#5 is very... to the point. There is no room in tone for misunderstanding or even debate. I agree, 100%, and I don't really understand how some people cannot. Maybe because it's so engrained in me now after a lot of work that rapists cause rape and that is it.

That being said, it kinda hurts :( It's sad, really. It's so definite, and even says, "it will be a life-altering experience" and "people who experience sexual assault can tell the difference." These two things really jumped out at me. I think unless you have experienced it, or have taken the time to understand rape trauma, you can't understand the depth of these comments. They may roll off as "duh" moments, but it's so very very true. The life-altering part sucks.

I agree with Elisheva about the way a child of 10, or any other age "believes" themselves to be autonomous with the adult. I know I did, and that is exactly the problem I have now...and have had forever. How many times have you read where I have written, "But I know what I knew..."...? I BELIEVED I did know, at the time I was being sexually traumatized, I believed how it was presented to me, therefore, in my mind (which is all that really matters anyway), I was equally responsible. The facts set aside, for the sake of this discussion...I believed it, therefore, it was true -- for me in that moment.

BUT....the best thing about the post, and the discussion to follow is, there is evidence to be realized, that, every person who is sexually assaulted, whether or not they realize it completely, 100% of the time during the assault, or in the days, months, years after....there HAD to be consent on the parts of both parties, and that consent is based on ability to form consent...therefore, a sound mind is required. Now, whether a mind is not sound based on age, disability, intoxicants or any other reason...the basic fact remain...consent is required...a sound mind is required...period.

I now am re-evaluating the issues I believe I "knew" at the time. I am looking closely at what I was told, how it was presented to me...how it was "sold". I am also evaluating myself, at each of the ages I was during the abuse. I know, somewhere in the memories I have used to blame myself, there must also be proof, that she was not to blame, and ultimately, that I am blameless as well.

I was "precocious". I was timid, which might have resembled a certain level of "invite". But, it was exactly what Stehfest described with her neice. I was acting out things I had seen, and things I had been shown. Did I have an "understanding" of what I was doing? Only insomuch as I was able to find a smile on my dad's face...or someone would laugh at me...not so much that I readily understood any of what I was doing. I am learning to believe that now. Little Me had learned things beyond her years...things that should have been suspect, but were received as comedic. I can only imagine a life had they paid closer attention, and acted on what they witnessed.

"I agree with Elisheva about the way a child of 10, or any other age "believes" themselves to be autonomous with the adult"

I think this is the reason we struggle to forgive ourselves. As we grow up we think of ourselves as adults and when we are adults it is difficult to see that we weren't adults back then...because we feel the same as we always did and we don't often notice the ways in which our thinking changes and evolves.

This may be a topic for another thread but what exactly is "precocious"? Is it not just another derogatory sexual term for a female that does not actually exist, such as; slut or whore? Would any of us look at a child who is sexually acting out or innocently "flirtatious" (for lack of a better word) and think that they are precocious?

No Heptet...precocious doesn't even have to be sexual. It is like, when a child is more adult than their age would indicate. Like...with precocious puberty...it is a medical term for when a child enters puberty before the normal, expected age to do so. There are children, who because of hormonal issues, enter puberty as a child, not an adolescent. That was not the type to which I was referring. I simply meant, I was "much older than my age", and it went on in my head. BUT, I was also quite perplexed by it all, and ended up being a "baby" much longer than I should have. Indeed, when I am extra tired, too stressed, upset or triggered, to this day my voice changes, and I go into a "baby talk" mode. I tend not to notice it, but to others, it is quite noticeable.

I think you said it well. I agree, this is the reason, or at the minimum, a contributing factor to why we struggle to forgive ourselves. It is quite a struggle for me to undo decades of this kind of thought. In my mind, for such a long, long time, I believed things I am only now learning to be false. So, it is just much harder to undo it. I hear people tell me the "reason" I do this, or that. But, it just settles on the surface, where my intelligent thought seems to reside. It fails to sink down deep, where my emotions would do good to believe it.

Definitions of 'precocious'[pri-koh-shuhs]
Dictionary.com - (Showing 1 definitions)
adjective
1. unusually advanced in mental development or talent

(From Ask.com)

pre·co·cious adj pri-k-shs

Definition of PRECOCIOUS
1: exceptionally early in development or occurrence <precocious puberty>
2: exhibiting mature qualities at an unusually early age <a precocious child>
— pre·co·cious·ly adverb
— pre·co·cious·ness noun
— pre·coc·i·ty pri-kä-s-t noun


Examples of PRECOCIOUS
She was a precocious child who could read before she went to school.

A precocious musician, he was giving concerts when he was seven.

"Would any of us look at a child who is sexually acting out or innocently "flirtatious" (for lack of a better word) and think that they are precocious? "

This relates to something Stehtfest wrote about her neice. I wonder, when I see a child who is overtly "adult", what it is they being exposed to. It is often quite innocent however, because when a child has no peers who are children, and they are "drawn in" to adult conversations, and exposed only to mature themes and such...treated as an adult, it settles in. It doesn't always mean they are being abused and have other adult "attributes" like sexuality. I think you can be quite the little adult, and it all be quite benign in the area of sexual behavior.

For me, it should have been a huge red flag. My actions were conflicted and confusing. Not to mention, I was openly masturbating as a very little girl. Why they did not "see" I was in huge trumoil, well....THAT they didn't see is the contributing factor to my distress of today. If a child acts like an adult...lingers with the adults moreso thant the children...talks to strangers as if she thinks of herself as an adult...AND is frantically masturbating to the point a Doctor and a Preacher are called in for advice -- there is a problem. It should have been investigated, and I have no doubt, in today's society, it would be. But, it was the very thing used to perpetrate the crime, in my case. I look back now, and I see it clearly. My behavior was used as proof of the physical evidence that was so glaringly obvious. He manipulated, not only me, but the physician treating my numerous urinary tract infections, (the care for which was quite traumatic to a five year old anyway...catheterizing a child isn't done frequently if one can avoid it), and he had me singled out to our church's pastor. No one "put two and two together". I was labeled, and each person brought in to the circle of family distress over my overt sexual actions as a five year-old, was convinced, quite readily, it was something originating in the core of me.

Meanwhile, he was free to continue, and I knew he had everyone convinced. It was quite wise of him actually...as a perpetrator, I mean. Unless someone spoke to someone else....it all seemed quite the way he described. I had a cut as a very tiny girl...I learned to "touch" myself because of all the "treatment" for the cut...touching became a habit, and they simply had no way of breaking that habit. It was all me. They believed his words, because, even in the doctors office, my tiny fingers found their way into my panties. He saw me act out. He knew I was doing exactly as my dad described to him. How was a mere child to counter that?

I would submit, I countered it by "screaming more loudly" in silence. I not only masturbated to excess, I began, at around five or six, to poke things into myself. I frequently had scratches or surface cuts to the area when I had to be catheterized for those damnable specimens. AND, he even explained away the reasons he always accompanied me to the doctor and held me down for those catheters to be shoved in my intimate places. My mother has Multiple Sclerosis. He explained that she was unable to hold me effectively. So, even when I was ten and eleven, my dad would come in to the exam room, and he and a nurse would battle to hold my legs open. It became the one and only time I was mentally able to fight openly. I never allowed the catheter to slip in easily. I fought like a demon to stop it. I screamed, and I kicked, and I hit when my hands were free to do so. I knew I would be beaten when I got home. It didn't matter. I fought, and in my mind, I was screaming..."Somebody please stop him...please!"

I've always wondered about sex during an altered state of mind, not necessarily drunk, or due to substance use but due to grossly impaired judgement due to mental illness, in say a psychotic state?

Maybe you did say 'no' maybe you didn't ....also due to the psychosis; recollection of the event is sketchy, but the next day (or when out of psychosis) you feel violated and disgusting.

I can imagine that CharlieKat. I can see a person even being triggered to the point of a dissociative state, and being likely to act out sexually when they can't make a clear decision to be doing such. That is a good thought...I still think it is abusive...but if the person doesn't read you correctly...?? Ugh.

It's not even a dissociative state; when psychosis comes, much of what happens is not remembered, or you might remember your delusions or however it manifests, not not necessarily where you are of what you are doing.

I remember days when I was obsessed with something, i really can't remember, but i didn't remember some conversation's I'd had and the 15 books i bought in two-three days.

I suppose its like having a blackout when you are drinking, which is funny because i don't black out when i drink.

You end up having sex with people, not really consenting or objecting, because you were too busy with you obsession with the NSA

I think it is perfectly possible to be raped without the other person having committed rape.

What I mean by that is that even if the the other party had no idea that you weren't consenting with full mind and body, the fact remains that one's body has been entered into without full wholehearted consent. However non-consenting interaction happens, it can hurt a lot.

If this sounds too far fetched, consider someone dropping a cement block on your foot. Even if it was entirely accidental, the foot still hurts and may be broken or crushed. The person's intent did not change the fact that an injury occurred. In the same way, sexual interactions without full consent can be experienced as very painful, regardless of the reason why non-consensual interaction happened.

The important thing is to deal with the pain of those instances and whatever damage they cause. The pain is still real and needs tender loving care.

It really sucks when something very painful and momentous happens and there is no one to blame. Not yourself because you were too psychotic be making decisions as yourself. Not the other person because they didn't know how to read you or because they didn't know you weren't actually all there.

On the other hand, if the person was care giver or an intimate who has been trained to read the signs of psychosis, then initiating sexual interaction is unconscionable and it is rape in both senses - for you as the victim and for the caregiver/"friend" who KNEW you weren't fully there to be making choices.

UUGhh I was gonna just journal about something then I read this
<<It really sucks when something very painful and momentous happens and there is no one to blame.>>

This is what I am dealing with.
tw maybe
Went out with a guy and it was embarrassing cause we went into his room, we had been together in highschool before i was raped. I guess I felt i could trust him, but we started to fool around and I know I had been in sortof a desparate state in terms of wanting to heal and wondering if just being to same two people who rape didn't happen with before would then heal me... return me ... but he did something wrong and then I felt aweful. He grabbed an apple core and started to rub me with it. I think I just didn't know what to do I wasn't into it and yet didn't do anything to stop it and hoped it would be okay but the also i didn't like the sounds I was making more like a mix with pain and discomfort instead of oh yeah pleasure. ANd worse there were people in the room next door and they could probable hear. I was pissed and embarrassed and felt he shouldn't have done that. i felt oh god do these people think I am into sex that makes me make a sound of pain UUKK. I felt a sharp pang and stopped everything and left. felt he had turned out to be a foe but also felt so bad about myself also for having gotton into it. Went home and the next days something was way off... in fact my clit was completely numb. I couldn't feel a thing and it was like to my core. It was scary. I felt cut off from God and life. I looked and there was a tiny tiny tiny little cut on the side of my clit. Looked like a paper cut. I got scared. Anyway I ceased to be able to orgasm after this for years and years. Well I guess that was already a problem after the abuser but not like this was. I feel like it was something bad that happened but didn't know who was to blame. I dont' think he meant to scratch that but then part of me thinks maybe on some level he knew he was doing something bad.

How it makes me feel about myself is that i feel sortof useless degraded
yet don't know who's to blame.I guess it was that I couldn't trust him and yet put myself in that position...i know I was sortof wigged out about the rape and the memories of not having been raped and confused about what to do and felt bad. I wonder if the numbness was greatly mental and emotional reaction or physical, could a tiny cut make a neurological difference. Or the fear associated with something like that happening in such what should be a vulnerable but trustworthy position.

but i wonder if he had a little bit of psychosis cause when he picked me up i felt a strange energy hit my brain when he came in so maybe i should have known not to get any closer that night. : (

" put myself in that position"

I have to disagree with this. You didn't know how to escape the situation, that doesn't make it your fault. It was a shocking thing to happen and something you clearly didn't enjoy.

There were quite a few times when I was younger where I would hope someone would see/hear my discomfort and come rescue me because I didn't feel able to say no or stop it myself. Not necessarily in an abusive situation - a time that stands out for me was when I had gone to a nightclub at about 16 years old. A guy I was dancing with started feeling me up and I was really uncomfortable with it. I was facing out towards my friends so I tried to catch their attention and show via my face that I needed help. It didn't work and I kept thinking that maybe they thought I wanted this guy all over me.

I don't see it as being my fault. I think my body language was quite clear to him and others around me that I was uncomfortable. I was just too inexperienced/too shy/afraid of making my needs clear.

Looking at the above definitions of sex and sexual assault, where do you think your experience fits?

I wrote about it in my journal.

I think people can be alot more aware and willing to intervene when something like that happens. All your friends had to do is go over to you make some contact and then find out that you needed some help out. i think that's what friends do. They go over by you check it out you would either nod you're okay or you would shake your head and they would lead you away from him.

I think that depends on the person. It didn't happen in my situation. There is a lot of research into bystander reactions or inactions. I'll see what i can pull up for you..if you want that is?