drp: I am working to stay in my marriage at this time but I have often thought it would be easier for me to forgive him if I left him. I think it is because I have to remain in my fear of being hurt again since I am staying. My extreme fear of this type of hurt again keeps me from forgiving and also from being vulnerable to be loved. It's all self protection. I hope that will get better over time as he earns my trust.
2Song: I also struggle sometimes with sex addiction or excuse?. I too am a recovering addict: alcohol. My h never had the sex drive I did (at home at least) and I didn't go out to find sex outside of the marriage. Now and then I kept myself happy because he didn't have the drive and I resented it. Finding out he was going outside of the marriage when I was not having my needs met infuriates me even now. So is it the sex and sex is the sa's most important need as all off the literature says or is it the "high" of sneaking around and getting away with it? It wouldn't have that kind of high if they weren't married...the fix of the sneaking would be gone and it would really be a bummer I think. On this disease as the "pain" article SheenRe posted creates such emotional flooding that it overtakes the prefrontal cortex (rational understanding). I don't understand cancer fully...origin, how it manifests itself one way and then years later another but if my h had cancer I wouldn't have this driving need to "figure it out" so I can "accept it". But I do with SA. I have a need to believe it is a disease and not an excuse and I am having a hard time doing that on "blind faith" as I would with cancer. Something I need to explore. Thanks ladies...another deep internal discussion,

cynclaire: that is is about the addiction difference. I told H that if he had a different type of an addiction, it would be easier for me to cope with. ANY other addiction wouldn't hit home so hard as this addiction incorporates all the lies, deceipt, etc, and also affects our self esteem in one way or another, at various times. Some days it's easier for me to separate his addiction from him, to connect his past actions to his addiction. Other days, it's really hard.

If he were addcted to a substance, I could understand it better. That the need of the altered state that one feels from a drug or alcohol. And I would know it had nothing really to do with me, and nothing was being compared to me, The sex would be affected some, but not as withdrawn as it was with having a SA. It would be eaiser to know that he had a strong connection looking at a bottle of liquor or a case of beer, longing for it, and then indulging, not looking at other women that same way, then taking it away from me.

and, you hit it right on. The reason why I'm so hesitant and confused about forgiving is the fear of being hurt again. It was easier for me to leave someone, then forgive. But, I didn't love him anymore. This situation is much different.

I don't know how to rebuild the trust again with H, how he can prove himself trustworthy, how to forgive him. he's been in therapy for almost 4 months now. I feel we have a VERY long road ahead of us. But, I'm giving it a chance, one more chance.

and, dang, from all my typos that I didn't correct, I really need to get glasses/contacts. Tired of squinting...

Oh the ever elusive forgiveness!! I too have struggled with this. I've forgiven so many times only to be hurt again. I now realize that the other times I forgave, I did so blindly. We hadn't even begun to understand the sexual addiction he was suffering from and how to deal with it. Now, after his numerous affairs and sexual encounters, which I only knew of one until now, and after years of therapy and me working so hard for a solution to our problems, does he admit that he has a problem. Now, he is addressing his problem and I'm addressing mine. You see, it's two different problems. I am a co-dependent and he is a sex addict. I must learn how to live, not because of his addiction and not in spite of his addiction, but to just live. To have a life of my own free from the worry and the monitoring and the self loathing, "If I were only younger, or prettier, or had a better body"...........it goes on and on. Through our mutual support groups which we attend on the same night once a week, I'm learning that I must find my serenity. Without it, I'll just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

He's working very hard also. On those days when I find myself falling into the pit of despair and anger towards him and his addiction, I force myself to see that he has a disease and he's working very hard to overcome his affliction and that he really does love me. But more important than the forgiveness, we must first have compassion. Through our many talks I've come to realize that my H does not love himself. He hates his own existence. He's been mistaking sex for love and he's been numbing his pain by looking for more sex which causes him more pain and it's a vicious cycle. He's learning to stop the cycle and how to love himself. For that, I fell compassion for him and what he's been through. I'm still working on the forgiveness. But for now.............I'll show compassion.

I failed to mention that my first husband suffered from addictions to sex, food and alcohol. This is not my first time on this merry go round. What we (who are co-dependent's) must realize is that without addressing our problems and understanding why we choose the people we do. It really doesn't matter if we stay with our offending spouses or not, we will probably pick another one just like him/her. I think as far as forgiveness goes, first we must understand ourselves and forgive ourselves before we can begin to forgive our offenders.

I agree jfro, I do need to forgive myself first. But I am finding compassion difficult because my h's shame spiral doesn't allow him the type of intimate discussions that it sounds like you and your h are able to share. My h won't talk about it and the two times he has made himself vulnerable I was able to have compassion but his shame and defensiveness come off as entitlement and that I have a real problem with that because that raises my trust and fear factor of his real recovery although I believe he is "sober". I would consider myself loved if my h would be open enough about his feelings about himself but he doesn't feel safe enough I assume. Or isn't well enough to go there.

Hi Sad. Thanks for your insight. You're right on the nose on most everything you said. But this, "I do highly doubt that you could have ever walked away from your current marriage and just "washed your hands of it" Well...no...not without some tears and pain. Of course it would hurt. But, I believe that I could have done it. And I can do it if I need to.

Sometimes, like with my XH, whether or not it hurts, it is the best thing to do. I became sure that it was best...that if I stayed, he would hurt me more. And I didn't know at the time if the pain of leaving him would go away...but I knew for sure if I stayed it would never go away. I found that leaving him did make hurt go away. I do know that. I wasn't sure the pain I was suffering would go away when I left...but I left anyway. And, I was ever so glad when it did go away. It took a while. But, nothing like this.

To me, that is the ultimate in "unforgiveness." Or is it more "unwillingness" to suffer for the benefit of another....which I often think forgivenss is. At that point, I ententionally hardened my own heart to any input from the source of the pain (my XH)whatsoever. He cried and begged when I left...as he always did. But, I didn't listen. I knew that if I did, and went back he WOULD hurt me again. There was no doubt of that in my mind at that point.

So, for me, I began a process of refusing to even think of that person, nor the past with that person. I DID wash my hands of him...and everything associated with him. I had to do that in order to get free of him...with his crocodile tears...and his repetitive deceptions and abuse. I had always let my tender heart get in the way of my good sense. And, I had to stop that in order to be free of the pain. I didn't want any more of that. He was causing it...and I had to be rid of it. My life was miserable. And, I had already forgiven him many times. And he hurt me again..over and over.

Also, you said this that you remembered of me...and it IS so very true....thank you for helping me with those words...I find it hard sometimes to express what it is I feel...."didn't think he would relapse but that doesn't change what he's already done. Your issues of trust would probably be more about whether you think he is sincere in his expressions of love towards you, or whether he's just hanging on cuz there isn't much else to do. I kinda feel the same way." Right on point. And there is where the pain comes in and stays...and all the negative emotions..withdrawal...sorrow.

I KNOW that he loves me...in his way. At least, in the same way that he has for nearly thirty years. I KNOW that he doesn't want a divorce. He never did. I'm SURE of that. Had he wanted that, he could have left any time....particularly in the last two and half years when I am not as I once was.

But, I don't KNOW if he loves me romantically...like an H loves a wife...or as we love a family member? I don't know if he really "desires" me anymore....or if he hasn't for a long time...or if he ever "desired" me at all. Or if I only desired him. How stupid of me. And those feelings have stayed through all of this. For two and a half years.

The feelings of embarrassment of my physical person...a sort of shame....of feeling unattractive...and undesireable...and humiliation. I can't really find the words for absolute expression.

Though he tells me that he never felt like that. That he did and he does desire me. Somewhere inside I can't seem to believe that. I guess it is hard for me to believe that. It always was hard...and now it's even harder. Everytime I think of him drooling over that last woman on the net...sending her a friend request. Wanting...whatever exactly it was he was wanting...lusting to see her....more of her...her body...I cringe inside...and the feelings flood over.

And I have not conquered those feelings. When those feelings come I just feel whipped....defeated...hopeless. I see her in my mind...and then I look at my age today, the age of my body, and I can't say I even blame him. Who would want to look at me...at pushing sixty...if they could look at her and wish instead?

I feel really silly to even try to be desireable to him now. And I get mad at myself because I feel that way...and at him. And I know that it's wrong to feel that way...but I do. I don't like to be naked around him...it embarrasses me most of the time. And when we make love I often feel tense and shamed that I am old now...and undesireable as a woman. And, only one who really loves me could ever want to bed me now. And, that I don't want him to have to fake that...to placate me. And I want to cry...and turn away...and hide myself from his view. Ashamed...embarrassed..humiliated.

Those are the damages I speak of. The damage to feeling desireable...and loved. And, I don't know that there is an answer for that. Other than to push my feelings away...and refuse to feel...or to think about them. Disjointed. Distanced. Hurt. Silly...to try and feel as I once did.

I think age alone might well have accomplished that eventually anyway. That even though there is love between the two people, that their physical appearance, age, would end the romance and sexual expression anyway. I often feel that it was cut short by all of this....untimely...accelerated. And brought into focus and attention my age and deterioration far early in my mind. And that brings some hurt and anger.

So, I search for a way to dissolve those feelings...or accept them...or control them...or forget them. He knows I feel that way...he knows why. And he is sorry for that. And he understands the why. He says that he crushed me. And that is probably a very good choice of words.

But, he also says that though I feel that way, he doesn't. That he does desire me...and always did. But, there seems to be nothing that can be done about it....those feelings inside "me." A barrier came up inside me that prevents it. My insides got so hurt that it just destroyed any confidence I had remaining for those things. And I don't know what if anything can ever fix that now. Maybe that is just the way it is...is to be.

We love each other. I know that's true. But there is so much hurt there on a physical intimacy basis between us now. Maybe at this late time in life it is best to just hold onto good companionship...and quash those old wornout feelings of need to be wanted. I try so hard to do that. To realize that it isn't important. But it hurts...and I can't get it to stop.

@Cynclaire: Are you and your H in a program? Does he go to any SA meetings? I think it would help him to know there are others out there who suffer from the same addiction and he's not alone. The meetings have helped my H so much. Although he doesn't agree with everything the 12 step program preaches (he's agnostic) he takes great comfort in being accepted and in knowing he's not alone in this. I, on the other had, have also found great support in the S-Anon meetings. But, more importantly, going to the meetings on the same night at the same place has enabled us to devote one night a week to the healing process that is so necessary when dealing with a sexual addiction. After the meeting, we usually go out for a quick bite and then we talk about our feelings as a result of the group discussions we've had. That's not always the easy part, but not for the reason you would think. We are sworn to anonymity in our groups. So we talk about how our meetings made of feel or think and what we took away from it. It is my hope that they have those meetings where you live. If he won't go with you, then go alone. Believe me, he'll come around. My H did. He was totally against it at first and now he's totally accepting of his sobriety and in his commitment to his sobriety and to open communication with me. It hasn't been easy for me. I still want to blame and get mad, but I've been given the tools to cope with it and even to show compassion and that (compassion) has made the biggest difference in him of all.

@Cynclaire: Does your H go to any support groups? Are you in a co-dependent group? That's made the biggest difference for us. At first, My H was not responsive to even admitting that he had a problem. When I put my foot down and gave him the ultimatum that it was a support group or the end of our marriage and I went without him, that's when he snapped out of his fog and decided to seek help. It has made all the difference in the world. On the way to his first meeting he was so nervous. Afterwards he was relieved and comforted by the fact that he's not alone in this illness. We go to our meetings on the same night and at the same place one night a week. Afterwards, we go out for a quick bite to eat and discuss what we took away from our group and our relationship and what we can do to make it better. What works for us is my H has agreed to share with me when he feels tempted. But, I agreed that I wouldn't judge, I would encourage. My meetings have helped me to realize that he has an illness and to recognize that he's working very hard to overcome. When I look at it like that, it's easier for me to show compassion. Believe me, if you can show compassion, he'll start opening up. Once that exchange begins then so can the healing.

no, it doesn't matter if we stay with the "offending person" or not, we still have to do therapy for ourselves, for the damage done within.

My dad as I realized over the yrs has a problem with porn. My ex, who I state before was a SA. Forgiveness I realized came years later realizing that I don't hold his actions against him so much as I know it was from the addiction. I left him as I didn't love him anymore, then I realized I didn't hold anger towards him yrs later, and came to realize as well that I had forgiven him for all of the hurt.

But, still loving the same person who hurt me so badly, knowing about this addiction that is forever in our lives, it's harder. It's harder to forgive from all the pain we have been thru as a couple, opposed to starting over fresh in a new relationship. Living with him makes the triggers soooo much harder to deal with, whereas before when I left my last relationship, I took just the essentials....mainly just my animals, got a new apt, new (hand me downs) furniture, new clothes. It was much easier to deal with than looking within my household, or memories associated with something in the household (action, person, or item), and have something just trigger in my mind, bringing me back into a certain time period.

so, my forgiveness has to let go of the anger, learn how to "control" or cope with the triggers better, to understand that it was the DISEASE, not HIM.

Compassion...yes, I totally agree. For me though, it comes and goes if that makes sense. During those good days when I remember it's a disease, I do feel bad for him. I feel bad for all the hurt in his life that has caused him to feel this way, that he needed to go to porn to feel good about himself. I feel bad that he feels so unworthy, unloved, shamed, etc etc. Sometimes I adore him, lovingly, and I see a broken compassionate man. One who truly loves me for being me. And I feel bad for all the things I said to him. Other days, I can't comprehend if it was honestly the disease, or bad choices he made. I still don't understand how this could go on for years, our entire relationship and he not respect me enough to tell me about it. How he could look at me the next day, then to only do it again when I left for work, and so on. Over time, this addiction consumed him so much that it unknowlingly affected me and the kids. When I'd leave for work, he'd jump on the computer. I don't know for how many hours, and it really doesn't matter. But, I was the one taking care of everything in the household. Except giving the kids a bath (which I learned he wasn't in the bathrm the entire time they were bathing, he was online). And, he took out the garbage cans. I was wearing down, burnt out, and I did tell him in the winter time. He said he'd help out more, blah blah blah. But, he continued to hide the real reason from me.

Aside from me rambling, I guess there is many many components if you want to call them that go into forgiveness. Obviously for us, it's a long time away. I just want to let go of the resentment I'm holding, and I know forgiveness is the only way. So, maybe I'm doing it for a selfish reason. And in return it is a gift for him. But, then forgiveness in my eyes is "ok, you hurt me many times before, but I've forgiven you for the ultimate betrayal. I'm now opening myself up again, tearing down these walls that I've built to protect myself, making myself vulnerable to trust you again. And, that means that you can hurt me again".

So, I am afraid to forgive then.

Yes, jfro, my h goes to AA meetings and does an SA men's group therapy but rarely goes to SA meetings. I asked him why he didn't go to the SA meetings because I have the greatest fear of slips from SA. He says that his daily battle is alcohol and that he will always go to more AA meetings than SA meetings. I go to COSA and alanon. Plus we go to therapy individually and as a couple. But we really trigger something in eachother; our core woundings. We both told eachother last night that we didn't feel the other wanted to be around us or even liked us. We both had the same hurt but for different reasons. I said that this is really sick. We are both wanting to be wanted and loved. We are telling eachother this and we don't know how to get there. IT'S FREAKING FRUSTRATING and downright sad. We touch off eachothers sore spots with a look, a breath or our filter from our long past. We will talk more about this at couples counseling Friday. But we did have a good talk last night.

I've researched very much in the area. When my H asked his therapist about me inquiring into SA meetings, it turns out his therapist does SA group meetings. However, it's more of group meeting I guess, those seeing the same therapist. There aren't ANY SA meetings or COSA meetings anywhere near us. Believe me, I looked. I did join the COSA online, still have yet to participate in an online meeting though.

there just isn't anything around here, at least that isn't 6 hours away for either one of us.

2song,
Yes but those group therapies can be awesome and at least he has an accountability group. Did you try Al=Anon? It has the same principles but you just have to replace the word SA in your mind instead of alcohol and that is only in the first step. The problem in those meetings is that you don't really talk about SA openly which I really needed to do but I also learned a great deal from al=anon principles because dealing with an addict is dealing with an addict. I really do feel for those of you that don't have meetings available. I am glad that the internet has it's positive side too to help those in need find each other. Can you work online with people that might want to get a group together to work thru some workbooks or 12 step workbooks like Gentle Path to 12 steps or the sanon 12 step workbook? Especially for those of you that don't have meetings available. Maybe start a discussion and see if there is interest and a need?

Before reading other replies, I will give my thoughts, then see what others have to say. For me, forgiveness was never about my H. It more about myself and my kids. I am the type of person that when faced with a problem, I need to learn everything I can. i read book after book, and I need to talk. i called a therapist the day I found out about my H's PA. I think those two things helped me to forgive my H pretty quickly. My H and I had pretty serious discussions about our families because there were some major problems I saw with his environment. I told my therapist, when I found out about the PA, it made sense. I knew early on I did not want to let this turn me bitter and resentful.I had two kids, 18 months and 3 months when I found out. From day one, I knew that no matter what happened between my husband and I, we were BOTH parents and the best thing I could do for my kids was do everything I could to not be bitter and resentful, to allow them a good relationship with their dad. If i thought he would be damaging to them, I would do everything I could to protect them from that, but the best thing for them was to have us BOTH in their lives, whether that was together or apart. And if it meant apart, it was best if would not resent him for what he did to me.

My father was an alcoholic. He has been sober 2 1/2 years. his addiction only really ever got to a point where it was obvious when I was in college, so my mom bore the brunt of it for years. She put up with it for a long time, fell into a deep depression and the years took a toll. My dad eventually got sober, and tries hard to live that way and make it up to my mom. She has never really forgiven him though, and she has become very bitter(she has even said this herself). It was pulling not only her down, but my dad, who overcame his addiction. Last month, he actually left for several days, and my mom seemed to realize where her bitterness was taking her. I do not know the inside working of their marriage, but I do know she asked for some of the books i had read, and got a marriage counselors number. I hope she takes the steps she needs to. For me, seeing her, where she was at, I knew that was not where I wanted to go. I saw that by not forgiving, she was really only hurting herself.

Knowing all of this, I feel like I just let go of the hurt and pain as best I could, and for me, that was a huge part of my forgiveness. The hurt and pain CHANGED me, but if I held onto it, I would become a person I did not want to become. My H talks openly about his PA to me, goes to therapy every week, SLAA meeting every week, and is trying every day to become a better man. That also helped me a lot. I remember telling him once that when I found out about his PA that I felt like myself and our kids were less important to him than the porn. He started to cry and told me that when he 'needed' it the most, we did mean less. Suprisingly, rather than that hurting me, it was like the final piece I needed to really forgive him. In some of the discussion we have had about his childhood, I was just angry for the child he was, for how he was raised, for what he missed out on.

I may have forgiven my H for his actions, but i am still not completely able to trust him. He gains it back a little bit every day, but it will take a lot of time to build back what his actions tore down.

2song: You said, "I'm now opening myself up again, tearing down these walls that I've built to protect myself, making myself vulnerable to trust you again. And, that means that you can hurt me again".

So, I am afraid to forgive then."

That kind of says it all. The walls inside me are there to protect me, and to tear them down would again put me at risk for more pain. I think that I'm unwilling to ever do that again. That doesn't mean that I have to act resentful or mean. It just means that the "loving place" inside me is unavailable to him. And, from a strictly logical view...that is as it should be.

Sheenre: as we are both in a painful period right now, It's hard to imagine that we will ever find that "loving place" inside us for our spouses. But, I honestly believe that there's a tiny crack in that wall that's protecting us from letting our spouses in again. It's leaking out a little bit of love and hope. If we didn't feel just a little bit of love towards them, we wouldn't have stuck around throughout it all, waiting, and giving them another final chance...although it will take a long time.

right now, at this point, I am afraid to trust him again. I'm scared at the very thought. I'm not afraid of actually trusting him again, but the consequences that come along with him breaking it again. If he were to slip up and have a relapse now, it wouldn't affect me as much as it had. It wouldn't affect me as badly as 5 years from now. Why? Because it would just be added in to everything else I'm feeling and thinking right now. And the trust isn't there. I haven't forgiven him, and I'm still trying to understand this addiction

No matter how much researching, reading, talking I do, I have to come to terms with understanding this addiction myself.

I know the ultimate gift for him is my forgiveness. But, it has to be for myself first. That will be the beginning of moving on for me and for us.

I can honestly say that I don't know if I willl tell him that I have forgiven him, no matter how much he may need to hear it. ....for my reasons stated last week...