Choose you have given me lots of Aha! moments, and i have messaged you privately over time about them.
I have always found your contributions to be helpful and sometimes too intelligent for me that i often have to re-read to get it, to get a handle on it. That would be a reflection of me, not you.

My personal issue, and I'm sure its my own, i struggle with some of your posts involving religion. I admire your passion, but I'm someone who grew up without any guidance in this area, and confess (meekly) to have never read a bible.
So alot of your wise words and references can get me lost in their translation, and i feel out of the loop, so don't comment (trying not to look like a dork).
And then sometimes i can see your references to the bible, and i wonder if they are just you searching for justiciation for your actions or feelings, but just don't feel qualified to comment, with my lack of religious knowledge....so leave it up to the US contingent to help.
So if my withdrawling from discussions is hurting your feelings i apolgise.....this is more a reflection of my own issues or lack of knowledge.
Mostly certain topics get picked up more in lively debates than others, because you can relate at the same time, or are going through the same thing at the same time, so you can comment confidently on the topic.
Sometimes i have a busy life and don't have the time to put in a proper response, and forget to get back to a topic.

Please don't take a personal affront, and please don't feel down, this is clearly a rough time for you....stay strong mate.

Whatever you do....DON"T LEAVE....i for one would miss you.

I think you know most of us well enough to know we would not give up a vigorous argument if we had something to say about it. My assumption is that most of those posts had run their course and everything that needed to be said was, either by you or previous posts.

I would definitely not take it as an offense, esp. considering that many of your posts can get pretty active. You've been a constant on this board, and one that many of us spouses turn to for sound advice considering SA matters. If we thought any less, you would definitely know it. =)

Thank you both for your thought and much needed encouragement as I trudge through this little valley of mind.

Something very interseting is happening. I read your posts and were surprised that you connected with my sense of rejection. Because I do not feel rejected at all by this. Then I read my post again. And there it was clear as day I am wearing my rejection on my sleve.

I guess this skirmish is about teaching me to listen, becuase I am beginning to see my reflection in how others are reacting to me rather than believing what I feel all the time.

interesting.

Choose I am brand new to this forum (just last night). I had to write a letter to my husband about 'taking sex off the table' for a while so, well I don't know why, I just know that I can't be sexually intimate within him right now. 5 weeks since d-day and a revelation of a long sexual addition. It's all just a lot to process. I sent the letter yesterday and he needs time to process all of this. My obvious concern was/is how my withholding is going to affect him in light of his new discovery about his SA; this isn't just about me. Early this morning I read one of your posts about sex addition not being about sex, etc. and a huge light went off for me. I realize that God (we are both Christians) wants to use this season of sexual abstinence for me, but also for him. Sex has been the idol in his life, the thing he turned to meet his unmet emotional needs. This thing is a giant and I felt like yeah I can pray and stand against this thing for his sake. For our sake too of course, but it ticks me that he's been under the weight of this thing for so many years. Anyway, I wrote to say that I don't know about all of those other posts, but I really got a lot of insight from what you have written. I am just learning and need all the help I can get. Thanks

Honestly Choose, and i'll agree with Trina a bit here and use some of my own rhetoric, offensive it may be, but i can't stand bible thumpers personally. If deep religion is your thing then by all means, so be it. However, it's pretty confusing at times to find out what your point is in a conversation because you're throwing around scripture like a teenager at a tp party.

Also, maybe for whatever reason, you feel you need to se a response to whatever it is you replied when just maybe you simply had the final word or thought ?

Hurting, Welcome. Though I am in the tall weeds right now, I want to encourage you in your fight for freedom, and encourage you to trust the strength, hope, and healing that the people here can share with you. I hope you feel safe enough to really share your heart, and connect with both SOs and SAs who share your pain and their own versions of your stories.

I also encourage you to encourage your husband to come here too. It is a very powerful thing to see couples like Sober and LoriLou share their views onthe same subjects as they work through them. I hope my beautiful wife will find that place someday.

Ok so about your letter. There are lots of reasons we try to interpret the bible to fit our needs. But you and I know that Faith is believing the bible is true insipte of our circomstances, like this insidious addiction, our feelings, like being betrayed or rejected by our spouses, or culture which says too may things wrong about this whole sexuality thing.

So, what the bible says is not to withhold due benevolence from your partner except for a time of prayer and fasting, and then only for a certain time and only by mutual agreement. Before you react, let me say that now is probably a good time for you both to go to the Cross in prayer and fasting for healing in this addiction and abstain TOGETHER from sex. And I agree with you that when sex is an idol. And I know that oh so well, that all the sex our wives can give us does not satisfy that beast.

But at the same time, you must consider that the divinely created connection that sexuality in one flesh has the potential to help in the process of healing and seperating sexualy in the wrong way can cause a correlary amount of damage.

Let me explain with two stories. My "Barnabus" (peer) in this fight had a long term affiar and several sexual encourters during his marriage. I on the other hand exclusively acted out with anonymous oral sex with men. I knew it was progressing when I found myself facing the beginnings of an emotional connection with another woman. This shocked me into recovery. The years of acting out the other way did not.

There are other factors in this like trust, communication, and emotional maturity, but in these stories i am focusing on abstinance.

In comparing our stories, my wife, in part becuase of her own positive self esteem, part because I did not breach most sexual behaviors with my acting out like intercourse, she has been my partner sexually during all of my recovery. Except for a couple of weeks immidately after my disclosure.

My partners wife on the other hand was not available sexually for about a year. As I watched the dynamics of this, I realized that I had a much easier time facing the basic stuff becuase I had "methadone" in the form of my wife. He took months longer than I with each epyphany. He had to work much harder at every step, every disclosure.

So many months went by eaking our salvation out in this. Then when I hit the wall and began to (and contiune to struggle with my sobriety) was when I began to run into my wife's woundedness in ways other than sex that made her unavailable for intimacy, NOT SEX, but intimacy.

Her fears, her walls. And this new level of disconnected lonliness plus other career stresses, hit me in a way I was not equipped to deal with. So back to the addiction I went.

In the thread, "SA issue or everyones Issue", Cali replied, "We SOs know it is impossible to satisfy our SAs sexually."

This is very true, noone but God can satisfy our addicts. But amaizingly when I read this line almost a year ago. I read it like this;

"We SOs know how important it is to satisfy our SAs sexually."

This at the time was I think an interpretation that both Cali and my wife had made a committment to be available to their husbands and reconsumate their covenant marriages by visiting the marriage bed often.

No matter how much arguement I get on this point. I am telling you my wife's affirmations sexually during this time was extremely helpful. And the reason was not about the orgasm. It was about the message, "I love you, where you are, inspite of your sin, and because I respect your RIGHT male sexuality, I am going to be here in this way for you to meet that need."

it is a great and mysterious thing that we can be so screwed up sexually and at the same time being sexual with our wives, is holy, correct, pure and healing.

The sexuality in the marriage bed have nothing to do with my addiction!!! They are two different things entirely. One is in the presence of God the other seperates me from God. There are times when my sin and her sin impacts this holy place, and what I am hearing you ask is will abstinance do this. Is it sin. The answer depends on two factors, mutuality, and limited time. Just like the scripture says.

I can not go to the Cross by myself. If my wife is not with me, then it is not complete. It is not whole because we are one. My sin and my wife's sin disconnects us from each other and from God.

"I had to write a letter to my husband about 'taking sex off the table' for a while so, well I don't know why, I just know that I can't be sexually intimate within him right now. 5 weeks since d-day and a revelation of a long sexual addition. It's all just a lot to process"

That is a very good I statement. You taking responsiblity for what you need. And this is very good. And your husband should support you in your need to go triage your wounds and stop the bleeding by respecting your need to abstain by agreeing to it because it is what you need.

"I realize that God (we are both Christians) wants to use this season of sexual abstinence for me, but also for him. Sex has been the idol in his life, the thing he turned to meet his unmet emotional needs."

This can only be true if it lines up with the bible. You I and everyone easily hear our own flesh, fear and wounds tell us that God is speaking to us.

I suggest that if he agree that a time of abstinance is what God is saying to him, too, even if he is deathly afraid of the idea, then it is from god. If he is not in agreement, or at least is not prayerfully considering it as God speaking to him through you, then it is you not God speaking to you on this. If the bible is true, then It must be agreed mutually and a time limit set.

My therapist said I should abstain completely for a while early in recovery. I was obviously scared as hell. Since sex was my most important need, and of course I would die without it. I brought it to my wife. She said it was radical, like a cult thing. We were not in accord. This actually bothered me for a long time because I read so much about how beneficial abstinance could be. I was even mad at her for not agreeing. But because she did not agree. I did not abstain. Because the bible is true. Regardless of how I feel.

if I asked her now, she would probably pray and agree. Beceause she knows there is healing in the Holy Spirit's directing us together.

Read this next paragraph 2x before you give up in your reaction.

How will it affect your husband. If it is unilatterally your decision, he may act out during this time of abstinance because that scripture says, "because of your lack of self control". His addict will react to the rejection and lack of affirmation this unilateral decision piles onto him, Or he will fight like hell without your help to not act out. Ultimately if it is unilateral, it will make little difference in your forgiveness or his recovery.

But, If he agrees with you on this from his heart, and it may take time and several discussions for him to understand your needs, and to get brave enough to face it, then it will be a powerful time where the Holy Spirit can blow a cool clensing breese of fresh air through the temple of your two hearts and your marriaage.

My point is oneness. Not sex. If my wife said to me. I want to abstain from sex for 3 months, but I during that time, I want to spend 30 miinutes kissing and making out on the front poarch every day, I want to go on date night 2 time a week, I want to share 2 afformations every day with you, and I want us to pray every night together. I would say Hot Diggity Dog! Lets do it! The reason is because those things are far more sexual than dragging disconnected hurt, fear, and brokeness into bed.

The problem is this. Some part of your need to seperate from him is your pain, your broken sense that you are not worthy because you got betrayed. You just got told that your whole reality was wrong and everything about your life is completely out of control. This abstinance will help you get back in control again.

All those feelings are extremely real and true, and accurate. But the answer is not to seperate from the other part of you. You are one. And weather you feel it or not does not change that it is not within your control. Even if you jump and divorce him, that will not change the fact that you are one with him.

To help undrestand that it is not about he sex, but that the disconnection of abstinace can be dangerous, What will you do instead of sex to crank UP your current level of connection MORE with him. Will you study sexual addiction and discuss it objectively with him. Will you greet him at the door with a 5-year old daughters enthusiasm that he is home? Will you commit to using words to affirm his goodness as a husband in the ways he does succeed every day. Will you touch him in public more? Will you kiss him more? Will you flirt with him more? Will you pray more for and with him? Will you commit to therapy with him or by yourself more?

How will you follow through with your vow to hold him in sickness while you are seperated sexually from him?

I just ask these things, because any of those things I listed, can easily fill my unmet emotinal needs just enough to strenghen my resolve to continue crawling my bloody wounded broken body closer to the Cross.

Once again I am telling you SOs that you ARE our helpmeets, and if your not helping, we get our asses kicked. This is not an excuse not to fight with every breath to get and stay sexually pure to glorify God, but it is easier to loose alone than with our foxhole partner covering our backs.

So, brass tacks; Convince him (compassionately and respectfully with gentle tone) to agree to the abstinance, if you can not convince him reconsider it. Unless he is abusing you sexually, being availalbe to him in conflict with your feelings is proper and not going to hurt you. Your obedience will be blessed. He will have to deal with his sin of not living with you in an undersanding way. Buy am I going to get if for that one!

And set a specific amount of time. Re-negotiate later if necessary, but do the abstinance together so that God is in charge of it, not you, or your husband or especially the enimy.

Good luck. This addiction is probably the meanest toughtest most gruling battle we could endure, except for maybe the killing fields of Cambodia or Oushwitz, but those who have been forgiven much love much. Imagine how beautiful your husband will be when he gets to the other end of this and can humbly lift other men up to purity and actually heal this through Gods strength working in his weakness. That is where you are going. Don't take the bate your current circomstances are offering.

sorry Long haul, You wrote about hating bible thumpers while I was writing my bible thumping thingie.

And thank you, I was just not giving myself permission that it could be simply that I did have the last word or thought?

"but i can't stand bible thumpers personally." Why is that. As a bible thumper I am not at all offended. I am however, very concerned that the church seems to really do things poorly in alot of ways, so I am really curious why you feel that way?

Trina, is not animous, she is respectfully sharing our differences in belief. I even sense a form of resepect and openness to consider the Bible is true sometime in the future. I hope the insites I get from my beliefs are helpful enough and maybe help others believe.

I also hope that those "sometimes" that I use the bible to justify my bad behaviors, are few and far between and that hypocracy does not hurt anyone here. I also hope that when these seeming justifications are actually biblical truths that God will use my words to help heal others.

No matter how much arguement I get on this point. I am telling you my wife's affirmations sexually during this time was extremely helpful. And the reason was not about the orgasm. It was about the message, "I love you, where you are, inspite of your sin, and because I respect your RIGHT male sexuality, I am going to be here in this way for you to meet that need."


I reread that and wanted to clearify. I do not mean, respecting my right TO MALE SEXUALITY.

I mean respecting My god given design as a male who is hardwired with an appitite for sex, intended to drive me to pursue my wife. RIGHT, PROPER male sexuality.

Choose
Thank you so much for your reply. You have said a lot and I will probably respond in more than one reply because you said a lot and it has also stirred too many questions to address in one reply. I will take to heart the things you said about abstinence being for a time, and mutually agreed upon. The fact is that my husband and I have always been very sexual with each other and neither one of us (especially him) will live a long-term abstinent life. If it came down to me being unable or unwilling to be sexual with him long-term he would push for divorce. I have never been and will not be the woman who withholds sex as punishment. Not that I want to, but he would never live in a sexless marriage.
After the initial shock of the letter he actually was very understanding to what my needs are. He agreed, but did he really agree, that I need to explore with him more. Does he see it as mutually beneficial? I dont know. The fact is that both of us want our marriage to improve and our intimacy on all levels to improve as well. And since our argreement I have already begun to think of ways to express intimacy on other levels which I had not done in the past and I hope he is doing the same. I want to be part of the solution for him and I believe he wants to be part of the solution for me as well.
On one level I get how SA is not about sex but on another level I dont get it. I believe that he has for years used me sexually to meet the need that has nothing to do with love, intimacy and affection toward me because having sex with your wife is the acceptable justifiable form of release for his other unmet needs. How is it different? If he is unable to deal with stress, rejection or whatever else has driven him to act out and my being there is an acceptable fix, how is that different? He has told me when we are together he doesnt use porn. Now how much he masterbates during our living together years, I dont know. I know that in the past if our circumstances ever prevented us sexually (work schedules, etc), or if I rejected his sexual advances whether justifiable or not he would get angry (at me) and masterbate. His sexual needs have never been totally satisfied. If we had sex 7 days a week, hed want 8, and so on. No amount was ever enough. Satisfying yes, for the moment, but never really deeply satisfying dont know much but doesnt the SA and the acting how inhibit true intimacy with someone else. Isnt that part of whats its about the isolation and inability to connect intimately with someone else. Lets face it. Men can have sex without being emotionally connected, right, not that I am saying that is the preferred way. Thats how I feel its been with us for years. I have been emotionally shutout and neglected-it definitely affects sexually intimacy for me. . I dont get it? And how can that have nothing to do with sex? Please enlighten if you can I really want to know.

Choose: What does this mean, "and because I respect your RIGHT male sexuality"? I fail to understand, can you explain?

I just got the book "The power of the praying husband." By Stormie Omartian.

Chapter 11 - Which unfortinately as you will soon see, I flipped to and read first, starts like this;

Be honest, now. Did you skip right to this chapter without reading the previous ten? (Doh!? caught red handed!) If you did, don't feel bad about it. Its quite undersandable and totally natural. Sex is not only a man's strognest drives, but also one of his greatest needs. ( You may already know this.) In my book The power of a praying wife, I put the things dearest to a man's heart at the beginning. "His Sexuality" is the forth chapter. (I didn't make it the first chapter because it is, after all, a christian book.)

This paragraph is very respectful towards men's sexuality. The problem we face in this addiction is that when I blow sex out of the water by actually being disrespectful to my own body with all those dispicable things I do, I basically disable my wife's ability to respect any aspect of that MOST IMPORTANT drive and need as a man.

At that point, from her own feelings betrayal and anger, even the slightest indication that I have any appitite for sex at all is a vile grotesque indication that I am a perverted deviant.

My addict IS deviant and perverted. But that is not ME. As a man, my appitite for sex is not at all deviant, It is God given, healthy and creates the energy and initiative to stay connected with my wife, and likely also the very part of me that creates the drive to go out into the world and concour it as well.

I think most of my rants on DS about how women who withhold sex unilatterally is a problem biblically are responded to as if I am speaking from a place of entitlement.

I own the part that comes from my failures and personal struggles with entitlement. But I do not own that God is clear on this point in the bible.

I also understand, as a man, it is almost impossible to say that a woman should meet her husbands sexual needs with out sounding self-serving and slefish. Especially as an addict who knows she can not meet my addicted needs. And I really don't want her to because they disturb me, and they really disturb her!

So again I clarify. I do NOT mean my right TO sexuality. I mean respect for the fact that sex is very important to men. And it is by design.

When I discussed fasting for 40 days with my mentor. He said, "I would rather go 40 days without food, than 40 days without sex." He is not an addict, he and his wife spend their entire ministry on teaching marriage. And HE would rather go without food than sex. My wife might not even notice if 40 days without sex went by, except for the fact that she is very respectful of my sexuality as a man. She always has been. Sometime recently I asked her how long we had ever gone without sex. She confidently said "No more than a month, I made sure." Now as one realization that came from my recovery, she has graciously changed the tempo, not the attitude. This is respect for male sexuality.

It is so painful to us when our wives, because it is just not that important to them, just go about their business for days, weeks or months just not even thinking about sex. It hurts that you don't even notice our MOST IMPORTANT DESIRE and NEED.

What is your most important desire and need as a woman?

"I Love you" ?,
"You look beautiful" ?
"The bills are paid" ?
or maybe its "I understand what your saying" ?

How do you feel when we blow those things off for days weeks or months? You may think you have the high-ground on emotions, but it HURTS as much as neglecting these things hurt you.

I undersand the value of a time of abstinance. But I think it has to be mutually agreed and limited to a specific time to be useful. And the resaons of retreating after learning of a betrayal, and respecting that need to retreat out of love IS mutually agreeing, but it needs to also have an exit strategy as well. " I will be available in a month, or I will ask you for more time, if I am not." something like that.

This is all me talking, not my addict! He says something that sounds similar.

That is what I mean by repecting RIGHT male sexuality.

Can I once and for all jus take the word RIGHT back? Please, can I?

"and because I respect your male sexuality"?

Hi Choose,
While there is no SA on earth I totally agree with, I do find your posts insightful and helpful. (There are others which are not.) If you are having the last word on things, maybe it is just because many are your own threads. I think that is normal on your own thread to have the last word.

My question would just be, why are you looking on these old threads and making a tally of whether you are 'right' or 'wrong' or 'accepted' or 'rejected' by the various, anonymous, and shifting crowd of folks up on this board? Who are we to judge you? (um, and where should you be looking instead, for judgement?)

SA is complex, dealing with it is a new science. The most important issue really seems to be, whether you are dealing with it at all, and this goes for SAs and SOs alike. Your/our answers, approach, thoughts and feelings about it are going to be changing as we merrily roll along. If you/we are wrong about something today, you'll/we'll learn better tomorrow. No need to be right about it all today, this minute. As long as you are still addressing the issue, as long as you are seeking the right way, as long as you are willing to admit any mistakes you may still be making, and as long as you draw breath you will be making them - you're ok.
It's ok to be wrong, it's ok to make mistakes, but if you stop growing and changing, you die. You don't need approval from here. Take a breath and keep on going.

Choose - As a SO, your responses invoked many emotions in me, and I am really going to need to sit down and try to understand why they did that.

I did have some questions too. In reading your response here, and other places, I am understanding that your wife was available to you sexually throughout, and that you are encouraging other SO's to do the same. I will admit, as a SO, at first I was very upset by that statement. And I stopped to think why, and I have to admit, that I do not blame myself, but I keep wondering how much the porn my H was viewing affected our sex life, and that hurts, that he could have brought that into our bed. But I know that is MY hurt and I need to work through it. While focusing just on that, I think I forgot that it is normal for men to have a need for sex. My need to hear 'I love you' and feel that love in ways other than sex is very strong right now, and I think that comes from my hurt and fear. My question is, how do I determine what is a normal sexual relationship, when #1 it turns out I NEVER had that with my H, since he came into our relationship with this addiction a part of him for years. and #2 if HE is still trying to figure out what that is for him. He masturbated every day for almost HALF his life. He has told me, when he was not in a relationship, it would be more often than that. He is trying to figure out what is a normal sex drive for him, since his has been so warped by his porn use and masturbation. So if he is still trying to figure it out for himself, and I am trying to figure it out for myself(I am pretty much the exact opposite, I had very little sexual experience before H, and even with him, I could go much longer than he. I am beginning to realize that is partially in response to the lack of emotional connection I often felt during sex, and my fear of being truly vulnerable to him. I am just not sure I am capable of having sex with him, with all this murkiness still present. Do you feel you and/or your wife just separated all of that while having sex? Sorry if I am asking personal questions, I am just really struggling with where I am at in all of this, especially after reading your responses in here...

That being said, I LOVE that you added that it does not need to be sex, it could be intimacy on another level. While we have not had sex, I feel like we have been intimate. I think since H had equated sex with the orgasm and the lack of connection that comes with porn, much of the emotional connection was often not present. We have been focusing on that, and while I can only speak for myself, I think it has helped.

I read my response again and I wanted to clarify that I do not believe I should give my H sex just because it will help him, if I am not ready for it, but I also do not want to be withholding it as a 'punishment.; I do not believe I am, but I am trying to figure out how you to figure out what could be 'normal' in the midst of all of this,

"and my fear of being truly vulnerable to him"

I wish I had more time to reply, but I will tell you that my wife has not ever withheld from me. I expected her to when I disclosed because so many SOs go for months or even years before they are willing to be sexual again after that. But she didn't. That single "act of service" on her part has been instrumental in my retraining myself to love and respect her in the face of my addiciton. If she had not been available to me, then I would probably have done far worse than I have. The fact that she is still very much into the "as soon as you get better everything will be OK denial" is very difficult for me, but the stronger I grow, the less that will be an option for her. So my calling is to do the next right thing anyway.

That is your calling too. I can not speak to what you as an SO facing this situation needs. I think if you need time apart sexually that is appropriate, but you really need to be open with him about it because it is obviously dangerous or Paul would not have been woried about it. I would say that you really need ot be working hard to take advantage of your time by dealing with boundaries and closure, and forgiveness. Becuase if you abstain (even with both of you agreeing) and then just relax because things feel better and don't keep working hard at your marriage, it will be a waste.

When I first started recovery, I abstained from oral sex for 100 days, and mastrubation until i slipped 7 months later. This taught me that my feelings that my addict tells me are lies. I do not NEED it to live. There are more important needs. So it will do him good too. The problem is this. You imposing it for his benefit is you controling his recovery and that will backfilre. So you need to be responsible for your side of the street, and do it for your reasons, and try to sell his agreement by helping him understand the benfits.

All the time I have for now. Hope this helps.