Choose,

In my experience, criticism of any sort used to send me through the roof. It used to get me defensive because I used to take it as a personal affront to my own self.

Flash forward several years of therapy and/or personal/spiritual development and I realized and sorry to sound esoteric here but I discovered that reaction to criticism was an ego ridden behavior.

That is to say, let's say I did something you did not like, and you make me aware of it and make rather scathing comments about it (criticize) whereas before I would defend myself (coming from ego based thought) I now ask you what the real issue is, because I have also discovered that when someone engages in criticism it's almost never about the issue at hand, there is more to it neath the surface.

So by getting to the real issue, (the "it's not always about the toilet seat left up" syndrome) then real and life affirming dialogue can begin.

And in my journey through porn addiction I cannot recall any instance in which I defended it because there was no way to defend a behavior I knew was not of benefit to me or anyone around me.

I do however recall saying to my best friend once, "Yes, I realize this is not helpful to me or anyone but I cannot seem to stop it." To which she said knowing me well, "You'll stop when you get sick of it and its implications." True enough, it happened exactly that way.

In my experience of wrong doings and feeling slighted what often helped the issue from escalating was admission of wrong doing and acknowledgement of said offense to the best of one's ability.

Being validated for one's feelings is important and saying that you can see how whatever was can be hurtful is also of utmost importance. Recognizing that a certain behavior has caused pain in your S.O. can be a catalyst to a healing dialogue and go from there.

Justifying, excusing and say defending your position on something you know deep down is not helping you or your S.O. is not only detrimental to your personal development but also your S.O.

And as my mother once said, "If you must you fight bring up only what's really bothering you and whatever you do bringing up past issues only increases your chances to lose your focus and kills the opportunity to resolution."

And lastly while in the throes of the verbal volley keep this question in mind: Would I rather be happy or right? This is important because if you choose happy, chances are good but if you choose right, you are coming from an ego perspective and nothing will be resolved whatsoever.

Just a thought,
Wolf



Just a thought,
Wolf

Wolf made very valid points. Thank you for your input Wolf...very thoughtful...and helpful to me too. Your mother was very wise. I often have trouble conveying feelings into thoughts and then into understandable words. Sorry..

Choose: You asked, "From an SOs perspective, what would honor your anger and pain while "protecting' "myself" from a flood of criticism resonating "from" that pain?" Here's this SOs opinion. I think your question...also proposes the answer....I added the italics...for the words of direct importantance from my personal SO view.

When my H quit attempting to "protect himself" and "defend" his behavior (and instead determined to protect me "from" that behavior), I felt no need to continue attempts to point out to him what " I feel in regard to his behavior". Until that point, until he quit defending it, and himself, he wasn't seeing that there is no defense viable for inflicting the pain of infidelity on a partner.

There is none. So, why would he attempt to protect himself, when there is no protection available? Continuing to defend himself just told me that he didn't get...there is no defense..period. And until he did...I'd attempt to make that point...as long...as necessary. That there is no justification...and there is no defense..possible. Just wrong...and that's all. And, perhaps a question,...are you going to continue to defend that...or me?

When he took a different position, of understanding what his behavior "said" to "me", and how that communication felt inside me, whether or not it was true for "him" is when I no longer felt the need to convey "my" meaning of that behavior or "my" feeling regarding it. And when he admitted there was no defense for his behavior, and that my feelings about that behavior were more important to him than his need to do it, then there was no need for me to explain my feelings.

When he switched sides...from the need to defend his behavior and protect his feelings about that behavior, and instead absorbed the "results" of that behavior on my feelings, and on the relationshp, then I didn't feel the need to explain the hurt anymore. He listened...to what I felt...and offered validation for the fact that anyone would feel that way. That I had every reason to be hurt...and every reason to be angry. Who wouldn't be?

That if he were me..HE would likely feel that way. And that what he did hurt me very badly, though that wasn't his intent. His intent was to satisfy himself...and that is all. That when he did those things he wasn't thinking of any impact on anyone else. He was solely engrossed in what felt good to him. And that he broke his vows...and there was no valid reason to ever do that. And that he was "wrong" period. No defense avaialble...no reason viable...ever. And that he would defend my feelings...and not that.

I knew he got it. So, whether or not he felt that way about the behavior, or whether or not he didn't mean for it to feel that way to me, he could understand and articulate what it meant to me. And, because it meant that to "me" that the behavior was unconscionable...because of the results to someone else other than himself.

Can you protect yourself from responsibilty for hurting your partner? Can you in anyway at all offer a sound reasoning as to why it was ok...or is ok? If not...why defend?

WOW! this is very thought provoking. My H feels the need to defend himself, or get angry when I am expressing my hurt.
A few days ago things came to a head, when he had a revelation that he had "blocked" some important stuff. I believe his anger was in the fact that he was not being truthful and his conscious was eating him alive.
I think the ego driven defense, and pride are a huge part of his personality. This is so claer to me, now, and makes so much sense.
From an SO perspective, we had our world turned upside down, if we sound critical, it is from our hurt and our fear. The SA, usually our spouse, but someone we love, trust and depend upon has been the deliverer of pain, a pain so deep we think we may die form it.
As Sheen says, and I agree100%, there is no defense, there is no justification. And there really is nothing you should try to say to defend yourself. Just let the SO speak, without saying anything, and try to view it from our shoes. When my H defends himself, he isn't hearing me, and things never go from bad to better, but from bad to so much worse.
Although, I must say, too, that we SO's have a responsibility to move past our hurt, and be your helpmate for your recovery...I WE ARE ALLOWED. But again, sometimes pride and ego get in the dang way.

Our therapist told my H a year ago that the most important thing he could do was to just hold me, and let me cry, all night long if that's what it takes.
Has it happened since then? Occassionally. Like you, it is very hard for him to see me upset. Even if it has nothing to do with him, he tends to personalize everything and equate it to him being a failure.
I was wondering what you meant by this comment: "I very much know I am a sex addict, It is not productive for that to be pointed out when I express a need, or feeling." Could you be more specific?

I only wish my wife would say, I feel angry, hurt or whatever she felt. That is not criticism. Criticism as defined at first is the tendancy to point out faults or shortcomings. Do you all think I am not aware of my faults or shortcomings? Is there some therapeutic value to being calling your SA sick, pathetic, or psychotic?

Am I missing something or did all these responses defend the need to criticize? What relational value does letting someone be critical Wen you share your feelings have.

Maybe I should rephrase my question. What functional boundaries would honor an SOS anger in response to being called pathetic? And to follow that- is it appropriate to call someone pathetic because your angry? If so, does this only apply to soS or can SAs call their spouses pathetic when they are angry too?

There isn't and you have the right to ask her to stop.

Choose,

I think the more appropriate thing would be to remind us SOs to "take ourselves out of the equation" and remember you and your wife have a different situation... A situation that you have been literally begging your wife & partner to be a part of your recovery and your wife has only just recently agreed, with some restraint to join you in this journey of recovery, that while you have pursued a life of recovery and learning how to be a more mature and relational person the other half has not agreed until recently to consider joining you in learning how to be more relational according to what the majority of us have learned regarding boundaries, spirituality, parenting, sexuality & recovery.

So while you are trying to use some restraint by not blaming your partner for your actions (a trap which gets most addicts in trouble) it is confusing for those who have not tracked your amazing progress over the last couple of years.

I think what Choose is trying to say to the SOs (hoping I'm not making up your reality Choose) is that his partner is violating his boundaries by calling him names.... ie. pathetic or a sarcastic...." SEX ADDICT!!"
It is my understanding Choose that these violations are only necessary when at war.
Yea you & mrs. Mom are right that in the beginnings of recovery it is appropriate for the SA to accept the anger from the partner as a sort of cleansing if you will of her/his wounds, caused by the addict. But then we get into a more philosophical question I guess.....

When is enough, enough?

When does this "cleansing of the wound become an oppertunistic way for the SO to get the upper hand and then become the abuser?

At what point should the SO become satisfied that her/his pain has been drained?

Or is it fair to say the SA sold his soul to his partner....She now owns him....He is now her B-I-T-C-H!?!?

Lorilou

I can't sleep partly cuz I just found out at my best friend's wedding that he may have a problem with porn.

Regardless, it is NEVER ok to be aggressively critical to each other. Emphasis on the period. It is UNDERSTANDABLE why the spouse is angry but no type of aggressive behavior, subtle or not, is ever justified.

If your partner will not stop this behavior after you have asked her to stop then it needs to be addressed in therapy. In the interim you have a right to protect yourself even if it means placing physical distance.

This would be the functional thing to do. Sitting around taking the abuse is not only dysfunctional but self flagellation. Not an act of self love. You have already done plenty of self flagellation.

Soberone

Bill,

I see u can't sleep either :)

If she won't go to therapy then Choose has a very big problem with no easy or even satisfactory solution. In fact, every solution breeds new problems.

He still has the right to protect himself wether he walls off or leaves the relationship. He has an added burden that he needs to protect the children. Remember tha this wife is just as wounded as he is. The dysfunctional behavior will leave wounds on the next generation.

As to your last question, unless she enters the life of a recovering sex addict as you put it, there is no relationship. Besides, she signed up for "better or for worse" when she married him. She is just as responsible for the outcome of the relationship as he is.

And before I get flamed, I don't mean the addiction, I mean the ultimate outcome of the marriage and whatever relationship they have after that. If she divorces him he is still the father of her children. And if either remarries, then there is a whole new dynamic to deal with.

I will say this, if Choose continues to get healthy, he will be less and less reactive to her. She will start to feel abandoned and this will light a proverbial fire to make a decision.

I can't sleep either! I have no idea what to say except thank you so very much for your gentle compassion Lori. I am amazed that god has taken such adversity in our relationship and turned it into moments like this where he can use you to speak such love and empathy towards me. You and Sober are a good gift to me from him.

I am in so much pain what is God's megaphone telling me? Please tell me Lord!

She is going to therapy with me. For this I am grateful.

choose,

In my life I have learned that we are the product of our pain. That is, we ourselves cause our pain by the manner we tend to assimilate information. As the saying goes: "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

Meaning that we see things according to our experiences about it. Take, for instance, one day when you were three it was raining and you had a great suit, you were proud of it and then by some fluke, a car passes by and ruins it, then a conclusion rears in your mind: Rainy days suck. Then after that all rainy days will suck henceforth until you remember what was it about rainy days that started to suck for you.

In other words, most of our emotions/opinions come from a distant past and then shift to the present and appear (keyword:appear) to be real and at worst appear to apply to the present situation. Incredible but true.

Thus, God himself is not exactly trying to tell you anything, but pain is trying to tell you (like pain in your body tells you something is amiss with your body) that perhaps your thoughts are, at best, askew. Not all is well in the kingdom, as it were. So it is often advised to seek what is indeed askew in your mind/soul that has caused this imbalance and find a way to fix it.

I do this all the time now. When I get upset, I stop and try to find out what is it that upsets me and why. Then I seek ways to feel better. This is why I have been very firm in my suggestion of being present 24/7 because it minimizes painful experiences due to self-awareness and peace of mind can be achieved no matter what is going on outside of myself because I know that nothing can disturb my peace unless I allow it. Simple but not always easy.

And I have also kept in mind this: "Learn to choose your battles" by applying this question:"Will this matter to me in 5 years?" This alone greatly reduces my ego desire to engage in a verbal volley, I know will not be useful to anyone involved. So what has been happening is my pursuit of peace has led me to stop looking for trouble to prove I am worthy or whatever ego ridden noun you want to apply here.

Also I wanted to bring something else to your attention that escaped me on my last post. The definition of criticism itself: the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding. These acts come from a place of hurt and, at best, are not helpful for anyone.

So as Eleanor Roosevelt best said, "No one can insult you without your permission." That is to say, that unless you believe what judgment is being thrown at you is a fact about you, you'll want to defend yourself as a gut reaction.

People with a healthy self esteem rarely get insulted and rarely react because they know that famous maxim: An insult says more about the insulter than it does about the insulted.

While I agree that your wife took what I deem to be potshots at you out of perhaps frustration and hurt, it is a positive sign she is willing to seek help for her present mental health.

Hope this helps,
Wolf

Choose: No...I wasn't defending need to criticise...my H...only the "behavior". The "behavior"...is what hurt me...and it is what brought on all the feelings since then. And, I can speak only of "my" experience...which is past tense...and done nearly three years ago. That's a long time...though I can remember exactly what I thought...though not what I "felt" thank God for that. I hope to never have those feelings again. In fact, I don't believe it's possible for me to ever feel that way again. Thank God for that too.

I "can" say that if I were presented with the same situation now...I'm pretty sure...though one is never "sure" until it happens..that I would respond very differently. I doubt I'd have much to say at all. Because there really is nothing much for me to say is there? Not really. What could "I" possibly say? The situation evident...no need for explanation? In hindsight...really...there was nothing for me to say...or that I could say. I can't think of a single thing that I could have said that would be worthwhile.

He knew far more about all of that than me. If there was anything to be said, he'd be the one to have to say it? And, I could only choose to listen to what he had to say,or just accept that the situation needs no clarification...just acceptance....and subsequent decisions about my life.

You said, "SA sick, pathetic, or psychotic." Not good to every call anyone names...especially that kind. You asked " Is there some "therapeutic value?" No, I don't think there is. But, your wife isn't in therapy? She's just trying to say how the "behavior""feels"to "her." Not a good way to do that at all. However, I don't think...that for "me"...there's any good way to "say" what I "feel" about the behavior. I think though, at this time for me, the behavior speaks for itself....and there's nothing for me to say. And there was never anything beneficial I could have said either.

Bill's reply, number nine resonates a lot of truth. "But alas, your wife is married to a sex addict, and she is reminded of it everyday of her life." That may well say it all. And what can I say about that? Only that... I know this is true...that once I knew...everything changed from there. And, there's nothing I can do about it. And there's nothing to say about it...certainly not to him. As you said Choose, if there are shortcomings on his part, he knows those far better than I do. I don't feel any need to point it out anymore...nor should I have ever. The behavior says it all...and there is nothing valid I could input from there.

Sober said, "There isn't and you have the right to ask her to stop." And that is true. You can ask her to stop. And if she doesn't, you can tell her that you already know the behavior is bad. And, that pointing out that it is bad isn't necessary...you already know it...and that you're working on correcting the behavior. And, that if she wants to talk to you, it's best to talk about the "behavior" because from there...you can agree...it's bad. And if she can't control the pain, or at least her words, you'll have to disengage until she can.

Sigh! I am guilty. Early after disclosure, I have done this. I have called names...pathetic, loser....along with porn addict, among my favorites. I hit, punched, kicked. I am ashamed of my behavior.
My sin in God's eye's is no less than my husbands sin. I am not a little sinner, compared to him. Sin is sin, and that is falling short of God's design of how He sees things.
Choose, I will use this as a way to look at my own actions and responses to see where my reaction is really coming from.
I do know that in light of recent revelations, I am coming from a fearful approach. And I want to protect myself from further upset.
I no longer call names, and he is trying to see things in a different light. I am not attacking him everytime I speak. Sometimes I am just confused.
A while back you wrote a post about your wife that was truly beautiful. Did you ever let her see that? Maybe if you have not, perhaps you should show her, maybe it will soften her heart. it would have worked on me.
I hope that you are both able to get peace very soon.

I have been so open and vulnerable here on ds sharing most intimately , I have mixed feelings about my wife coming here and healing with us. I am afraid I have violated her privacy such that she will be deeply wounded by some of my comments and angry rants, especially early on when I was so blaming of her.

On the other side of the coin, you are all missing the blessings, character, exemplary compassion beauty and strength that My helpmeet honors me with.