Sex / Pornography Addiction Support Group
Sexual addiction, also sometimes called sexual compulsion, is a form of psychological addiction to sexual intercourse and other sexual behavior.
Charlie,
In the thread "The POWER of the addiction, you quoted Mark Laaser that 85% of the members of the church are sex addicts. I once heard Michael Reagan quote that 90% of all porn viewed in hotel rooms is done by pastors.
How does he know this? Did he collect data on the pay per view purchases, then cross reference them with the rooms that were rented by pastors. Did the hotels capture data on which of their guests were pastors, and keep track of the movies they watched, then provide this information to Michael for research purposes?
I am sorry I have to rebut this 85% statistic you quoted. How does Mark L. know this statustic? Or is his particular situation, and ministry focused on helping those in church leadership work through these problems, therefore, 85% of his patients are church leaders? Or something like that.
The population of sex addicts in the population is 3-5%. I agree that church attracts hurting people, and that more than the average population of sex addicts would be in church attendance for that reason, but 85% is not realistic.
Nor is the percception that the clergy are more likely to be those acting out and arrested in the ways you describe. I have read Laaser's stuff and taken a video course on SA from him. I think he is very good and made some very compelling and unique discoveries, like the fact that one of the core needs of all of us is to be deeply desired, and that a high perecentage of "addictive personalities" have a history of frontal lobe head trauma sometime in their lives. (like in the high 80%, including myself)
I also think he is in the ministry, and lost his career as a minister to his sex addiction, and is very capable of helping those in ministry through this experience.
But the notion that 85% of the church are sex addicts, and most of the arrests you described involve clergy is founded on personal perceptions of people who have either been hurt by the church, or the percentage of people involved in the church that have suffered and caused suffering through their sex addiction within the Body.
I think it is very easy to accuse the church of being hypocrits especially in our wealthy, superficial American society because those in the church who have not been through the "addiction fire" to be judgemental. This causes a deep amount of pain to lots of people. But this pain does not indite the church as a whole. It just exaserbates or amplifies the consequenses of the addicts behavior if done by leaders. Actually Paul discusses this in Timothy when he sais those who teach will be heald to a higher standard. I am glad that I am not a pastor of 1500 people, because without recovery, I would have hurt lots of people over the years of my acting out.
Having said this, I was sexually abused in a parochial school when I was 10, and in high school my assistant pastor had an affair which I believe spiritually exposed me to the abusive situation I got in right after high school.
So I agree with you that when those who are in positions of spiritual leadership over us are active in sexual sin, it leaves their flock open and exposed to devistating consequenses.
It is very close to the damage of being betrayed by a parent or someone else in our lives that we are supposed to rely on for safety and protection. It is devistating more than having it come from a stranger we are not relying on. So, maybe the truth is that the 3-5% of the cleargy that are sex addicts cause a disproportionate amount of damange by their acting out than say a software engineer, or an attorney.
Here is what I think. God uses the church as a safe incubator for his purposes. I think the Word was preserved for almost 100 years by the catholic church until Gutenburg printed the first bible. Though I will never be able to worship in a catholic church. There are pockets of people who "get it." It is unfortunate that there are not that many.
I also believe that Salvation and Lordship are two different things, and I am not in a position to question the inner post secret places of anyone but myself. All I can do is recongize how someones actions do not line up with the Bible, and use my experience as a sex addict to compassionately love those I can relate to, and prey for those I can not.
Finally, Bonnhoffer said that the church should get to the next level of fellowship by going from a gathering of "Redeemed Saints" to a group of broken sinners that are compassionately supporting each other through their sin in order to progress closer to the cross.
I believe the 12 step groups are much more like the early church Paul traveled around to than what we experience in church today.
I would love nothing more than to get in front of my church and share my story, because I know there are men suffering like I have from Sex addiction that have no idea where to go for help. But if I did that at this point, that would be the end of my ability to go to that church because of the judgement, and ignorance about sex addiction. This is very sad to me, and maybe someday this will change, but for now, here we are.
Any thoughts?
In the thread "The POWER of the addiction, you quoted Mark Laaser that 85% of the members of the church are sex addicts. I once heard Michael Reagan quote that 90% of all porn viewed in hotel rooms is done by pastors.
How does he know this? Did he collect data on the pay per view purchases, then cross reference them with the rooms that were rented by pastors. Did the hotels capture data on which of their guests were pastors, and keep track of the movies they watched, then provide this information to Michael for research purposes?
I am sorry I have to rebut this 85% statistic you quoted. How does Mark L. know this statustic? Or is his particular situation, and ministry focused on helping those in church leadership work through these problems, therefore, 85% of his patients are church leaders? Or something like that.
The population of sex addicts in the population is 3-5%. I agree that church attracts hurting people, and that more than the average population of sex addicts would be in church attendance for that reason, but 85% is not realistic.
Nor is the percception that the clergy are more likely to be those acting out and arrested in the ways you describe. I have read Laaser's stuff and taken a video course on SA from him. I think he is very good and made some very compelling and unique discoveries, like the fact that one of the core needs of all of us is to be deeply desired, and that a high perecentage of "addictive personalities" have a history of frontal lobe head trauma sometime in their lives. (like in the high 80%, including myself)
I also think he is in the ministry, and lost his career as a minister to his sex addiction, and is very capable of helping those in ministry through this experience.
But the notion that 85% of the church are sex addicts, and most of the arrests you described involve clergy is founded on personal perceptions of people who have either been hurt by the church, or the percentage of people involved in the church that have suffered and caused suffering through their sex addiction within the Body.
I think it is very easy to accuse the church of being hypocrits especially in our wealthy, superficial American society because those in the church who have not been through the "addiction fire" to be judgemental. This causes a deep amount of pain to lots of people. But this pain does not indite the church as a whole. It just exaserbates or amplifies the consequenses of the addicts behavior if done by leaders. Actually Paul discusses this in Timothy when he sais those who teach will be heald to a higher standard. I am glad that I am not a pastor of 1500 people, because without recovery, I would have hurt lots of people over the years of my acting out.
Having said this, I was sexually abused in a parochial school when I was 10, and in high school my assistant pastor had an affair which I believe spiritually exposed me to the abusive situation I got in right after high school.
So I agree with you that when those who are in positions of spiritual leadership over us are active in sexual sin, it leaves their flock open and exposed to devistating consequenses.
It is very close to the damage of being betrayed by a parent or someone else in our lives that we are supposed to rely on for safety and protection. It is devistating more than having it come from a stranger we are not relying on. So, maybe the truth is that the 3-5% of the cleargy that are sex addicts cause a disproportionate amount of damange by their acting out than say a software engineer, or an attorney.
Here is what I think. God uses the church as a safe incubator for his purposes. I think the Word was preserved for almost 100 years by the catholic church until Gutenburg printed the first bible. Though I will never be able to worship in a catholic church. There are pockets of people who "get it." It is unfortunate that there are not that many.
I also believe that Salvation and Lordship are two different things, and I am not in a position to question the inner post secret places of anyone but myself. All I can do is recongize how someones actions do not line up with the Bible, and use my experience as a sex addict to compassionately love those I can relate to, and prey for those I can not.
Finally, Bonnhoffer said that the church should get to the next level of fellowship by going from a gathering of "Redeemed Saints" to a group of broken sinners that are compassionately supporting each other through their sin in order to progress closer to the cross.
I believe the 12 step groups are much more like the early church Paul traveled around to than what we experience in church today.
I would love nothing more than to get in front of my church and share my story, because I know there are men suffering like I have from Sex addiction that have no idea where to go for help. But if I did that at this point, that would be the end of my ability to go to that church because of the judgement, and ignorance about sex addiction. This is very sad to me, and maybe someday this will change, but for now, here we are.
Any thoughts?
Nevertheless, what I take from the study is that this condition is highly prevalent. We talked about some of this last week at a training session at The Meadows (yes, I just went through a week of training with Pia.) During discussion on Love Addiction/Love Avoidance, the issue came up of why there are some many avoidants in our culture at present. The reason is that the permissive culture of the 1960's resulted in a highly boundary-less generation. It follows then that boundary-less parents will end up enmeshing their kids. As you might recall, love avoidance develops from enmeshment while love addiction develops from abandonment. These avoidants will seek addictions to kill the pain that results from enmeshment. To the avoidant, any addiction will do - sex, work, food, substance, exercise. How many work addicts you you all know? Obese people? Since I've entered recovery, practically all my friends are workaholics. No longer a cute term for me since I am a work addict as well. One problem with work addiction is not only acceptable but valued. Sex addiction on the other hand is generally done in secrecy and it can range from compulsive masturbation to internet porn to chatrooms to affairs etc. This makes taking accurate measures more difficult.
Moreover, the number of well functioning families at large is very low. Since sex addiction results from relational trauma, then those statistics do not surprise me.
I too understand that statistics can be manipulated to get just about any result. However, there are results that are highly significant and the numbers you gave Charli are impressive. This had to have been a gargantuan undertaking! As this condition (SA) enters the public's consciousness and more epidemiological data accrues, I think we will start seeing even more staggering numbers regarding the scope of the problem. Till then, I'm glad I'm sober!
I spoke with my minster again this morning, very briefly, about the discussion we are having here, and what I know of Mark's research. He told me that since out original talk about this matter, he's checked with some of his colleagues and was very surprised to learn that they all believed the 85% figure was TOO LOW!! Apparently, there are a whole lot more people talking with their pastors about sexual addiction than any of us ever imagined.
Now if you delute your definition of an addict to those who involve themselves in chat rooms, or read romance novels, or look at porn occasionally, then I would not hesitate to agree. But if you really are pulling from Dr. Carnes' developed definition, then my doubts will still outweigh my belief. I'm not saying its not true...if you showed me all the data collected, I would probably still question. It just seriously is a mind-boggling number to swallow. Charlie, you said yourself that you questioned several times. I guess it's my turn now. =)
And hey, if you talk to Mark again, let him know he's got a huge fan down in Southern California. And, thanks in part to his dedication on the subject, my husband is now co-leading a class at a sexual addiction workshop. I am indebted to both him and Dr. Carnes for the survival of my marriage! =)
I too spoke with both my pastor, and therapist about this number. Both blanket rejected the number. There seems to be two things in play here. First, what Callimommy mentioned regarding the definition of sex addiction.
Google resulted in a wiki article with no stats.
The second hit says (Michael Hervok, PHD)
"For some sex addicts, behavior does not progress beyond compulsive masturbation or the extensive use of pornography or phone or computer sex services. For others, addiction can involve illegal activities such as exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls, child molestation or rape.
Sex addicts do not necessarily become sex offenders. Moreover, not all sex offenders are sex addicts. Roughly 55 percent of convicted sex offenders can be considered sex addicts.
About 71 percent of child molesters are sex addicts. For many, their problems are so severe that imprisonment is the only way to ensure societys safety against them."
So 55% of sex offenders, and 85% of church goers are sex addicts, right?
I will begin to conceed abit on the masturbation part. If a survey asked men if they masturbated and kept it a secret from their wives, or were ashamed of it, and tried but could not stop. And used this as the definition of SA, maybe 85% would be the result. Doug Weise's reserch whould suggest this. But other criteria (3 required for a DX) would need to be present as well, such as escalation of the addiction over time, or withdrawl from normal social functioning. Stuff like that.
I am holding out for Mark's group to confirm this data. If it is confirmed with numbers, and resonable backing, then I am going to seminary, study christian counselling, write a few books, and make a career out of fixing the entire population of people who go to church.
If it is not confirmed, I am going to write this one off as fodder from an ever growing hostility toward the church along with pulling preachers who take a biblical stance on issues like abortion and homosexuality off of television networks.
Hyporcit, some who know my story might say? Of course I am. I am a sex addict! By definition I am a hypocrit, even to myself, for doing things that completely disgust me, and go against my own moral values inspite of the consequenses. Thats what I do.... or did.
The above is a cut and past from what I found on my Google bar....My google must be more powerful.
Lorilou
"The Drug Of The New Millenium...The brain science behind Pornography use" By Mark B Kastleman.
Page 9
What about Christians? Are they Immune?
50% of all christian men and 20% of all christian women are addicted to pornography.
60% of all women who answered the survey admitted to having signifigant struggles with lust.
40% admitted to being involved in sexual sin in the past year.
20% of the church going female participants struggle with looking on an ongoing basis.
51% of pastors say Internet porn is a temptation and 37% say it is a current struggle.
63% of men attending the "Men, Romance & Integrity Seminars" admit to struggling with porn in the past year. Two-thirds are in church leadership.
NOTE: These statistics and a myriad of others can be found in abundance on the internet. Two of the most valuable and comprehensive website resources include;
www.enough.org
www.nationalcoalition.org
I truly wish I could tell you the numbers cited above are not true, that they are somehow exaggerated. But I cannot. Rather, in my research and interviews with organisations and experts throughout the nation, I can tell you that may of the statistics you have just reviewed are conservative and understated. Others are outdated, having sigificantly increased, with technology.
Wow! Those are harsh stats. I still find them hard to believe, even though they are less severe than the earlier 85% figure. However given the stats on the rise of consumption of these websites, I'm not a total skeptic of these numbers. I'd be curious to find out more about how the collected the information that yielded these stats. Is it available online? Or is it in the book you referenced? Even if the rate in the actual population is less than those they sampled, it still has to be pretty high.
I can think of a few reasons why church goers might have higher rates than the general population. For one I think people go to church often because they are facing some struggle and seeking help, another is that I think churchgoers may be more likely to label the problem as an "addiction" since it likely doesn't fit with their religions value system, and finally I think that sometimes the rigorous moralism of some churches can produce black and white thinking in some that may make porn even more appealing as a way to rebel or be bad. I don't know if any of that translates into higher addiction rates in churches, but it looks like maybe so.
Thanks for posting this thought provoking info!
thx for the info. But again it comes down to the honesty of the person doing the survey, the person taking the survey and it has a lot A TON to do with how the questions are asked and weighted. everyone should keep that in mind