I have wrestled with this and still do over and over. Went to treatment for myself and this was something I searched for there. These are some things I was offered as explanations and thoughts and some I have come up with. Forgiveness is a decision first and then is a process. One has to decide that they want to work toward forgiveness. Once they have done that then it becomes a process that will take time. Many people ask their HP to help with this daily and eventually it will happen if that is a goal. Once it happens I believe one recognizes the freedom they feel then realize it is for them: to free them from the bondage of resentment, anger. I believe the hurt dissipates...hurt is a natural consequence of SA but one can become mired in the cycle of anger and resentment and stay there forever thus become bitter. I don't think you have to outright tell him you forgive him like a gift. I think and have read that as time goes on and you pray and desire forgiveness it slowly becomes reality. It is not an event and therefore shouldn't be forced. Trying to force something would create vulnerability. I have concluded to try to just make it a daily general goal....I hope someday to forgive my h, please help me today. I still hurt and I hope someday to forgive him. I got stuck in "I'm a terrible person if I can't forgive him yet I don't feel it and who am I to not forgive if God forgives him and that makes me another terrible person. Lose Lose for me" So this is where I am at with this. Not forcing myself but hoping and praying and opening my heart for it to happen. Anxious to hear other thoughts.

I don't think that it's necessary to forgive. Not for me. I think that is a choice...of sorts. What does that even really mean? That I could look at him and feel all cozy and hunky-dorey ever again. I don't believe that can ever happen. I don't believe that I will ever fully trust him again, or ever feel fully loved by him again, or ever feel desired by him again...not as I once did. What he did changed those things indefinitely. I do feel that I had to learn to accept that. That no matter how I wished it wasn't so...that it is. Nothing between us will ever be the same.

I might agree with myself to not take vengeance and wreak havoc on his head....which is basically all I think forgiveness is. I haven't done that...taken vengeance. I have spoken...ok...screamed... about the pain he brought me. I have told him exactly what I think of such a person...no matter who they are. That is just truth. I don't think that is vengeance of any kind. Maybe it is...and we should just remain silent...make our decisions and keep our thoughts to ourselves. Where the pain isn't transmuted to them....well...maybe...but what do they learn then? No consequences...nothing?

If it is so that we should remain silent and just carry the weight of the burden they caused...I fail to see what is learned...except to be a codependent...in the silence. If I hadn't told the truth of how I feel, I would have made myself a liar. Were I to tell him...ever...that all is ok and I can love him as I once did...and I feel as I once did...I would also be a liar. I didn't return his behaviors to him, and I didn't divorce him...so, that is the only forgiveness I know about. And, even if I had done either of those things, I would have gotten over him and it eventually....also a forgiveness of sorts...or a dismissal of any emotions regarding him at all. No vengeance....just dismissed. I know that too.

I don't aim to try and forgive him what he did...why would I even want to do that...to what end? I don't care to punish him either...as if I even could...to what end? I did think at first that I needed to do that...one of those two things. Everyone seems to try and push that issue....the "forgiveness" thing. All I really felt when they pushed that issue was hurt and resentful toward them too. I don't think that I feel any NEED to do so now. He already knows that what he did caused irreparable damage. He knows that there is nothing either of us can do about it. He hurt me...and there is nothing I can do about it. The hurt does damage...and that is a truth. And that is the end of that. Would some kind of forgiveness change that? The hurt? The damage? The loss of love? I don't think it could.

I think forgiveness and trust are 2 totally separate issues, and should not go hand in hand. That being said ...

I think I have been able to forgive my husband because I understand so well the ADDICT, as my family is a vesspool of addicts. I know he did not choose this. He did not choose to be exposed to pornography while he was still young enough to be playing with GI Joes. And then throughout his childhood on a regular bases. He was a PA when I met him, and the shame kept him from being able to tell me, out of fear that I would never be in a relationship with him. But I did not forgive him for him, I forgave him for my children. Regardless of all the things he has done to me, he has been a wonderful father - helpful and attentive - from day one. I do not want my feelings of hatred and bitterness to poison them to their father, when I know how important he is in their lives, and as a role model (yes, aside from his PA, he is a wonderful role model for his children).

No one in my environment pushed me to forgive him, I saw the need when my words of anger about him to the children came back to me. I saw very quickly how easily I could make them distrust or think less of their father. And that is not what I wanted on any level.

Forgiveness aside - I do not trust him, I do not love him, and we are likely headed for divorce anyway. I think starting to trust him just because I worked towards forgiveness would be foolish. He hid his addiction from me for 14 years, lies spewing out of his mouth all along.

I do believe that forgiveness makes you stronger. You don't have to tell him you have forgiven him. You are allowed to forgive, and still not trust, and still walk away. I see not forgiving as being a prisoner to the past. Whether we stay together or not, I do not want my future covered in the mire of his PA. And even if we do stay together, altho I have forgiven him, he is well aware that he has changed our relationship forever. I have heard others say it can be better than ever after all the wounds have healed, but I believe that depends on what the man is willing to do. And I don't believe my H is man enough to step up and right all his wrongs.

You hear people say don't leave a marriage angry. I did not understand that for a long time, and I know its easier said than done, but I see the wisdom in it now. With 3 children under 10, our lives are connected forever. If I hold all of his against him, we will never be able to function enough to still have family activities together if we do separate and divorce. And that is my goal. I don't want to be angry anymore. It was wearing me thin. It was consuming me. I got other stuff to do than just be mad all the time! (and OH BOY did I waste days in bed mad as hell!!)

I don't think I prayed to be able to forgive him, but I did drown myself in literature about addiction, and literature about healing from its affects. I also wrote my own serenity prayer, and would say it several times a day as I would be triggered. I still say it. And maybe, nothing heals but a combination of time and whatever YOU need ... because we all need different things to heal ... *hugs*

I will Wright something on this later but want to say:

good job sadbones, I don't care how you came by the understanding that your kids need there daddy and that they give him unconditional love and that to turn them against him is nothing more than giving your kids a life filled with hurt and pain. It will come back in a good way to you.... one day you may need him to help you find one or help one with an addiction(your child my have) these are just examples of many other things that could happen and you both need to be a team to raise them wether you stay with him or go.

There are times that i wanted to tell the father of my children off and cut him off but the affect on chilren being raised without a father is mind blowing. You girls want a good read look it up on the internet and pay close attention to daughters. I have seen woman and the resulsts of not having a father present and it is very sad. A father that is present doesn't have to be in the same house but just be present with and for the children.

i just want everyone with childeren to know that staying with ur SA for the chlderen is ok if somehow you can form a healthy family enviroment and to leave is not harmful if you can't make it work but to turn childeren against their father based on our expernice with him is WRONG and mentally damaging in the end to the family but most important to the child. It is not you that should ever determined wether he has been a good father at the end it will be up to the childern and trust me that will decided that on their own and it may just back fire in your face, they may see you as part of the reason their father wasn't around. As they become adults they gain a clear picture of what happened as a child(were they are concrened) and they will know all you see even if he did you wrong. I beg you not to play apart in what so many woman do and that is use these wonderful creatures as tools to get even. I have seen woman not take money from the father just so that they can keep them out of the kids life, I have seen them tell their children of the things that took place(adultry) that no child should every hear about ones father or mother,so the child will hate the father, it simply had nothing to do with the child. I have seen children with amazings minds go to waste because they are so damaged by the angry parent they can't funtion in the world. when both parents do this is even mre damaging and one parent has to do damage controll, even if it means protecting the anger parent in the eyes of the child.

I know that it is tough to hold this hurt inside but what should be tougher is to see a child damaged in a way that will take them years to fix. I saw a friend's 13 year old stepdaughter the other day ask her father to give up custody so that the stepfather could adobt her simply because he had lost his job and couldn't pay child support(which he is till paying his 1000 a month even though he lost his job)) or a friend deprive her daughter of things that she needed so that her dad would have nothing to do with her so she allowed him not to pay child support. THIS BEHAVOIR IS WRONG.

When I wanted to hate my ex for the things he would say to me or the way I felt he should be parenting I always asked myself one quetion....
DO I LOVE MY KIDS MORE THAN I HATE THEIR FATHER? the answer to that question even now is yes... I will never having any feeling more powerful than the love I have for the most vauled things in my life...MY CHILDREN. Because of this understanding my chid have learn to form relationships, have become great parents even when the odds were stacked against them(age) and my daughter has learned how to relate to men, by the way she learned that from her father as she grew up. I have seen my stepchildren POISONED with their mothers hatered for their father. My husband in every case is a SA and he has hurt me beyond belife but that had NOTHING to do with his children or mine. My and his children were told that we all make mistakes and that we do not throw each other aside for those mistakes without first trying to fix them and heal from them but that doesn't make him less their father what he did to me doesn't not belong to you, it is my and his to own. they were told that we were sorry that it does affect them simply because we have to deal with it and it is taking us a lot of time to try and fix if we can. they are adult children and our relationship has to come first right now. I believe that kids know no matter how small, their world is in chaos so to lie or think they don't feel this is wrong in my book(sorry).

My children have come to me as I went to my mom as an adult to ask question about my relationship with their father and some of the things I had to say about myself weren't a pretty picture but what was more important to me was that my children got the truth(at the right age) after all are we all not here and hurting because we have been lied to on so many diffrent levels with SA? I am not nor will I play a part in hurting my children or his with a lie or something that has nothing to do with them no matter what their age. I will not pretend nothing is wrong(sweep under the rug) but I will not ripe their father apart in order to get even or feel better. This doesn't make me forgive him, stay with him, leave him or help me in anyway. this is not about getting even this is about getting over the tramua that was created by him and his addiction at the end of the day and my kids or his had nothing to do with it.
Sorry I have a passion for children and feel so strongly about the effects mothers and fathers have on them when they are in someway using the kids to get even or exist the fathers out of their life.
Please this is just my opinion from all I have seen and at 48 I have seen it all from friends, my own family and others in my reading....hhugs and sadbones you are by nothing short of an amazing mother and your kids are lucky to have you there are so many children that don't have a mother like you....Hats off to you! Not matter what you decide you need to know that your kids are going to be fine simply because your head and heart match.

I agree with you both. When you have small children...they always come first...whatever is best for them. I did that too. I stayed after the first go around a long long time ago. I knew that my daughter needed protection from the abuse of alcohol and the affects and dangers of his family...and some of mine too. So, I stayed...and I did my best to give her a good childhood and a fair chance in life. I don't think that I ever really had a chance...and I wanted that for her. I don't regret it...I only regret what he did and that it ended as it has.

I treated him well as any H is I think. Maybe better than most. Maybe far too well. And he treated me well...better than most...in most ways. He wasn't all bad either. In fact, lots better than most I see around. I can't say that he was ever a good father figure. He was more of a buddy to her than a father. He was the fun one...and I the one to protect and teach. And, even though it cost me plenty in the end...I would do it again for her. Only I would try even harder to do better.

She ended up getting hurt anyway. By both of us I'm sure. Me...because it hurt me so badly..I'm just not the same person anymore. And she knows...she told me she does. I didn't take it well at all....and that isn't good.

She got hurt by him...because she had looked up to him and respected him in many ways. Unfortunately, she found him out...I didn't. I came second...or third...or fourth..in the time frame of knowing. She stumbled on it accidently...and it hurt her soooo badly. That made me more angry than his behviors did...how he disrespected me...that she saw it...and he tried to lie to her too. And her let her carry the burden of his truth for several months...refusing to tell the truth to me..or to her. He would have let her believe a lie, or wonder about it, confused forever...had she not disclosed it to me. I felt huge disrespect and contempt for him becuase of that. I suspect I always will. I tried so hard to protect her. But, I didn't manage to protect her from seeing his crap. She wasn't even living at home anymore. I thought I was home free.

But, what's done is done. And, his relationship with her is his responsibility...not mine. And what's done is done with me too. I can't fix anything. I didn't break it. I wouldn't even have a clue how that can ever be done. I just live with it myself. I don't fight with him. I don't create any waves anymore. I tried that and it didn't do any good. I don't know what it was I hoped for. The truth? And to let it find it's home down inside me. No denials...no powdering it...or reducing it...just outright acceptance....and the repercussions of that. Even though the truth would destroy my feelings, I wanted to know. So, I could adjust my feelings, and my life accordingly. I think that I hoped more than anything to hate him through and through...so that I could just go...and forget I ever met him. Big...huge...task. I sometimes wonder if that is easier than to have it scrub my hide raw all the time.

Well, that can't be helped. The ol water under the bridge thing. Nothing I could ever do to prevent it. Nothing I can do about it either. We get along ok. But, I'm not ok. I'm changed...and I hate the changes. And, I don't know how to be ok with all of it. I just hope that my feelings wear themselves out, as they have waned over time. Till I can just accept that it's done and there's nothing to be done but live it. That's what the counselor told me. There is NO cure. There is nothing to do. You just have to live it. So I do. And I hope to still that weird desire inside to have what I once believed. To quiet those thoughts for all time. Give it up...move on with other things.

I just wish it didn't have to be so weird....so strained...so disjointed and ruined. But, I've found nothing that cures it...as the psych said. I had hopes that talking would help, or something would help. I am somewhat better. I don't hate him anymore...though I did. I don't want to talk with him anymore...though I did. I don't want to keep trying to make something of nothing anymore either. I just want to go on with life...ignore that part of the relationship...and get on with the livin.

I tried so long to open it, clean it, talk about it, whatever...trying to stop the hurts and realizations inside..but I don't think it did much good at all really. I still hurt a lot. And, I don't feel like a loved and cherished person. I feel like I am a part of his life...because I've been around so long. And that he is somewhat like family to me...blood family...strong time ties. But, that the "love" I wanted, that I needed, isn't going to be there now. Not even necessarily becuase of him...or anything he does...or he doesn't do. Just because it hurt me too badly...that to open that place in me up again is just impossible now. I really thought that I wanted to. But, each time I tried, it hurt so bad to feel that vulnerable and exposed that I retreated behind the walls inside. I just don't think I have the heart or the nerve anymore...if I ever did.

ok, so sadbones: thank you. That made a lot of sense. Esp when you stated abuot forgiveness and trust needing to be separate...yes, but no...I can forgive, but not trust. Yet, I cannot trust without forgiveness when it's dealing with the same issue.

I forgave my ex over time for the mental and verbal abuse he put me through. he was also a SA, and withheld sex from me on purpose for long periods....longest being 7 months and I was only 19!! I don't love him still. Stop loving him well before I left him. That IS the way to go. You cannot leave a home still mad. For one, it shows you still care, and two..you will be bitter about the unresolved issues.

Yet, in my situation, I have to forgive in order to trust the person again, putting aside the anger. I know forgiveness lets go of the anger. I can't go on becoming a bitter lady. On the other hand, how could I possilby trust him without forgiving?

They are two totally separate "actions' or "behaviors", yet they also go side by side in certain situations.

with that being said, I have 3 small children...6, 4,3. I learned and saw firsthandedly myself that I wouldn't sacrafice my own happiness in order to keep the family togetiher...for mamma and daddy to llive under the same home. I grew up in a household where the parents said to go F each other in front of me and then some, at only 9 yrs old. My mother then took out her anger on us, the kids. Especially me. H knows I wouldn't stay together for the kids. If I stayed here, although terribly unhappy, what kind of role model would I be setting? How happy would my babies really be?

that aside, as I'm not going into it any further as everybody is entitled to their opinions...

For those who live or lived with a SA, did you never tell them you forgave them? Did you ever forgive them? I just wonder if it's something the SA needs to hear from us, the "victims" of their pain infliction.

You don't start to trust again until he consistently proves he is trust worthy!! Trust can come before OR after forgiveness. Maybe you decide to forgive him because it is liberating for you, and the best situation for your children as well, but you don't trust him not to hurt you again. OR he might prove that he is trust-worthy, through consistent behavior ... but you still might not forgive him for all he has done. Forgiveness is a gift, trust is earned. He cannot earn forgiveness as it comes from your heart, and he cannot be given trust.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not pushing you to forgive him, by any means ... I just think that you will find it brings YOU much more peace than it will bring him. It's you pulling his chains off of your chest and laying them at his feet ... in a sense, saying "here's your baggage!" Not luggage, baggage :)

Ok, maybe i love him a smidgen ...

Sad: Do I forgive him? Do I even need to? I'm not so sure what that means in this context. Let me say this....I didn't exact due punishment for crossing marriage boundaries. Though if I wanted to, I could hurt him reallllly badly. I do know how...as I know him very well. I don't do anything bad to him. I halted retribution. No eye for an eye. No divorce. Though he deserved both. That is forgiveness to me...not exacting the full costs of an action. So, in that way, I did do that already...right away....within a short period of time really.

I made that decision the first day. If I had walked out the door that day, I would have not held a grudge even then. I would have just figured that he wanted something else...and gave it to him...his freedom. I would have just let him go and do as he wished. And, I would have just gone and did as I wished. And, I would figure that he chose his path...as is his right. And that I chose mine...as is my right. And I wouldn't have sought to hurt him, even then, only to remove myself from the feelings his behavior invokes. To remove myself from a painful situation. I would have just cut his ability to hurt me anymore. Done...and over. And, sent him on his merry way. I did that with my X. I'm done. Don't want any more pain from you. Go do as you wish. I don't want to be involved. End of story. Retribution? None.

Sometimes I do ponder though how we learn things in this life. Touch a fire...get burned. Hit someone...get hit back. Run a red light...pay a penalty. Rarely does anyone ever learn anything that hasn't cost them something? If there is no cost for doing something we personally enjoy, then I think that we just continue? I think that's where the old world eye for an eye came from. Learn what the hurt you have dished to another feels like? Very affective in many ways. Maybe counter-productive too in many ways. Sometimes there is no other way. Having so many courts and prisons is a testimonial to that truth I think.

I can say this too...I do allow that we are all human, and all have a propensity to be self-serving and insensitive to the needs of others in ways. I know that by watching even a small child. They will do whatever they wish, until they learn that certain actions will not be well received. And, that I have made mistakes in my life too...that were very wrong...and wish I hadn't. So, I know that we can do things and regret them. I allow for that. I know it's true. I did...and it cost ME....and maybe others too that I'm unaware of. I am sorry for that. And I learned to listen to that internal voice (inducement of shame) and refuse to be inconsiderate and selfish. I did some really bad things...didn't hurt others much that I saw...but it DID hurt me. I knew better than to follow that path...but I did...and learned to regret it. Still do. Do I feel shame for that? Yes...and I should. That's why I don't do those things any longer.

I also allow that he was trained...by many sources...to believe that he was entitled...as a man...to do as he did. And he was taught...by many sources...that women are different...we just don't have the sex drive they do. What a crock. I can prove very easily even from a medical/biological end that that is untrue as well. Most all of that "old" stuff was written by men...biased...self-serving...egotistical men...who refused to think past their own nose if it served their needs.

The scientific and medical communities until very recently in time were nearly entirely made up of men. Women were not allowed (far too dumb)(raise babies...stay in the kitchen...shut up...provide me with sex...and I'll do what I want elsewhere too) into their ranks (more lies and discrimination). It is moving away from that somewhat now. Because...women can seek education now...and can attain employment where they can be self-sufficient.

In times past...disallowed...restraint...intentional control mechanisms. The history is there to read...plain and simple. And when that failed...they used financial and physical force to gain control and abuse. Also historical fact. Prostitutes were kind of the rebels. They made lots of money. They couldn't be controlled. And, they were allowed to operate...because it served the lusts of the men too. However, those same men would beat their wives if they even suggested an interest elsewhere. Or take their children from them. Or shame them in society. Or any other control mechanism they chose to employ. And it was allowed.....for centuries...for all times.

He was taught a whole bunch of "self-serving lies...by a bunch of "self-serving" people....mostly men...and prostitutes of society. Thank you Mr. Hefner. What a class-A jerk! This society, well actually most all of them, will take advantage of the nurturing nature (biological) in women, to serve their own selfish lusts. That has been true since humans learned to write.

So, on that score...I can forgive it....or at least make concessions for it. But, he did know better. They ALL do. And, I will NEVER appreciate, nor allow that treatment here in my home. And, I will speak out against it in society too. Someone needs to. There is liberation in education...workplaces...and services. Now...there needs to be some respect come to play...and some lies uncovered...and some voices regarding the sexual deviance of men...married men particularly as they hurt so many. And, I WILL NOT allow that attitude from him...or any man.

Trust? Yes, he "may" be able to earn that again. He may not. I'm not sure. But, the day he thinks he can disrespect me again...is the day retribution does finally come. I will not forestall it again...ever...for any reason whatsoever. Bottomline...the boundary...the end of any empathy at all. I KNOW this to be true of myself. He knows this to be true. And, that...is why he stopped...and for no other reason at all. He well enjoyed his pasttime...I know that is true too.

He is well aware that I know...he knew what he was doing...and that he didn't give a damn...and that he only gave a damn when it was going to cost him...did cost him...a whole lot. Had I remained quiet and sweet, he would have continued, even though he knew it was hurtful. In fact, he did. So, we both know that.

So, he will choose, once again, either to respect me, or disrespect me. Either of those deicsions have an affect and a cost. He'll make that decision. I will allow for him to make it...fully educated about the facts...no confusions...nor misunderstandings whatsoever. And that is the only forgiveness I know. One allowance. So that is forgiveness of a sort...a chance he doesn't even deserve.

I too know this. That he is no more tempted to lust than I am, or anyone else. It is in all humans to be that way. It is a choice we make inside. Either to ignore it, the basic animal, biological, response. Or, we choose that as more important than marriage and fidelity. He gets to choose. Just like me. And that is all. And, if he chooses to override his own conscience, his own shame, his own dignity, then he does. And, he will reap the benefits and the costs of those decisions...just like me.

But, whether or not I "forgive" him, or even "trust" him to refrain from those behaviors, may well be irrelevant now. What he "already" did created a huge amount of damage. I think of it like this....that I could make a judgement error...drive drunk for instance...though I know better. And, in doing so, I could create a wreck...an accident. And, if someone was injured...badly..badly enough that the injuries are permanent. They "might" forgive me....understand that I made a serious error in judgment. But, if that error resulted in the loss of an arm...severed...gone, then they will always feel the loss because of my decision. Even if they aren't angry...just damaged, they will always be without the arm, and they will always remember why. So, I may well be without some things, whether or not I forgive him. And whether or not he ever does it again.

I think that forgiveness or trust, either or both, is just a chance....and that is all.

sadbones: It's difficult because we are the ones directly affected by their actions. We cannot see the picture as a whole, from an outsider viewpoint...I know he has to prove himself trustworthy in order to rebuild my trust in him again. That will take a long time. However, from my past painful experiences, I realized that once I forgave, I wasn't mad anymore. I could think about the situation differently. I didn't wake up one morning and think "I forgive him today". It was a long process that I realized over time I wasn't affected the same from the hurt (painful memories lessened and such).

The main thing I'm having trouble dealing with about this addiction is the possiblitiy of a relapse or a slip. I'm learning how to separate him from the addiction, but how will a slip or relapse affect me? He knows, and I stand by it....I will suppport him if he tells me that one has occurred. BUT, if I find out that he slipped back into his old behaviors, we are divorcing. I cannot live my life in this cycle. It's not healthy

aside from that, you mentioned that forgiveness is a gift...to him? He said that if I don't tell him that I forgave him, as I feel it's making me vulnerable and he may take advantage of me (again), he will eventually realize that I do forgive him.

and sadbones, I wanted to comment earlier that you wouldn't be still around during all of this if you didn't love him just a smidgen..((hugs))

What a mess we ladies are in :)

SheenRe: Forgiveness might simply be out of the question for you. At least if you stay with him. This is your current husband's second offense, and he was aware that this is exactly what your first husband did to you. The wounds may simply be too deep. Sometimes we can only give so much of ourselves up to pain, and then our well runs dry. But only you know what you are capable of at this point. I do highly doubt that you could have ever walked away from your current marriage and just "washed your hands of it" ... we are tough women, but this crap hurts. Even when I play tough, I think its just the animal in me coming out.

As far as trust goes, I think you've said before that you feel sure your husband has learned the lesson this time. Am I right? Or confusing your story with another. I know we can't turn our backs on this addiction, but I think I remember you saying that you didn't think he would relapse but that doesn't change what he's already done. Your issues of trust would probably be more about whether you think he is sincere in his expressions of love towards you, or whether he's just hanging on cuz there isn't much else to do. I kinda feel the same way. My H would not fight me, or beg me to stay if I walked out the door this afternoon. He'd let me go. But I don't think he wants to leave, necessarily, as we would sell the house and split the profits ... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Does he really love me? Or is it just easier to stay together than go through the crap that divorce entails? My guess ... it's probably somewhere in the middle.

songbirds: I think even if you are able to find forgiveness in your heart, trusting is a very slippery road. I have given a similar boundary with my husband: slip and tell me and we can try to talk through it. Slip and hide it, and you're gone for 2 weeks with NO CONTACT. But the addiction itself should tell us not to trust! And honestly, I don't think they trust themselves. One time my H and I were taking a bath together, trying to just be alone and talk things through and he said "right now I'm riding off the adrenaline, scared to death that I will lose my family ... but I'm afraid that will wear off with time, and I can't say 100% that I am done with porn" ... He wasn't telling me to get prepared bc I was gonna have to deal with it, he was telling me he didn't trust himself. That is the nature of addiction.

I think one things that helps keep the addiction part in perspective is how prevalent it is in my family. I'm the middle of 9 kids, and only 1 does NOT have a major addiction. Including my parents! And I am not that one =) I have a brother that passed away 2 years ago to cocaine, another who is slowly drinking himself to death, and another who is slowly eating himself to death. My heart breaks each time I think about the brother I lost to cocaine ... last year of medical residency, beautiful wife and 4 adopted girls ... he went to an intervention of one of his friends, and got curious, and that was it, he was hooked. We have that addictive gene. I have food issues. I will my entire life. I've done OA. I don't attend anymore, but I have a sponsor still, my little sister!! hehehe, what a huge blessing she is.

So as I am faced each day with addictions ripping my family apart, it softens my heart towards my husbands addiction. Sometimes ;)

Ok, I have to get off here and feed these babies!! :) We are going swimming at my brother's house today and the kids are on my case to eat and leave!! :) *hugs* to you ladies!

i have been able to forgive my h for being an addict and even for hurting me, ironically it has brought me my own healing and a better way for my kids, but i forgive to free me up to be happy and not waste more time in anger and pain...it is for me, not for him at all.....i thought it would make me weak to forgive, he would think i am weak for forgiving him, but i forgive not forget and i no longer trust and that is where i am strong, to be able to walk away,, and the more i forgive and let go, the stronger i get...if i stayed and let him use me more, then i would be weak...at first i thought that was what forgiveness would mean, letting him off and staying with him...i am letting me off, but i am not staying with him...i am not with my h ... don't know if i would be as forgiving if i was trying with him...i forgive him but i don't want to be with him......i forgive him but i don't love him any more, mostly because i see he does not love me, at least not enough to change and i won't let him hurt me again...then i would not be able to forgive myself.....

drptrials: ok, are you happy where you are at? do you still have the anger outbursts as one has forgiven and let go? I understand you are one who could not bear to be with H any longer, as the pain to stay was far too greater. I understand the part where you say you forgive him, but do not want to be with him. That HAS to be separate. You CAN forgive, and not love anymore.

sadbones: one difference between you and I is that that I will change the locks afer H when he leaves for work in the early am...only for him to return to home in the afternoon, find a strange car in the driveway (babysitter( and his shit out in the driveway. He KNOWS this if he slips or relapses without telling me. I can't tolerate the what IF's. I know the addction is a part of him, yet separate from him. IT does not consume US.

H for many reasons UNKNOWN to me has become withdrawn to the internet. He has no conection whatssoever to it. His goal is at 6 months he, his therapist, and I will reassess where he's at in his recovery.

One of the very things my H told me, before the therapy was that he would fight for me. He said he was doing this to save me from waliking out the door. As he couoldn't live without me. It may have been a guilt trip, on the other hand, it showed how much he cared and wanted to change.

but, how long will that change last? If I forigive him for our ENITIRE relationship of lies and deceipt (i cry as I type), and the addiction battle wins, what do I do then? he hurt, he betrayed agianst matrial vows, and I gave my forgiveness. Then, the cycle repeats. Is it all on this "addcition"? i

I did tell him from a talk of his addciton is that how do I know this is all from an addciction and not just from "other"? I flat out told him how I had gotten bored with him over the yerars, but never acted on it. Is this aDDICTION just an excuse???

we all get bnored from time to time. Relationships go thru cycles. It's normal. But, yet, is THIS normal?