Growth - That's the key word here. Why is it that one partner has to show growth while the other gets to stay stuck in their head? Both parties have to be willing to grow and change in the new definition of marriage after recovery. If that doesn't happen how is this fair?
One partner staying stuck means the other partner has to adapt. Adaption is not growth and it is definitely not recovery.

Good point about the difference between adaptation and growth.

Cynclaire, thank you for your "rambling". The intimacy anorexia/disorder is very much at the core of this kind of addiction, and it is soooo vital for the partner to work on that area for a deeper, more lasting recovery, and for a much healthier relationship. I hear you about the connection--when my husband and I were "courting"--and actually throughout our marriage--I ended up having to shut out affection, which actually both of us craved, because it wouldn't be allowed to stop there--and if it did, there was hell to pay in terms of sulking/brooding and isolation. Now that he is learning to be able to stop, I am feeling safer to connect with affection. I am also refusing to accept a "physical" response as an answer--ex a kiss instead of an "I love you" or what have you. It's a long slog alright.

Sand:
My bf and I are coming to the end of his 90 day reboot. I too am nervous about reconnecting and being triggered or hurt if it is too soon for either one of us.

For me "normal" is that being physically intimate with someone is to offer to each other an expression of your love for each other, but it has to come from a place that is safe. Safe physically and emotionally. It is not just about desire, but about trust and vulnerablility.

I am thinking of it as a fresh start. Nothing is going to happen until wintil each of us is ready. As with any relationship you take things slow. Build off of non sexual intimacy. Then progress slowly in each new step in the physical process. Get to know each other again. Do what you are comfortable with and stop when you are have reached your intimacy max level.

I also think that communication is very important. Talk about how you are feeling. Ask how he is feeling. Discuss what he can do to make you feel more comfortable.

I feel You need to be connected emotionally otherwise why connect physically.

I think it will be like candy said, "you will just know."

Cyn: I think you do a great job of defining where you are and why. My aim was to find peace, and that's what I found. I know that I can't change my H, so I don't try. Instead, I changed myself and my expectations. I found that I couldn't keep on and on seeking what seems impossible.

I feel like I spent the better part of thirty plus years attempting to be the partner I respect. I didn't do that perfectly. No one does. Just because my H didn't do that is no reflection on me. I suppose if I considered doing the things I like to do, enjoying the things I enjoy, as surviving, then it is. But, at this point, I can't quite see what else there is. Isn't enjoying my life and having peace the goal? I know it is for me.

The difference in this for me is that I don't feel any longer like I "need" him to be anything. He can be exactly what he wants to be. What he cannot do, however, is expect me to attempt to scale some sort of miracle mile until he does something adequate that convinces me that "he" wants a very intimate relationship. If he doesn't, what good is going to do me to struggle constantly trying to create that. I did that. It obviously didn't work.

I think I read somewhere, perhaps Albert Einstein, that repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity. Well, if that's true, sounds true, then I definitely seemed quite insane in my quest for connection with someone who seemed to keep running to something else. I wasn't running. I was here. I was seeking very intimate connection. But, my H wasn't. He was seeking to keep what he liked of me. And, he was seeking anything else that suited his fancy too. He knew what I wanted. How easy that is to see. But, he didn't want to give up anything to receive those benefits. He wanted both. That is very clear to me at this point. I am no longer willing to play that game...at all.

I am here. I am willing if "he" seeks "me." If he does not, ok. I'm not stressed about it. It doesn't scare me. He's here because "he" chooses to be. I didn't ask him to stay this time...at all. And, I won't ever again. I had to instill some boundaries, not so much for him, but for me. Because, I feel like "I" was the one who kept whining about what he does. He wasn't whining about what he does. He wasn't traumatized by what he does. He wasn't hut about what he does. It was me. I was getting hurt. And, I was whining. So, I had to address me. I had to ask myself some serious questions. I had to find the answers within myself. Questions about why I'm whining. Questions about how I was feeling. Questions about what I need to do with my life. He can only be a part of my life, in any way, as much as "I" allow it. That is true of our past, though it didn't seem so at the time. It is true now. And, it will be true in the future too.

So, that's my judgment of me. I am going to do exactly what benefits me, brings me peace, brings me joy. And, that is "not" dependent on whether or not he seeks an intimate relationship with me. That is so very clear to me now. That once seemed so very "necessary" to me. It doesn't any longer. It would be great if he seeks me. It would be great if he wants me. It would be great if he loves me. But, if not, I still have a life to live. And, I'm going to live it enjoying the "other" things I enjoy. I think that I once placed far too much emphasis on the importance of my relationship with him.

Shanas: I don't feel like I'm "sacrificing" anything. We get along just fine. We aren't arguing or fighting. I don't feel traumatized by what he did this most recent episode. I wasn't greatly surprised at all. I accept that "he" has some problems with sexual intimacy and honesty. There is nothing that "I" can do about that. "He" has to want to do something about that. If he doesn't, he doesn't. If he was expecting, and I'm pretty sure he was, the same kind of pain and reaction I repeated several times, that is not what happened at all. I don't feel that way anymore, at all. I think that in order to feel like "that" I would have to be surprised, feel inadequate, or dismissed. I don't feel that way. I know that the problem isn't any inadequacy on my part. His problem is distinctly his problem. I know that I can choose to leave and seek some other avenue for intimacy anytime I feel the need to do so. But, I don't feel the need to do that. Why should I do that?

LS - I think the reason why you get along fine is that you have emotionally divorced him at this point. He is an addict and he doesn't want or feel he needs help and you have taken a stand on that. If you are okay with that then I could not stand in judgment of that. That is your life and that is how you choose to live.

Personally, if I felt that way, I would leave the marriage. I know I deserve to be happy an I'd rather be alone than be in a marriage where I know I would be miserable. I'm not talking about you right now mind you, I'm talking about me.

You want to stay in this marriage then more power to you. This is a group for spouses right? So I hope you keep working on yourself because that is what we are all here to do. Learn and grow.

One thing that I have experienced is that my growth and my h's growth aren't on the same timetable. So although one may be stuck and the other growing that can change where the reverse is true....that is recovery. So really both are growing and adapting, it is just at different times.

When I said incapable, I have been told that some people raised a certain way and have a personality disorder like NPD can't feel empathy. I am expecting something and wishing for something from someone who can't give it. I kept thinking he just wasn't willing to give it so I kept trying to control him. My counselor finally said, "What if he just isn't capable of what you want?" Wouldn't it be better for me to change my expectation and accept that he isn't capable for whatever reason? Then I need to decide if I can live without whatever it is. That's what I meant. Hope that explains it better. It really does help me to process this by sharing with y'all.

Cyn - Just for the record I had a similar conversation with my therapist yesterday. I was told basically the same thing, to change my expectations to match his capabilities as he is also limited with his narcissistic tendencies. I also have to work on my reacting to my own triggers, but going back to growth and adaptation, as spouses we grow and adapt at different stages than the addict in recovery and we all do that at different times so we will not match each other at any given time.
As I meet with my husband's therapist on occasion now, she tells me that I have to work on being patient which I know is very true for me.

I think that in a small way anyone can change for the better and even develop empathy. It is a learned behavior from childhood and everything that I have learned and read and been told tells me that empathy can be learned as an adult if it was delayed in childhood. Re-visiting family of origin issues is key to this for addicts (and us spouses too) I also understand that we can often expect ALOT from people and this is where patience and understanding comes to play. I often have to remind myself that my husband isn't going to always be compassionate to situations , naturally, he wasn't taught that as a child and is still a working progress in this area, so I have been learning to ask for what I need instead of just expecting it. That works for triggers too.
My husband as part of his therapy has been tasked to just do nice things for people, the pay it forward thing, paying for someones order in a drive through, randomly hugging one of our kids, telling me something nice, thanking me for something that seems so small.

Shanas: I'm not sure what you mean by emotionally divorced? If that means that I no longer allow his actions to dictate how I feel, then that's likely true. His moods and behaviors once disturbed me greatly. His stonewalling, or pouting, or silence, or angry outbursts affected me very negatively. I used to try and do something to calm him, so that I could be calm. Now, I just cut out the middle man, I calm myself by exiting his behavior. If he chooses to be that way, he can handle it himself. I'm pretty sure that's why he quit doing those things. He found himself standing alone in it. I wouldn't remain present with it. I let him know by what I "do" that I am not willing to interact with that.

It seems to me that if you can't be happy in a situation, then yes, I would have to leave too. But, I find that his behavior no longer has the affect of inducing unhappiness on my part. I'm doing just fine. It once did that, I became very anxiety ridden and depressed. I no longer feel that way. I've come very far in that regard. I feel like I may have been unaware that his moods and behaviors were really seriously affecting my feelings and moods. When I became very aware of the emotional and physical trauma of his behaviors, I started learned to divorce myself from that. In that way, I am certainly divorced. I don't allow myself to become embroiled in that at all. I would be very unhappy if I did, but I don't. I once did. I don't now.

I think that it has been a revelation to me in so many ways. I am far happier than I have been before. I am, I think, because I don't buy into those behaviors, whether it is sexual, emotional, or physical. He really has only a few options for interacting with me. That is true, because my boundaries won't allow for it. I had to come to grips with "my" emotions. I had to come to grips with what is most important to me. I had to decide on what terms I will interact and what terms I won't. He can do, or react, or behave in any way he chooses, and so can I. If his behavior feels off to me, I have a plethora of options. I sometimes think that's the reason I read in the past that when we change, they must change, or leave. He can't interact with me as he once did. So, I changed, and so did he. He doesn't get away with those kinds of behaviors any longer. He doesn't get away with distressing me greatly. He knows by experience now that in order to interact with me, it must be done in a calm, civilized, respectful manner. So, he does. He didn't used to do that. He was an absolute ass. well, he still can be that if he chooses to, but he'll be holding that conversation with himself. I don't remain interactive with that..at all.

I used to think that I just "had" to do something in reaction to his behaviors. I really don't "have" to do anything at all. I can acknowledge that I am aware of it. I don't ignore what he does, or says. But, I don't choose to be disturbed about, I choose to do what induces better feelings on my part. Just like if it's raining, I don rain gear. When he attempted to act like a jerk, I walked away. And, I still will should he try that. He hasn't. Good for him, he's learning, because I'm learning.

Cyn: When I was seeing a therapist, he said something similar to me. I suggested to the therapist that maybe my H needed a dose of his own medicine so that he could get the feelings involved. The therapist suggested to me that my H might not feel what I feel even then. Because? He isn't me, and he doesn't feel like me. Made sense to me. It was very enlightening. Hadn't thought of it that way. And, I suspect it's quite true, because on the SA board I read where some men want their wives to engage with other men, while they watch it. So, because I know that, it does make sense that my H might not be distressed at all. I would. But, he might not.

You shared, " Wouldn't it be better for me to change my expectation and accept that he isn't capable for whatever reason? Then I need to decide if I can live without whatever it is. That's what I meant."

That's exactly what I mean in my case. Thank you for clarifying that. I don't expect my H to feel like I feel. I don't expect him to want what I want. I accept that he may not be capable. So, I'm not distressed if he doesn't feel as I do. I found that to date he has not been capable of restoring intimacy the way I feel intimacy. So, I'm not going to insist that he does. If he can't, he can't.

So, I did, in fact, adjust my expectations. Maybe that's why I'm not distressed. I'm no longer connected to the "I have to have this" feelings. I don't "have" to have it at all. I suppose it might be true that SAs may feel like they just can't cope without their acting out behavior. I've read that. And, if that's true, then could it also be true that I needed to learn to cope with my desire for interaction with him too? Did I feel that I "had" to have such interactions with him, or someone. Or, is it only that I want that? And, if I want that, is that necessarily a good thing? I mean, what if something had happened to my H, whatever thing, and he was no longer with me, would I suddenly just dissolve into nothing, into despair, nothing happiness inducing in my life? No. I came to that conclusion. Though, it would be nice to have marriage the way I envisioned it, it wasn't that way, and it isn't that way. But, marriage isn't life, and life isn't marriage. Nor, do I expect it to be. I would like to feel very close and intimate with him...but?

Candy, you wrote "My husband as part of his therapy has been tasked to just do nice things for people, the pay it forward thing, paying for someones order in a drive through, randomly hugging one of our kids, telling me something nice, thanking me for something that seems so small.".

Really recovery in part is about paying it forward just for the sake of doing something for someone else without the underpinnings of manipulating or controlling anyone else. In other words, doing things from the heart rather than doing them from the head. It really does help building empathy and compassion.

agreed but because these guys were never taught it from childhood part of learning is by doing. I see a huge difference in this area since his therapist challenged him to do random acts of kindness, at first he found it hard to think of ways to do this. He had admitted that to me, it was all part of his recovery at first, now he does these things from his heart. SO true that is a huge part of recovery ...it can happen...I have seen it first hand.