sure. Otherwise, I will be in the dark. I don't know that I will be able to get past that.

I think that this is a really good way to open up a dialogue about prn with your H. The more you can get him to discuss it with you, the less shameful he will feel. My H says that that more he has talked about it, the less power it has over him over time.
I know it's upsetting and can easily trigger, but I having the knowledge that it never had anything to do with me helped me to become more objective about it. I have very little triggers over it now.
There's no way to know how he'll respond, but maybe he will open up to you. Anything that presents a platform for honest communication, even prn, is a good thing!

I did offer to do that....not at the time he was doing that...I've NEVER seen him do that. He never did that when I was present...only when I was gone. But when I did say well...let's have a look at what's so important. What this thing is that creates such havoc. He flat refused. No way. Not ever. I already knew what it was...I had seen it...but he didn't want to look at that with me present. So, never happended.

It seems there could be based on all of the responses here serial different reactions to your request just based on who your H is.

I think the best way to be prepared is to journal out a map of how you will handle each response and boundaries you will put around them, what you will and will not tolerate. For example he tells you everything and it's much more than you could ever imagine....He tells you just what he has done for the day.....He flat out lies....Or he gets defensive and tells you no way....

But here is my oppinion...According to Margaret Means much of what we learn can bring flash backs such as images and such. I remember seeing that email on the day I discovered my husband. later that image would come back to haunt me, even tainting everything I later found out about my H. For example if he told me about an episode where he had sex with someone it was that image of that woman that I always imagined. For a very long time I obsessed over comparing myself to that image. .that is why I would suggest see only what is necessary to understand what it is he is doing .... and that is only if he is not able to explain it sufficiently enough.

Lorilou

I think it's good that some of you are already doing this...being more open with discussing with each other, even though it feels scary...my wish is it would help in lessening the hold on my h too someday. I get Means caution though regarding flashbacks. I think I'm prepared for it though. I haven't actually seen it myself for many years, but I've lived with it for almost 20, so if I think back to the days when I didn't know about it being an addiction and approached it casually...I'm guessing he still views the same stuff as then... so I don't think it would be a shock or haunting to me. But then we've been through A LOT of s*** since including affair and prostitute disclosure, so I guess I need to be prepared that it could trigger those traumatic feelings surrounding those events. But then we've been on solid ground surrounding those things for quite awhile...so I think I should be okay in that area too. Sorry, just kind of thinking out loud here...

i like the idea of mapping out how I will handle different directions it could go. My biggest concern is I could ask him to open up about it and then I suddenly slide into attack tone of voice and blow it. I could see my anger as being more of a problem than me being traumatized by the images. I know i really need to pray and write through that before I can even think about trying this...but it feels very possible that I could get to that place soon where it could be a positive step...

Em - I get the impression that your therapist wants your H to open up about how it makes him feel, not necessarily discovery. He may not be ready for full discovery and I'm not sure how much discovery you are ready to hear, but if the point of the conversation is about how it makes him feel, then that may remove any possible triggers.
For me, I wanted to know what did it do for my H. I learned a lot over the last year. I learned more about his childhood and things that were never discussed. I learned when it began and why it began. I learned what his triggers were, anxiety, lonliness, depression, low self esteem, fear of failing and making mistakes, stress, being too tired. Knowing this, I was able to see the addiction in a more objective light as opposed to how it made me feel, but I could have never learned all of these things without communication.
In the beginning we started talking about this once a week so perhaps you can set up a schedule that is agreeable for both of you.

Just a thought here, but maybe it would be better not to actually LOOK at it with him. Just talk about it.

Grlly: I agree with your reply #9. The images that I saw are burned into my head forever...I'm sure. The first glimpse I had no control over. My daughter was looking for things on the computer...she's has far more computer savvy than me. And, while she was looking, she found nothing...and then decided to go back to MySpace for one more look. At that same time, in those same moments, from work, he was sending a friend request to a porn star. So, her image was quite in my face...right in front of my daughter. I have never been more shocked...humiliated...or embarrassed in my life.

This "lady" (pardon the expression) had been in the news because she was running for public office in Germany. Imagine that...a porn star for governor? DISGUSTING! Anyway...got to see her image there. A hard-core looking, well-dressed, fake-boobed..trashy older woman. The image that so attracted my H's fantasy land wishes. It took a really long time for him to admit why he sent the request. How ridiculas is that? His answer, "men's curiosity." Well, it took a good long time for me to get his definition of "men's curiosity." His greatest desire was to avoid what that meant. As if I didn't know? He just choked and got angry every time I asked what it meant. I wanted to hear it from him. Honesty. Just admit it. What the H? Like it matters now? It's too late for mincing words. What a fiasco that was! I got to see every manipulative tactic he knew...though none of them was affective at all. Seeing his tactics was good for me though. I got a good look at what I was dealing with. And I had a goal...to fully uncover his mentality. I had a keen desire to see this man up close and personal...no matter the costs.

My daughter had already seen the hard-core stuff three months earllier. He had told her of course that it must have been some kind of pop-up...that he hadn't viewed nor left such a thing on our computer screen. I was away at my mom's for two days, she had been near dying. My daughter, of course, was thrown into the shock mode, and wanting to believe him, as we all do...and at the same time knowing he was lying. Poor kid. She had lived with that stress and confusion for three months waiting for him to tell me himself. I asked her what the images were...what acts displayed...exactly. I had seen his stuff many years ago...and I knew what his "attractions" were. When she told me what she'd seen.....I KNEW he was guilty. Not even a speck of doubt. And there was no lie he could fabricate to ever refute what I knew. Thank God for that!

Anyway...that was why I started to look on the computer for his stuff. I had never looked before...had never crossed my mind that he would do that. And, of course, with a little computer searching I found the stuff...at least part of it. He came in from work and started deleting stuff carte blanche. He was in a cold sweat and outright panic. Scared beyond sensibility. He hoped that he could lie his way through it, if I didn't see it. Ha! I was so in shock and angry at the time...I didn't even think of stopping him. That would have been the best thing I could have done. Shock is such a horrible thing. It prevents doing the most rational things. Which would have been to pull them up right in front of his face...and say...let's have a good look at what you've been doing....calmly. Couldn't do it at that time due to shock. Too bad!

I did search for things though... I looked at it...because I "wanted" it to stay in my mind and keep me from falling into any sort of denial. Or debating his honesty...or accepting his lies. It certainly accomplished that! Denial and lies scared me more than anything...that I would be unable to address it...because it hurt so much. Those images were an insurance policy for me...that I wouldn't forget it, under-estimate it, or fail to address it. A very costly policy.

It did serve it's purpose for me...all of the purposes. But, that is one traumatic thing to do...and I wouldn't advise it....if one is even vaguely sure they want to stay with their mate. I wasn't sure...not at all. In fact, I was pretty sure I was going to leave anyway. So, for me, it was a brutal self-made trip into his "real" world. A non-denial insurance policy of my own making. And, a way to call him out...no lies will do.

It doesn't hurt me anymore...I knew that would wear off eventually. But it HURT bigtime at the time. And no...I wasn't nice about it at all. Had I not been in control of myself...at least physically...I was likely to hurt him. And that...is never...ever...a good choice. That...I didn't do. But, he did get to hear my un-prepared, un-edited, un-solicted, feelings about all of it. I've read that it's a good idea to prepare with a psych before such things. I'm sure that is true. But, I'm not patient...and because of who I am...a psych couldn't have helped anyway. I suspect it would for most. But not me. I'm not willing to let sleeping dogs lay. I'll take the confrontation and the bite anyday. If nothing else.I wanted him to know....I KNOW...and there is NOTHING you can do about that. So...you can quit the song and dance. And you can forget trying to lie. And you can forget any complaceny whatsoever on my part. That DID get done.

Those images...have a HUGE affect. And, whether or not they're a benefit or a detriment depends on the person. They were a benefit to me...though horribly painful. Anything he said to me after that, was filtered through what I'd seen....the FACTS...no bull allowed. Not too much he could say? No denials available for him at all. No lies would work. little explanation necessary. And absolutely no denial possible for me. But then...I wasn't seeking to save a marriage. I was looking toward saving myself. That crazy-making crap was going to stop...lies stop...nonsense stop. Irrefutable evidence. I felt like for me, the marriage was already in the trash at that point. I never once believed it would survive. So....I think I wanted very much to kill any feelings I had for him. And that was one way to do it. Not a good way maybe...but a way. And his lies...any possible lies...right out the door. I haven't regretted that decision....but then I'm one tough cookie. I've had to be to survive. I wouldn't advise it for most though.

That and I think it would be hard to stay calm and not get your fear/ anger triggered when the images are right in your face. At the very least, I would get into this slowly. Get a toe wet by discussing it first before jumping head first into the slime.

Well, there is one benefit of all this Grlly....I DO think I could remain at least calm on the surface...and contain my anger as long as I wanted to at this point. I could do that now...if I so chose...and with cool deliberation too. So, that's good. I've learned to accept my anger...and channel it to benefit me. And, if remaining cool and deliberate is a benefit...then I could do it....and would do it. I think that's true only because I faced it head on. No diversions strong enough to deter my intent. No image strong enough to stop me. No manipulation affective. No antic quite enough. No hurt big enough to intimidate me. I got really courageos! Amazing! Took a good long time! Didn't happen immediately...like you said...a toe in the water...then a foot...then the whole person. HELLO! HA!

EmTheo: I think the important thing here is what you truly believe your capacity is to approach it as a "behavioral scientist". I often imagine myself in a conversation and go over the wording, facial affects, tone of voice, breathing. I believe I have it down and then when I get into the conversation I can hear my tone (not what I imagined) I sigh inadvertantly etc... All I am saying is that I would literally practice out loud so that you are taken as totally sincere and not judgmental. And then remember after all of that and if you have the conversation and it doesn't go perfectly then you were sincere and did all that you could to communicate sincerely. If he reacts negatively, that is his stuff not yours. Do Not Beat Yourself Up if it doesn't go perfectly. You have planted a seed.

That's good advice Cyn. Sometimes the conversations, when he really opens up, we both feel raw. It's hard for me to make eye contact or say anything without hurt coming out in my voice. And to the addict, the first thing that comes to mind when they pick up on that is judgement, shame. My H is at a point where he's confronting those feelings, and I don't know if he would have gotten there without openning up honestly to me. But I find that it forces me to choose what is important to me. Absolute sobriety or absolute honesty.

When he is absolutely honest, he's not absolutely sober yet. He's still fantisizing and MBing. And that's scary.

Well, I can see how it would be great if what they do didn't hurt. But it does hurt. So does pretending that it doesn't hurt fix something? I think my choice is to remain honest. And that crap hurts. So, if he sees that it hurts...he sees well...because that is the truth. So, should I pretend it doesn't? What would that serve? So that he could feel no shame for doing hurtful things? And what does that teach? I think it's good to be honest...for me. And, if he thinks it's bad that those things hurt, then he's right...because it does. And, he can choose to stop doing it...just as he did. Or he could choose to continue...and it would hurt. What does judgment have to do with it? I think my H already made his judgement, personal, when he determined that what he was doing was wrong and should be hidden. So, should I override his own judgment..and say it's ok? I can't do that. It isn't ok. And it does hurt. And the most I can tell him is it hurts, and why it hurts. Then, he can choose to continue, or he can quit. The only judgment I can make, is what does and doesn't feel good in my life. I have to make that judgment...don't I? This is an odd thing to me.