TRIGGER WARNING...SORRY


Hmmm. I was upset with the "sexual assault" definition for a second. Where is reads..."sexual assault is not sex for the person assaulted.....sexual assault is ANY "unwanted" sexual contact....."

I was upset, because there were times I was convinced I enjoyed it...times I believed it was appropriate, and I didn't feel "assaulted".

Then, I got to the place where it reads...."consent must be given with free will and from a SOUND STATE OF MIND....."

Hmmmm. That is the "game changer" for me. I was operating under a mind that was anything but sound. I was not in a normal state of mind at all. I am finally able to see, a four year old has no ability to believe anything but what they are taught...they are dependent on the adults in their lives to teach them responsibly. I am learning, that my "little me", she was too little to know better, therefore, her mind was not sound. Her mind was just forming, and that was really the first act of rape I experienced...yes, a mind can be raped. I fully believe that. Sexuality resides in the mind as much as it does in any other physical place. Control over the sexuality in one's mind...how can the definition not fit?

I had always, for decades believed that I was a "willing participant" in the dance my father called "instruction", or worse...."responsibility". I believed that I was doing things I wanted to do...for the worst reason possible...to please God. If a Sunday School Teacher tells you, you must honor your father and your mother...and there are no exceptions, you listen. I was never told mommies and daddies are wrong sometimes...no one ever said that to me. If, when you masturbate compulsively as a five year old, yet your parents are so concerned they bring a Pastor of the church to speak to you...and he says..."God is not pleased with you putting your hands there....you have to listen to your mommy and your daddy and do everything they say....."...you do. Everything.

I had every reason in the world to do exactly as I did, and almost no reason to stop.

People should weigh all the options before they interject their instruction...no matter how well-intentioned. I was told by very responsible people, "Keep f***ing your father, or you are in danger of Hell's fire". And I was just a little girl.

Before discussion gets going, let me say this:

I didn't write this. It's posted purely to promote intelligent discussion. Without a doubt, it's impossible for any definition of these terms to be universally applicable. Which means that as people find points of variance, it doesn't mean the original text is flawed, it means people are more diverse than any brief text on sexuality can cover.

Leitha, as you read further (and then commented on it), I think you made some good points that validate things in the original post (OP). For example, the importance of a sound mind. A person might comply with things because of threats, religious deception, manipulation of their child's reality, etc., but that compliance is not "consent." I think that's why it's important to note that "it's not sex for the person being assaulted." There's so much discussion about the degree to which rape is sexual or not, and this makes it clearer: it might be "sexual" to the assailant, but it is not sex to the person being assaulted, because by definition "sex" is mutual, consensual, and happens through an act of shared control.

"All of the parties involved want to be there, and they have complete control over their decision."

This is really helpful to me. I struggled with attaching the label "sexual abuse" to what happened to me all through my teens. Most days, now, I can see it for what it was, but there are days when I waffle, question myself, blame myself. The words "want to be there" are significant: I did everything I could in order NOT to be there mentally and emotionally. And complete control over my decision? Definitely not.

I also struggled, like so many women, with calling my rape what it was. Contrasting it with "regretted sex" was helpful to me. I wish I'd read something like this years ago.

I just recently reattempted the sex section and this is something that came up for me. I still struggle separating the two. I wanted to be there, i wanted to make him happy..is that regretted sex not rape? I don't know. I struggle separating my needs from his.

I wanted to please him so bad i would do anything but had there been a choice it wouldn't have been via sex.

Guess i just answered my own question "had there been a choice".

It's a good basic list but i think it is hard as a survivor to use is as a barometer. If i hadn't written this reply i'd probably be reconsidering what i viewed to be rape as regretted sex..since in my head i find it easy to omit elements like the total control he had and treat myself like a person totally capable of saying her own needs

It seems that the common thread in most of us is that the deffinitions where never clear and concise. They don't teach that where I come from. As woman and children many of us are taught that you can't say NO and that your choices don't matter. I know no that it does and the things that my parents taught were not wrong just flawed. I should have had the right to not finnish my dinner or not hug my uncle because it is my body and if I FEEL full or uncomfortable I should have the right to say NO. My parents where VERY old school and belived that girls should be silent and never be "difficult" I am buy nature "difficult" so I had the fight beat out of be little by little. I am getting it back now and I must say my family is not liking it at all.
Back to the main topic... After reading this I now know that Sex is not sex if all partys involved are not willing and able.
My question is if a 10 year old child is flurting with an older man and he has sex with her is it rape?

"My question is if a 10 year old child is flurting with an older man and he has sex with her is it rape? .."

Yes. "Consent must be given with free will and from a sound state of mind for the act to be sex and not sexual assault." A 10 year old child cannot give consent. That is why there are laws stating that an adult who has sex with a minor has commited rape. Because a minor is not capable of giving consent. And even though a child may not be aware that they are not mature enough to be able to give consent, the adult knows. Yet the adult still takes advantage of the child's vulnerability.

I just read the chapter in RAR about why some me rape. It was a real eye opener! I find it facinating that nither Biological or Social can come up with a real answer. Why can't people see that the Rapes are all diffrent because the motivations are diffrent for each rapest. I have been rape twice and neither rape has any thing in common with the other. The first I was 10 and the man who raped me I belive was in need of an aggresive releace and I was the unfortunate target because I was easy prey. The second was much different because I was older and I belive that there may have been biological undertones because in that country if you can get an american woman pregnent you have a free pass in and out of america I saw it in the airport. Also it had a social aspect in that woman in Jamacia are not realy people but an object to be used for plesure. Each rape should be analized and both bio and social aspects should be addressed. Men have a need for sexual release because there seuality and their mascilinity are so tightly bound in our society that many say they would never rape and yet they have and don't even know they have because they don't view what they have done as rape. The deffinition of rape needs to be based on the act and intent not just the act and effect after. If you can prove murder intent you can deffinantly prove rape intent.

I think about the only thing you can say that rapists have in common is intent - intent to do what they please without regard to the needs, desires, consent or capability of consent of another person.

In certain cultures, I think men assume that they are have rights that they don't have. There are times when rape is less a willful unintentional disregard of another human being and simply (and sadly) socially sanctioned selfishness - from the rapists point of view that is. From the victim's point of view, it is all rape because choice was taken and violated.

I think and hope that education and social change can reduce rape rationalized by culturally justified selfishness. Men and women alike take social cues from our environment about how far to push ourselves on others. There isn't a firm line between "selfishness" and "too demanding" in any culture. A lot of times when we're taught that the other person is "selfish" or "too demanding" we feel we have the right to disregard their protests. I think we shouldn't - even if it is wrong for a person to withhold help, it doesn't give us the right to steal. However, many people do function that way: if you are being selfish, they think "I don't have to listen to you. " if I really need something. Couple that with the popular image of sex as a "need" and you have a tragedy waiting to happen.

Part of what we need to do get rid of culturally sanctioned rape is to change social definitions of selfishness. Women are not selfish because they say no to sex. Nor are men. They are just expressing their sovereign right over their own bodies.

However, doing so will never entirely get rid of rape. Even in cultures that support male selfishness, most men don't rape and a certain percentage (how much?) would do it anyway without the cultural support. They are just taking advantage of the cultural cover for their behavior.

-- My question is if a 10 year old child is flirting with an older man and he has sex with her is it rape? --

That is always a hard question for the ten year old because it is the nature of a child at any age to see themselves as an autonomous chooser even if in reality nearly all their choices are constrained and influenced by the adults around them.

It really is important to be able to see the child-self with both the eyes of the childhood and the eyes of adulthood. The feelings come from our childhood eyes for after all the child-self lived through it all. The understanding and context can only come from the adult-self who has seen life from "both sides now" and has an understanding of the world around a child that a child can never have.

I think about the only thing you can say that rapists have in common is intent - intent to do what they please without regard to the needs, desires, consent or capability of consent of another person.

In certain cultures, I think men assume that they are have rights that they don't have. There are times when rape is less a willful intentional disregard of another human being and simply (and sadly) socially sanctioned selfishness - from the rapists point of view that is. From the victim's point of view, it is all rape because choice was taken and violated.

I think and hope that education and social change can reduce rape rationalized by culturally justified selfishness. Men and women alike take social cues from our environment about how far to push ourselves on others. There isn't a firm line between "selfishness" and "too demanding" in any culture. A lot of times when we're taught that the other person is "selfish" or "too demanding" we feel we have the right to disregard their protests. I think we shouldn't - even if it is wrong for a person to withhold help, it doesn't give us the right to steal. However, many people do function that way: if you are being selfish, they think "I don't have to listen to you. " if I really need something. Couple that with the popular image of sex as a "need" and you have a tragedy waiting to happen.

Part of what we need to do get rid of culturally sanctioned rape is to change social definitions of selfishness. Women are not selfish because they say no to sex. Nor are men. They are just expressing their sovereign right over their own bodies.

However, doing so will never entirely get rid of rape. Even in cultures that support male selfishness, most men don't rape and a certain percentage (how much?) would do it anyway without the cultural support. They are just taking advantage of the cultural cover for their behavior.

-- My question is if a 10 year old child is flirting with an older man and he has sex with her is it rape? --

That is always a hard question for the ten year old because it is the nature of a child at any age to see themselves as an autonomous chooser even if in reality nearly all their choices are constrained and influenced by the adults around them.

It really is important to be able to see the child-self with both the eyes of the childhood and the eyes of adulthood. The feelings come from our childhood eyes for after all the child-self lived through it all. The understanding and context can only come from the adult-self who has seen life from "both sides now" and has an understanding of the world around a child that a child can never have.

I think it's important to remember that all children flirt, tease and find other ways to get the attention they want. It is a natural process of growing up we then stick to what we know works.

It is never the responsibility of the child to not do something that is part of their learning curve. Flirting to a child is not the same as an adult doing it. When i was a similar age i had my first crush and it was a friend of my dad. My thought process was really simple..boys like it when girls wear short skirts or show their pants so i'll do that and hope he notices and likes. By like i meant me as a person..not like sexually. Took me a long time to realise it wasn't my fault. It's always the responsibility of the adult to not act on a child's behaviour. Particularly as it is not about sex for the child. Even a child whom knows what sex/abuse is and how to get a sexual response..it's not their fault. They are still looking for proper care and attention. Not abuse.

Yeah when I was little I would flurt with any guy I met just to grab his attention. After the first rape I never have knowingly flurted again. I am trying to get that back but it is hard.
The idea of "sharing"sex for me is weard because I have never felt safe enough to want to share that part of myself and also I am scared to death of the terror it might bring back from my past. I don't know if I will ever get past my fears so that I can love and be loved.

Heptet, I have to disagree. I don't think children 'flirt' the way that we think of it. They may emulate behavior they observe in the world, but I think an intent behind flirting is a sexual or romantic one. I don't think small children have that intent. In my mind though, I should say, I visual a small child, not a teenage one, who may have an idea about flirting. I think it is impotant to make some sort of distinction considering many women on this board address childhood abuse (as far as I can tell and I could be wrong) occurring at a young - under 13? age.

At any rate, I believe in my heart of hearts that 10-years are not developmentally able to consent to sex; or they fully could understand what 'flirting' implies or could be interpeted. However, people who take advantage of 10-year olds are bastards.

Maybe i wasn't clear enough in what i wrote..sorry. I don't think children flirt with the same intention an adult does, regardless of prior sexual knowledge. That's why it is the adults responsibility not to act on what appears to be flirting. Some of the ways my 19 month old nephew tries to grab my attention would fall under a "flirt" bracket but it certainly isn't adult flirting-it's him using smiles etc to grab and keep my attention. This is all basic survival instinct stuff

One of my nieces, when she was little, used to do this thing to get male attention. Apparently she had seen a woman provocatively flirting in a movie, so she did her highly dramatic version of it. On the one hand, it was highly amusing and cute. On the other hand, it was worrying because there are creepy guys out there. Plus it made my boys extremely uncomfortable. She was an innocent little girl and was certainly not being seductive. It was just a pretend role for her, like when she would act like a hippie or medical doctor. But her parents had to explain that sort of behavior was just for adults and, even then...did any of the women she knew act like that? (If she'd been older, she might have replied, "No, because all of you are boring, frumpy old marrried women!"

However, one relative viewed this pretending to be a sign that my little niece had issues or she wouldn't be trying to convince men she was sexually available. To which I replied snottily that her real issue was that she was trying to convince us all that she was a doctor one moment and a kidnapped Arabian princess the next. (She is now in high school, has been in dramas and musicals, and is the kind of good girl every parent longs for!)

This kind of "flirting" is something some little girls will do to try on a role, a stage they go through in figuring out what it means to be a girl. No one thinks little boys are "asking to be shot" when they play soldiers. No one should think little girls are asking for anything either...except maybe a cookie. (My niece once asked in what was an attempt at a sultry voice, "What does a girl have to do to get a cookie around here?" and her parents replied, "Stand normally and ask in your real voice.")