I should mention that I really am OK. We (my husband and I) are ok. It was just a moment and like all other moments it will pass. Just sort of emotionally puking so I don't sit alone cooking on it all day.

** you feel like asking him: "are we ok?" **

I never thought this was a question that needed to be asked in a marriage, but have since realized that its something that needs to be considered periodically. And maybe in all relationships for that matter.


Glad this was just a blip for you! Do you think its getting easier as time goes by? I haven't dwelled on it for awhile, but was unexpectedly annoyed and angry around our 5 year anniversary. its like my subconscious remembers even when I tune it out mentally.

I think this blip hit me in the gut so hard just for that reason: I just don't much think about the affair all that much anymore. Issues we have are issues we have - now - and any of the garbage of the past is past. And we really have been doing SO well.

I always tell people that this type of healing is not linear. This is just a firm reminder for myself.

Had a long solo drive back home on Saturday and happened to catch an author being interviewed on some small station out in the boonies. He talked about how we all stumble in different ways. Being married with a human comes with disappointment - mostly when we try to use that relationship to fill a spiritual space. Marriages were never meant to be easy or perfect.

This hit pretty hard because one of my biggest resentments after Dday was that my fairytale was tarnished. Lol.

He also said that selfishness eventually gets boring. Infatuation can only last so long.

H and I drove separately to our Thanksgiving gathering because of work/school conflicts - he went a few days ahead of me and was getting a little needy while we were apart. He said he still pictures me packing my bags and leaving when he's not there. As much as we still grrr about this mess, they do too. Can't say I'm entirely sad that he still suffers a bit. ;) Just a little.

I get pretty deeply triggered on occasion. I'm less of the "are we ok" type and more of the "we are sooo fucked" type. Not a good way to be for sure. For me the triggers will always exist and they will always cut deep because of the OC.

His mere existence is cause to keep her in our lives to some degree. So it's sort of like the cs who works with the AP . In general the child himself does not trigger me but circumstances that arise because of him do.

I'm grateful that these times are not often.

BTW it's take care of vitamin D levels session l season with the sun going down so early.

Yeah. Doc has me back on the 50,000 units a week dose, which leaves me feeling like I am somehow failing or doing something wrong, but shy of hitting the tanning beds (pass...) I don't know how else to boost my vitamin D.

FWIW, I have always admired your strength, Pink. I was so tied in knots about the OW we moved 3hrs away. A child would have been a deal breaker for me. Not because of the child but because of the ongoing interaction with the OW. I just don't have it in me. I feel guilty for saying that because I really do love my husband, but there it is.

I understand the need to ask if things are okay. I've thought about that recently, even though I too don't tend to think about the As that much anymore. My focus tends to be on my to-do list, dealing with parkinson's, and trying to find the time and motivation to write more.

It's odd though. Even though I feel I have this need to confirm that we are on track, I no longer trust the answer so much. I guess that's because I had a habit of asking and evaluating that very thing each anniversary. I considered it a once-a-year check-up time for our marriage when we were already focused on each other and were already in that mode of thinking. Each year we acknowledged some of our issues, but that despite those, we were still very much in love and happy with each other. Yet that didn't prevent her from falling into an A a mere 5 months later in 2010.

I don't think it was because she was lying to me in May of 2010 when I asked if she was happy with our marriage and where we were at as a couple, and she said she was, despite it not being perfect. I think it was a combination of her not realizing her own vulnerabilities to an A (she didn't think it possible it would happen, which ironically made playing with fire seem not such a big deal), a desire not to "spoil" the anniversary with negative thoughts, and possibly being in the moment of love feelings on our anniversary made any other issues seem to pale in importance. Essentially a lack of motivation to really dig and evaluate on more than a surface level what was going on inside herself well enough to dig for an honest answer.

I too had issues, but for the most part had come to a place of contentment on much of it and had accepted that this was just the way things were and were unlikely to change. But I knew I loved her and had no desire for anyone else. Indeed, if I had wanted to have an affair, I probably could have easily. One of my issues pre-A was the lack of respect I felt from her. I've listed those reasons before, so I won't go through the list, but though I know she loved me, I didn't feel she respected me that much. Meanwhile, my woman boss at work highly respected me, spent a lot of time with me including working late and lunches. She always had high praise for me. In retrospect, I can see that was a classic affair scenario. And like Gabi, I didn't believe I'd ever fall into an affair myself. Told my boss as much when she asked one day whether it was a problem with Gabi, us having lunch together so often. I told her we trusted each other completely and I knew the chance either of us would cheat on each other was practically nil. After Gabi's A was revealed, it became apparent that my surety that I'd never cheat had me playing with fire as well, even though nothing ever happened there to move beyond friendship and into an A. We never even had so much as conversations of an intimate nature, just talking about work, our kids, and other general topics. But I certainly spent a lot more time with her, even in conversation, than I did with Gabi. I don't know if I would have ever started "feeling" anything for her beyond friendship had that situation continued. I guess there is always the potential it could have changed into more. But even now I would have a hard time seeing that happening, and if she had started to push for more, it would have likely caused me to back away. But who can say what might have happened? What did happen is despite having a wife who I didn't feel respected me and a boss who I spent a lot of time with who did, I never once seriously considered having an A with her, nor did I ever feel in love with her because of that issue.

So I guess I had assumed Gabi was in the same boat. She had some issues with me, and I for the most part knew what they were though I didn't appreciate the extent and importance of them to her (she may not have either), but I knew she loved me and was devoted to me. So when she showed me the picture of her eventual AP one day (possibly before our anniversary in 2010) saying, "Isn't he adorable?" I never seriously thought that was a sign she was in the process of falling in love with another, though now I know it was even if she didn't admit it to herself. So, no, when I asked that question of her on May 15, 2010 whether she was still happy with our marriage and everything was good between us and she said yes, I didn't know that indeed it was not good, and there was a major problem brewing in her.

Though that reality has made me a lot more skeptical of the veracity of an answer to that question, I do have some reasons to trust such an answer more now than I shouldn't have back then. One, neither of us has the assumption that "it can't happen to me," so we are both more aware of signs indicating we are headed the wrong direction. Two, we've both done some major, intense evaluation of our relationship and made course corrections, so I think we are less likely to offer surface/easy answers to that question. Three, we both take more seriously any signs or indications that we are on a dangerous path and wouldn't assume they don't mean anything, but now see them as warnings one of us is headed down the wrong path and deal with it them, before it becomes a serious vulnerability to an A.

Still, I guess I still fear not being able to trust that answer. That as time goes by, we will have slipped in our diligence on these things, we'll let things slide and fall back into the same patterns that got us in trouble the first time.

As a matter of fact, honestly, while I'm happy on one hand that Gabi has returned to being her normal self in many ways, though we still have changes that have stuck, yet getting back to "normal" makes me a little uneasy as well. She no longer thinks about the As all the time. It is no longer front and center. And while we've addressed most of the pressing issues, I fear due to my struggle to engage with her 100% of the time she wants or needs it, that she will start to feel lonely again, or fear it, which I think underlaid the basis of her vulnerability to have an A. Especially since my Parkinson's makes it even more difficult for me to respond adequately to her desire for "intimate conversation." I have this fear that if not now, down the road this will become a bigger issue that will bring about the same results. She indicated to me that in the month or two before she started her A with AP#1, that she was feeling particularly distant from me.

So there are things that have gone back to the way they were pre-A, but not completely. For instance, it is well documented on this and the infidelity forum, that one of the things that changed big time for us is the amount of sex we had. Pre-A, about an average of twice a month. Saturday morning was the only available time she would consider doing it (aside from special times like our anniversary) and if something came up like a job or an activity she wanted to go to, then it was a no-go for that week, which happened frequently. When the As started, she suddenly went from that to wanting sex everyday, sometimes multiple times a day. That continued after dday and didn't really start to change until the end of our third year post-dday, and gradually started slowing down throughout the fourth year. Currently we are down to around once or twice a week, which is still much better than it was before. But from two Sundays before Thanksgiving until two days ago, we didn't have sex once. I believe that was the first time since dday we'd gone more than a week without having sex at least once.

While I understood the reasons for it (she was crazy busy trying to fit work in before the Thanksgiving holidays, and then we spent visiting our daughter and grandkids from Wed. of last week through Sat. which due to sleeping arrangements (air mattresses in the living room and kitchen) didn't allow for any privacy or opportunity for it, I couldn't help but feel a little concern that we are gradually moving back to the way it was before. The big difference is that while Pre-A she was content to not have sex for a month or two at a time (one time in 2010 before the A started, I didn't do anything to push for or start sex to see how long she'd go before wanting it--it took a month), now she's feeling deprived because we aren't having sex as much as she'd like, mostly due to her exhaustion from working so much that opportunity has lessened. That said, it is a big contrast even in the first year or two post-dday when she didn't care how little sleep she would get, she'd initiate sex even at 2 am when she'd be waking up at 6 or 7 am. So while I'm glad on one hand she is no longer so sex crazed like she was during and immediately after the A (one sign that should have said to me something was wrong) and she's back to the person I've always known her to be, only better, it also makes me worried that the move to pre-A normal won't stop and even the changes that still exist will gradually melt away with the years.

Another example. I certainly don't think or feel any longer that she doesn't respect me or treat me as the low person on the totem pole in the family any longer. But some signs of that have crept back in. Nothing big, just small things like like the return of the tone in her voice when questioning me on something that sounds accusatory and I have to struggle not to be put on the defensive by it. Even if I'm successful at not going on the defensive, she'll not be satisfied with me saying sorry one or even two times.

Or the recent event that used to happen regularly pre-A. A common scenario is when I'd be focused on something, like reading or writing at my desk, and she'd come in and start talking about whatever. I would have trouble shifting my focus from what I was doing to what she was saying. She would get frustrated that I was "ignoring" her and not responding to what she was saying. One of her needs is conversation, and I regularly failed to meet that need in that type of situation. So at some point when she was getting worked up because I wasn't really listening to her, I would with some effort pull my focus away from what I was doing and concentrate on her. By then it was generally too late. Her conversation had changed from whatever it was to the fact I was "ignoring" her and how frustrated that made her, but she put it in very accusatory terms, like it was all my fault and I was the one with the problem. This was often compounded by the fact that when I did shift my focus, and it did take some effort, I would sometimes do so with a loud grunt or such to indicate the difficulty I was experiencing to do that. Sort of like a karate guy might yell out when hitting a brick or board to break it. What she interpreted that to mean, however, is that I was frustrated with her for pulling me away from what I really wanted to do and I thought she wasn't as important as whatever I was doing at the time. I saw it as she was important enough to go through the struggle to shift my focus even though it was difficult. That wasn't the message she got, which ended up making her more frustrated at me and ensured a several minute discussion of each of us defending how we felt and/or me trying to salvage the situation with multiple sorries and assurances that I did want to listen to her and respond.

Like I said, that happened frequently pre-A and each time it started, I felt I was doomed. There was nothing I could do to prevent it from eventually happening or stopping it once it did. I would simply have to ride it out as best I could. There were always going to be times when I couldn't shift my focus quickly enough to satisfy her need. If I could have shifted on a dime when she started talking I'd gladly done so, because it would have meant a lot less time talking about whatever she felt a need to discuss and we'd both be much happier. And sometimes I successfully did that and avoided that situation, but I had to be quick and nimble on my feet. I had to think to myself when she walked in the room, "She's starting to talk to me, I'd better stop what I'm doing and shift my focus to her without making it seem it is a struggle to do so, or else we'll spend the next 30 minutes to an hour in an uncomfortable discussion on how hurt she is because I don't really care about her when it isn't true." But being the one-track introvert that I am, I knew I couldn't do that successfully every time. And the fact I had done it successfully didn't negate the times I failed, at least in the accusation that I didn't think she was more important than stuff I was doing.

Since dday, that has rarely happened. It happened more fully just the other day. I was struggling to make a program work on my computer, and was all into fixing it. She walked in and started talking about something. I was half listening, but mostly continued to focus on fixing the program because I felt I had one or two more steps to see if it worked, then I could turn my attention to her. About the time she decided to ask, "Are you listening to me?" the program I was trying to fix locked up the computer again, which caused me to let lose some bear-like growls in frustration. Since I knew she wanted my attention and it was going to take longer to fix the program, I decided that was a good stopping point to focus on her and what she was saying. Unfortunately, she thought I was growling at her for interrupting me and started acting hurt by it. She continued to feel that way even after I explained I wasn't growling at her but to the computer. But unlike pre-A, we discussed the dynamic of it more and what we might do in the future to avoid it. I think we are both more in tune with what is going on with each other and why we tend to respond like we do. Doesn't always avoid the hurt feelings, but at least we know why it happened and are more sensitive to each other's issues. But it feels like the old pattern of responding to each other is moving back to the way it was pre-A.

All that to say, the more things seem to be moving back to how they were before, even if it isn't like it was before, the movement in that direction becomes a trigger. Something I hadn't considered before. The goal was to get back to normal, even if it was a new normal. But the more the new normal starts to look like the old normal, the more the fears grow in the back of my mind. Not pressing fears, but more of a growing uncomfortableness with the fear that our diligence will wane and she'll end up one day back in the situation of falling into an A.

I think that may be the reason some of these triggers start popping up around years 4 & 5. By then the A has become the distant past. By this point, if you're still together and the marriage is good again, the A is no longer the daily or even weekly focus for either the BS or CS, and the CS has become more like their old selves again, it is setting the stage for a repeat performance. If not soon, eventually. You fear if you let your guard down, you'll get blindsided again. The triggers keep you on guard, even when you can't pinpoint a reason you need to be. After all, I think we've all heard of that happening, like it did for Blindsided. 5 or 6 years post-dday, the BS thinks all is good again and the danger is past, only to have it happen again. You hope the changes that were made and the steps to deal with the root causes have prevented that from happening, but what if it wasn't enough? What if the CS gets careless and allows themselves to go down that path again? As the BS thinks about it less and less and so is not on the constant lookout for signs of problems, there is the fear it will happen undetected again, especially since the CS now knows some things to avoid. Like if Gabi did end up in another affair, she'd know enough not to use her cell phone to call and text all the time, but would probably get a secret phone she'd leave in the van, since that is what tipped me off something was going on the first time. She would probably do her best to act normal around me instead of going sex-crazed and becoming a different person like she did the first time, knowing that would be a red flag to me. So it is likely a new affair would be more under the radar than it was last time.

I think we know much of this, if not directly thought about, it is in the back of our minds. The more the As fade into the past, the more we fear they'll be in our future. Because of that, we don't want to totally let them fade away. There is security in staying diligent and keeping it in front of us rather than forgetting and risk it happening again because we aren't paying attention to it any longer.

At least that's what I've been feeling. I have no reason to fear. Though Gabi has become more like her old self, she is not in some important ways, and I have no reason to think anything is going on between her and another man like before. It is more a fear of slowly forgetting and letting history repeat itself because we slacked off on diligence to boundaries and warning signs, and became comfortable that it wouldn't ever happen again. That we'd fixed it. After all, look how far we've come successfully. We've done good. Enough to write a book about it. I wanted to be comfortable again with our relationship, but now that I'm here, I fear becoming too comfortable with it. So with each sign that we are moving more in that direction, the greater that fear is it might happen again.

Sort of a catch 22. But one I think I'd have in any relationship at this point, whether with Gabi or someone new. I'd never be able to fully rest in the thought that the other person would never do that to me, and I would always feel a need to keep on guard. The triggers are really our mind's way of telling us you've let your guard down, time to ramp it back up. Sort of like the cry, "Remember the Alamo." Don't forget.

But Gabi knows I couldn't handle any repeat performances. Not that it would stop her if she became infatuated with someone again, but from my perspective, if everything we've done doesn't prevent it from happening again, I wouldn't hold out much hope that anything else would either. Another A would radically change our relationship. At a minimum, living as roommates and not husband and wife, at most, separation and divorce. Short of seeing some way forward, but that would be extremely difficult to find at that point.

So I'm content in the fact we seemed to have fixed it, and need to continue to fix it and not become satisfied with our progress to the point of neglect and taking it for granted again. If and when another shoe does drop, it won't be on me the consequences, it will be on her. And I can promise it will be a radically different response from me the second time around because I can't do what I did the first time and hope it will work when it apparently didn't. I'd only be enabling bad behavior at that point, which would be bad for both of us. The ball is fully in her court. Only in mine insomuch as I might do the same thing to her if I fail to do the same.

Sorry for the length. Didn't intend to write so much, but there you have it. I think I'd feel that way even if we'd divorced and I was remarried. 4 to 5 years past dday, I'd have the same fears, only with a different person. If Gabi could be married to me for over 38 years, say she's happy, and then have an affair, then anyone could do that to me at some point. Apparently the length of a successful happy, even if not perfect, marriage bears no relationship to the likelihood of an A happening. Some might even suggest the longer it goes, the greater the chance.

So what's a person to do? Avoid loving anyone? Not a good or healthy option. So you learn to take the risk and minimize it as much as possible even when you know, yes, it could happen to you again. You get back on the horse and deal with the fear of getting thrown again. That's what these 4-5+ year triggers are like to me. We are currently in our 5th year. May 11, 2016 will be our 5th year anniversary since dday.

When he seems too quiet, I start freaking out checking his phone again. I hate that. The holiday's and my hormones suck!

I know it was long, but your response was well formed, Cole.

It's not so much about my husband going back into old habits, but as you mentioned, the fear that he MIGHT and I won't notice, so if I just pay attention, then I'll KNOW and I won't be blindsided, or maybe, just maybe I can somehow stop it before things really get rolling. I know that to some extent, this is ridiculous. I will never, ever, ever, EVER be able to control his actions. He will do what he wants to do, and even if I'm hyper vigilant and find out about another infidelity immediately, it won't make it feel any less like being in a head on collision.

Also:
"There is security in staying diligent and keeping it in front of us rather than forgetting and risk it happening again because we aren't paying attention to it any longer."

Yes. Absolutely. And... though I am absolutely ashamed to admit it, part of me WANTS to keep flying a solidarity flag flying for the hurt me of the past. If I don't, it's almost feel like I'm betraying myself. There's no logic to it, but some part of me feels that if I let go completely, then I'm telling that little broken part of me that she doesn't matter and her hurt isn't important. I need to really find a way to get past that because it's NOT helpful. It's OK to hurt - and it's really OK to heal afterward, too.

"I think I'd feel that way even if we'd divorced and I was remarried."

I 100% agree with this. I knew I'd be taking my fears and hurt and frustrations and all the other broken pieces of me to a new relationship, so why let those broken parts be the only reasons NOT to reconcile? I would be just as likely to say to a new husband, "Who just text you? I'd like to see, please..." as I am to my current one, and the new one isn't even the one who cheated. I acknowledge that this junk is mine and not my husband's and not a dynamic of our marriage. I feel like I've been glued back together and healed to a reasonable facsimile of my old self, but there are fragile cracks that do show sometimes.

"You get back on the horse and deal with the fear of getting thrown again."

I wish I could embrace this sentiment 100% and apply it to all areas of disappointment and fear in my life, not just my marriage.

Your examples of ways that you and Gabi have progressed your relationship remind me of the progress that my husband and I have made, so thank you. Pre-A, I wouldn't have bothered to ask, "are we OK?" I knew we weren't, but I also know we were both too lazy and/or too worn down to bother trying to fix things. I knew he'd lie if I did ask, or, well, to be fair to him, it was more "appeasing me" than lying.

We don't fight anymore. Ever. I'm not exaggerating. We have conflicts on an every 20 minute schedule (practically) but we never, ever fight. We have gotten so good at problem solving and at brainstorming. He is so much better at taking me seriously and taking action when I point out something is amiss. I am so much better at keeping my emotions in check and calling a time out before things do get heated. It's not only a more pleasant and productive way of life, but it really does heighten our love for each other.

Ultimately, I am not sorry we have stayed together, but sometimes thoughts of the past still creep up and haunt me in ways that are frustratingly illogical. I know there's no logic to something so emotional as an affair and the devastation it causes, but my brain still wants to make sense of everything, even after all this time.

I am most disappointed in myself these days. It may be time to take up IC again and see if I can't work on my own garbage, cos when I look at my marriage, I feel bliss, but when I look at myself, I only feel disappointment.

And yes, CaliRN: Hormones (or hormones bottoming out... sigh) really DO suck. Why can't things just stay steady and stable?! I'm tired of being "crazy" 4-7 days a month. Yeesh.

Well alora if I had found out about the oc in the beginning, I think I might have left too. Somehow spending years suspecting an A and drifting further and further apart, then separating, all before dday, helped me decide to try. It was like a whole new man was in front of me. A humble one that was ready to move heaven and earth to work things out.

I was not suddenly blindsided, well except for the oc lol. It's hard to say what I would have done, I can only speculate.

I'm glad you're getting your vitamins. Maybe you could take walks during the brightest part of the day to absorb add much that way too. Last winter I combined b12 with my D and it helped. Also look into essential oils. I've recently gotten into them through "Young Living". So far I like what I have used (lavender and mint) and now waiting for my starter kit. They have oils fir everything. Mint to the back of the neck is great for hot flashes and lavender in the wrists and temples helps with sleep.

Anyway look them up. At the very least they can't hurt.

Who can say what any of us will do until we walk a path ourselves, Pink. I say it would be a deal breaker, but what do I know? I might have said that about the affair - before the affair.

And yeah... vit B12 deficient, too, though I've been able to move to oral supplements instead of the shots, so progress! I think? Maybe? I was looking into YL essential oils yesterday. Hah... I tapped your psychic line, lady! :) I was looking for a good Thieves Blend and diffuser/ionizer because we all keep getting coughs/colds/weird allergies and I thought it was just my daughter and I being genetic mutants, but then friends came and stayed with us and 2/3 of them had the same issues. Something's not right in this ole house of ours. *sigh*

(Hmm... wonder if that could be contributing to moody/moroseness, too?)

The starter kit has the diffuser but to get the better price (which is still high) you have to register as a distributor and for that they take your ss#. I decided to do it that way because I plan to do more with the oils as I learn more.

The few women I know do it swear by it. They love their diffuser and thieves. I'm ordering the all purpose cleaner. I feel like a kid at Christmas waiting for my kit.

You might have black mold. My son was sick for 2 years in a rental we lived in because of mold. My daughter had it in her room and was sick for months. Upper respirator, exhaustion, low grade fevers, croup and yes moody.

Get your house checked for mold. Try taking a few days vacation. Even just a hotel to escape the house and see if by day 3 you feel better.

Hm... guess who's husband is taking her away to the beach for 3 days for her birthday?

Yes - I'm spoiled. I mentioned mold to the property manager when we rented and she assured us the house had tested clean, but I didn't see any paperwork on it, so I was merely taking her on her word. It'll be worth looking into.