I know that it's a bumpy road as far as discussing the A goes. In the beginning, my H would always get to the point that he would get agitated and say "we're going to deal with this the rest of our lives". Early on I would tell him that I needed these talks in order to process the information which is exactly what I was trying to do. Slowly it got much easier for him to talk about it and we're at the point that I can ask a question and he will answer and then it gets dropped. A lot of the moving forward depended on my reaction to his answers.

Hopefully he'll realize that you WILL have good days and bad. Enjoy the good times but he has to suck it up to help you through those bad days.

Don't know about "After the Affair" but the Shirley Glass book was a godsend for us. We each have a copy and over a year out I still find myself going back to read it. Especially when the road gets rough.

I keep "after the affair" on the nightstand for reference. Wish my husband would read it.

He's in the dark about everything I am going through and what he's going through. Yorick would you talk to him?

Sure, but I'm as screwy as every other wayward on this site (just in my own way). W and I are still moving like two snails down a really long, long road. At least it's not a death march anymore ...

I can tell you all that it is a very hard road and when you think that the road has been repaved watch out, there are still a few bumps.
I think we did all the right things after DDay. I asked questions and H lied. Then when he realized that telling the truth was the right thing for the both of us he told nothing but the truth. Every time I asked he answered. Sometimes the answers were hard to hear but I am glad I asked the questions. It showed me that I could at least trust him to tell me the truth. We are continuing to talk but its still hard. I thought it was getting easier but then the past came back and now its back to hard again. I know its takes time. But all involved has to be willing to do the work before anything can try to work out.
If your H doesn't understand or see what he is doing then you will have to do something you might not want to do. Leave!
This is my second marriage. I stayed in my first marriage way to long because I wanted my kids to have two parents. I was very very unhappy. My parents taught me that you never give up when you are married. So I stayed. Then my sister said "if you are not happy then how do you aspect your children to be happy". I thought about it and she was right. I can do bad by myself, I don't need help. You have to remember, the decisions you make are for you and your children. He is only making decisions for him. Thats selfish. You have to do whats best for you and your children. It will take time to get past but you will make it. You are stronger then you think. As some has said. It make take something drastic for him to open his eyes.

Good Luck and God Bless.

MorganTX. One thing you do need to think about is that you cannot change other people, you can only change yourself. No matter how much you try to get your husband to feel the remorse you want him to feel you can't make him feel that way. He may just really not feel it which does not mean he does not love you, but that his emotions are quite different from yours. It may be that for your marriage to work that you have to accept that he is a poor communicator. I do feel great remorse at times for my affair, but other times the feeling is just not there, I just feel good and happy and really don't want to think about it. However, I understand my husband's need to bring it up and discuss it whenever he wants to, I undertand the triggers for him. I think it is easier for woman to do this and sometimes easier for them to communicate their remorse. Your husband just may not be able to. He also is not going to become a different person. He was probably much like he is now before the affair.

The main thing is that he is willing to promise not to do it again, that he is now committed to the relationship and that he knows you will never again accept this kind of betrayal from him. Then go on from there.

I don't think it is good for any relationship for one person to tell the other person that the sum of their happiness in life depends on the other. It is too great a burden for anyone. Also, that all your unhappiness in life is due to his having an affair. Is that really true? Were you always happy before? You can tell him that when you feel down, the affair comes in to your mind and makes you feel worse.

Ibex - you make some very good points and I always appreciate your comments which have been very helpful to me.

No, all my unhappiness is not due to the affair...but...well, it's hard to describe, but, the pain of the affair really does kind of wash over everything -- even the happy moments.

I am blessed with three healthy children, wonderful friends, I job I love and am good at -- so many good things...but often times the pain of the betrayal reduces all the good things to almost seeming non-existent.

Yes, he has promised not to betray me again, but, then, didn't he promise that the first time? When we got married?

And you are also right that he is the same person he was before the affair. But my needs and wants have changed. He changed them. We have this conversation all the time because he suffers at the idea that just being how he was before now suddenly isn't enough. But it's not.

Hugs,
Morgan

Morgan, Having great kids, a job you love, and friends does help so much. And I think I know what you mean about him just being what he was before is not enough. I have avoided making any promises to my husband because of what you said...I promised him before that I would not ever do what I did and I believed that promise when I made it. Now I feel like my promises are empty, all I can promise is what we have today and that I will try my best.

And when it really boils down, how much can we promise when we cannot see into the future. It sounds like you cannot promise your husband your future now because your feelings have changed. Is it possible for you to try and separate your change in needs and wants from the affair? I am not sure if this makes sense, but think of it like the affair happened, now it is over, now you feel differently. But stop blaming the affair for how you feel now, just think this is the way I feel now and how can I deal with it? Your husband cannot fix it and you cannot change him. The only thing you really can do is decide what direction you want to go and start working on heading that way, rather than trying to make him change.

I think I spent many years trying to 'change' my husband in our early years. Then I met OM and became friends and my feelings for him scared me because I felt like my marriage at that point was a little stressful at times because of my inability to deal with my husband's powerful personality, I think I felt a lack of control. Having a good marriage and loving family was so important to me that I realized I had to do something. I think I started to change myself. My expectations of my husband lowered, meaning I tried to accept him more for who he was, I became happier with what he could offer in our relationship and as a father, I filled in what he could not offer me in life myself, and I think I was nicer to my husband because I did feel guilty about having feelings for someone else. The end result of this was that our marriage became better and stronger.

Over that past years, despite my friendship with OM, my marriage has strengthened. That sounds crazy, but it is true. Now enter affair. When my husband wanted us to stay together and forgive me I kept thinking, how can he get over this? He has to live with the knowledge that I lied, I loved someone else, I slept with someone else, and the knowledge that these feelings I had were there for many years.

How can he be happy? How can he not want to punish me? How can he forgive me?

I think it all boils down to the fact that he loves me. He thinks that I am a good person who did a bad thing. He understands how and why these things happen. He does not want revenge.

When you say that it is not enough for your husband to be what he was before the affair this sounds like you want retribution. He owes you and must make it up to you. I think this feeling is understandable, but will not lead to harmony or healing. You have to love him for what he is and start with a fresh slate. He can't make it up to you and if you expect and are waiting for that you'll be disappointed.

Just try treating him like he is the love of your life. Treat him the way you think he would love to be treated. Treat yourself well, also, and spend time with your family and friends.

Ibex - I really appreciate your thoughtful reply. For me, it isn't so much as wanting retribution, it's really that my needs have changed.

I guess that before the A the fact that he was sort of emotionally unavailable, sometimes passive-agressive, and often times withholding...well, it wasn't such a big deal -- I mean it didn't make me unhappy in a big way. Sometimes in a small way, but we had so much happiness in our relationship that those shortcomings were not huge problems.

NOW...after the A, I can't be around him when he is closed off, emotionally shut down and withholding. The passive-agressive thing has gotten worse, because he is dealing with his own pain and agony in the aftermath of the A, and the shame hasn't somehow transformed him into the best version of himself -- if anything he struggles even more with the weight of the guilt and shame.

The A took so many of the positive things about our reltionship away: the fidelity of the marriage, the shared hopes and dreams, the feeling of safety, the feeling of being 'the one', of being special, the trust of intimacy and our sex life -- it's hard to explain, but with all the "good" reserves gone, it's harder to accept/deal with/be ok with the compromises and short comings.

Some days I can see the light and I feel like I can get thru it, I can see a path to happiness despite the past.

And some days, like today, I just hate my life and can't imagine how I got to this place.

I wish he would have just left me because it's the pain of the lies and betrayals that hurt the worst.

I wonder how your husband would respond to the 360 or 180 or whatever it's called. You are correct, you husband must come to terms with his mistake and move past it instead of hanging out in denial. The problem is, just like cheater's can't make the betrayed forgive us, you can't make him want to try agian. It's going to be esp. rough because you describe your husband as usually being emotionally withdrawn...

Anyways, the 360/180 is all about you withdrawing and sort of getting rid of some of the pressure from the situation while finding means of satisfying your needs independent of your spouse.

Regardless, the first year of rebuilding is hell. The fact that you see the light some days is a small blessing. With any luck, the next year will yield better gains in rebuilding.

lol You could always smash the television!

Thanks to all of you for your advice and support. He walked in when I was reading DS this morning and asked me if he could read what I was writing.

(He had made a DS account and posted a couple of times long ago but doens't really log on).

I said sure and handed him the computer. He read this whole thread, from the beginning and all the way through, then sat next to me AND SAID NOTHING. I swear I think he does it just because he knows how mad it makes me. So I look at my watch, and I refuse to be the one to give in and speak, because it's always my responsibility to get the healing on track, and I say nothing and he says nothing and on and on FOR TWENTY MINUTES.

I can't take it anymore, I say "I can't believe that you read all that and you have nothing to say to me - no comment, no feelings, no compassion?"

And he says "Well, it's really hard for me to read that."

As I have said many times before and always in my journal, IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM.

And I say "Wow, it would be nice for you to say something ABOUT ME and not always just to consider yourself and your own feelings."

And he basically changes the subject and moves on with his day.

That was hours ago and now the day is almost over here and of course he never brings it up or asks how I'm doing or circles back to finish the conversation. I just feel so alone when I am around him. It's weird because I actually feel better when I am really alone and he's not around. I feel less ignored then.

Morgan, it sounds like you need to lay down the law. Either your H is fulling invested in rebuilding, or he isn't. Your posts lately have been so back & forth. It's bad, you've turned a corner, it's bad again.

Don't let him string you along like this. He must choose and put himself into 100% effort at what you both need.

Yes, it would be really hard for him to read this thread. It should be. But he has to "man up" and face it. It's the only way.

Loving - yes, I think you are right. I think I probably have to just stumble through the holidays and then make him move out and see if that makes a difference in his consistency.

He doesn't understand or just doesn't want to face how he creates new hurt for me when he avoids me and ignores me.

On the other hand, if we don't end up together, I feel good that I tried EVERY SINGLE THING I COULD, and then tried again, and then tried again, before giving up on my children's opportunity to have an intact family.

And I also have all these good instances of when he has been so cruel to me -- I think that will help when I am having lonely nights and missing him and thinking that our relationship was better than it really is.

I love that you call it "man up" - you are totally right -- and he has been totally unable to do it. I saw it to him in different terms, because sometimes I refer to it as pulling his sword and having the courage to slay the dragon, but sadly, I end up saying to him over and over and over,

"Where is your sword?"