Choose: Do you really suppose that there could ever be any justice done? I don't. In fact...I know that there can't be any. Justice would necessitate a reversal of time...and that isn't possible. So, I don't get how you think there's even a minute possibility of that. Is forgiveness just? Doubtful.

Was it just for Jesus to die?

No.

As soon as you figure out that his death satisfied Justice with Forgiveness then you will be free.

Choose: I'm already free. Why would you think I'm not?

If you were free you would be content. What are you looking for in this addiction?

Actually, I would like to go back and rephrase my post as a question.

Do you think Jesus death satisfied the justice? Or is there still something more necessary?

Choose: I think that repentence is necessary for each individual to avoid THE judgement of God. I think that all people are sinners in one way or another. And that we all come short. No one is sinless, nor blameless in God's righteous judgment. Even the rich young ruler that came to guery Christ, even though he had kept the Ten Commandments, fell short. Because Christ told him if you wish to be "perfect" sell all that you own, give it to the poor, and come follow me. The young man went away sad, because he was quite wealthy and not willing to give that up. His sin...apparent.

And, I believe that Christ offered himself as a holy living sacrifice in our stead. And that He said take up your cross and follow me. And those that love me, keep my commandments...which were "love the Lord, with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. He said, I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

So, I think that what you're attempting to convey is that "we" are not able to make final judgement regarding any person. And, if that's what you're attempting to convey, I agree. I don't think anyone can make righteous judgement about a person's soul. God is the only one who can do that. The Bible also indicates that God wrote HIs laws in man's heart so that none could come unaccountable. So, we do know right from wrong, even if we've never heard it anywhere. It is in us to know. And because it is, no one is blameless. The seed of Truth inside of us convicts us when we do wrong.

I don't think that is the kind of judgment Em was asking about. She asked about a spouse's judgment. And a spouse's judgment, an SAs judgment, nor any Judge's judgment, are judgments of the soul, but of a behavior. And, I think that we have it in us...all...of us, to know right from wrong. And that we must judge that...what is right and wrong....behavior. Else how could we ever even attempt to do what's right?

If you're implying that a spouse is making a final judgment, or a soul judgment, I'd have to disagree. I think that anyone must make judgments every day regarding what is right or wrong for them. If I'm standing on a thousand foot bridge an debate jumping off, is it judgment to calculate the risk of death by jumping? I think it would be wise to judge correctly. That is a different kind of judgment. Or would it be wise to enter into a financial contract with a proven fraud? Also a judgment call...not of the soul...but of behavior.

I think that there are many kinds of judgment. And there are great differences. And, one must judge what is good and bad for them with a certain kind of judgment. But, that we must leave final judgment of the soul to God, who is able to read the hearts and minds of men. We can't do that. And who would even want that kind of monumental decision? I know that I don't.

I think it's wise to pray for those whose sin is apparent by a specific behavior. Along with prayers for our own. And before we attempt to cast the mote out of a brother's eye, to first remove it from our own. Does that imply that once we have conquered a specific behavior, we might indicate how we did that and offer those practises as help? Out of both love and concern of where that behavior might lead? Maybe because we know by experience where it might well lead?

I perceive differences in kinds of judgment. What of Sodom? What of Lot? Lot didn't join his Earthly brothers in their behavioral sin, though he lived in their society. Judgment on his part of the behavior, but not the soul? And, because he didn't join them, God sent messengers to tell him to leave with his family, as God's righteous judgement was imminent. Lot had already judged the behavior as wrong, and refused to participate. The final judgement came from God.

So, there's judgement, and there's judgment, and which kind is it? What does is it's purpose? What does it seek? I think that judgment of the behavior is necessary. Some behaviors indicate it is wise to avoid contact with it. Would you feel safe housed with a seriel killer? Their sin obvious...and a danger to you? Though you can pray for that person's soul, and hold no malice, being in close proximity could well prove fatal...for you. So, then is judgment of the behavior necessary? I think it is.

Is judgment of the danger judgment of the soul, or safety for yourself?

That is very interesting you ask about being housed with a serial killer. I have had a sponsor who is a sex offender, a great friend who Frauded hundreds of thousands of dollars from his customers, another who tripped and shot his best friend as a teen, and these are some of my closest friends. The reason for this is that I have no stones to throw in judgement.

My question was did Jesus death fulfill judgement? From your answer I assume your answer is "no". That there is a distinction between THE Judgement God does, and some lesser judgement that we are entitled to exact on others.

How does this position play into "judge not, lest you be judged. For if you judge others, you will be judged by the same measure."

Or if you do not forgive your brother, then God will not forgive you.

This is a pretty severe standard. So why would this be so important to God?

Choose: You said, "and some lesser judgement that we are entitled to exact on others.

How does this position play into "judge not, lest you be judged. For if you judge others, you will be judged by the same measure."
Or if you do not forgive your brother, then God will not forgive you.
This is a pretty severe standard. So why would this be so important to God?

First, I'm not so sure that any judgment I make about behavior, either mine, or someone else, is exacted "on them." The commandments exacted the judgment...of God. And, He is no danger from us whatsoever. Our behavior doesn't endanger HIm. His final judgement is made from absolutes of right or wrong.

However, the lesser judgment that a human makes...about danger...is for their protection...and not for righteous judgement. So, I do see minor judgements as a necessity of living on this planet...with...or without...other humans. If I were face to face with an enraged and dangerous gorilla...it might be necessary to judge the danger and take flight?

So, how can I turn the "judged by the same measure" to me in that instance? If I were the gorilla...I think my judgment might well be...best you run...because you have no power over me?

And, with humankind...with myself personally. I wouldn't expect anyone to react well to me if I behaved in certain ways. If I lie...I expect to me mistrusted...as I don't trust a liar. If I steal, I expect folks to keep me from their valuables...as they should. Would I be surprised in either case...no...I would expect that.

In fact, I would expect them to feel much as I do about that behavior. So, the scripture is correct..."you will be judged by the same measure." I know what I would expect another to feel because of or about me...and so I'd have to accept that. And, it would be perfectly understandable...to me. So, I guess I have already judged myself first...as it should be?

You said, " Or if you do not forgive your brother, then God will not forgive you." I've read that and studied it much too. And, I do my best to do that...have been successful many times. I hope to remain successful...but if not...then I'll be righteously judged according to God's measure. However, the Bible too says that the wages of sin...is death. And, I haven't exacted any death penalities. And, I would hope that everyone would repent and be saved. Myself included. So, I agree...that we must not judge a person's soul...unto death...only God can do that.

You asked "This is a pretty severe standard. So why would this be so important to God?" I have no idea why God has any interest in mankind at all. What value could we possibly have to Him in any wayl? He finds some value...though I'm not sure why. I've read the scripture too where it indicates that "God repented that He had made man." That I can understand. He gave man freewill to make his own choices...and God was amazed at those choices? Not sure. I have no answer as to what He sees of any value, compared to His majesty.

You seem to think that if I "judge" my spouse's behavior as a danger to me, then that is a "judgment" of his soul. I don't feel that way. I think his soul is in good keeping...with God...who will righteously deal with him and judge his entire life. And whether or not I'm present...with my h...is not important. God will still be his judge. I am not my Hs higher power...God is. So, he is in good hands. And, my H isn't my higher power either...God is...and I'm in good hands.

But, unlike you...I wouldn't feel safe in residence with a violent sex offender. Though, I think they are entitled and enabled as anyone to repentence...and change...I couldn't make that judgment call. I'm not God...and I don't know if they've changed. Or if they're still a danger. And so I do feel the need to judge for my safety. Just like with the gorilla...which has no soul.

I can say this...I wish to be of no harm to anyone...and I wish for no one to be harmful to me. When certain folks were going to cast stones...to death...a sexual sinner, Christ pointed out their own sins to them...who knows what those were? And, he asked her where are your accusers? There were none. And He said I don't accuse you either...go and sin no more. Now, I "think" that when he said "go and sin no more" he meant that particular sin...because we are so sinful...who knows the sins we may well find to do? Anyway...so when the accusers laid down there rocks and walked away...was that the right thing to do? Was that "not judging?" By walking away? And not casting stones to death?

I know that I both respect and fear God...as I should. And...that I also fear some humans. Maybe not what they can do to my soul...though the scripture does say...don't fear those who can kill your body...but who can kill your soul. But, I do fear what they can do to my body...and sometimes even my soul. And, the scripture also says that not even angels dare bring railing accusation against the evil one. So, that thought does cross my mind. In that...sometimes it's far better to say nothing...and just walk away peacefully. And that's a judgment call too...for safety.