Are your kids over 18? Able to make legal decisions on their own? Can they decide to enter counseling, choose to not enter counseling, on their own? Have they chosen how they raise *their* kids? Are you a licensed clinician who can diagnose your own family against all ethics to the contrary about diagnosing one's self or family? Are you the ONLY parent these kids EVER saw or knew?

Those ar e my thoughts. B/c I hit 17-18 and I said, "Fuck you, you hate-filled bastard, I won't be you!" and granted, he'd just choked me half to death, but... *I* chose to not be my dad or sis. I was an adult. I fucked up a lot on the way (oh God forgive me, b/c I'm not sure I will). But my mom didn't make me all I am. My dad didn't, either. Nor my sister. Not even my cPTSD.

My *shame*, however?
Oh, that's run too much of the show, and as I push into my late 40s, I'm shamed by the shame... I'd forgive anyone else, and pretty much have. But I can't forgive *me*...

So there's my thoughts. By 25, I figure most people are able to decide quite a lot about who/what/how they'll be... They may never do so, or may never see they can, but if they *can* see it? Know they can, but choose otherwise? Tricky territory on "who to blame" there.

You had them in youth. Their adulthoods? Not so much in your control, IMO. And that's okay that they're not in your control. Don't let Adult Them be *your* doing, Arfie. They've had time and chances, right? Exposure to a world where therapy isn't a bad word and is encouraged? (E.g., America post-1980.) To know they don't have to be exactly the way their parents were/are/ etc.? I didn't get that. I rebelled. I was full of self-lotahing that I couldn't "fit in" as I was told to. Then this weird thing happened... My life sucked a lot less. I made a *choice*. A lot of choices. Mine be the consequences. Not my dad's or my sister's. My reactions to them shaped my choices, yes, but they didn't *make* those choices for me.

No idea if that made sense or even was remotely useful, but... puma support.

The biggest for sure in Arf World is that guilt is not the most logical emotion in the human genome.

All I can say that applies profoundly is what you already know, arf, that Alanon wisdom "let go and let God." It may be trite but it's true. It worked with kids all grown up now like you an me, it'll work with your grown kids, too.

True on the "Let Go and Let God" slogan. Think I am doing pretty well on that score. Maybe that is the same thing as self-forgiveness.

It was the most helpless feeling in the whole world knowing that I couldn't protect my son from the hell he went through.

When the whole world seemed to hate my son, I was the only one that remembered him as a helpless baby. I tried so hard. I tried so hard. I too, will live forever with the guilt.

He's doing well now. Is it because I did the right thing? Should I "expert" and save all the other kids? Or did I just get lucky? Hell, I don't know now, I sure didn't know then.

Gentle, gentle hugs for your sons. Your grandchildren. And for you.

Guilt is, indeed, independent of final outcome. What's a mere human to do?

Sorry Arf..I agree let go and let God. I've found blame and guilt just leaves me stuck. Yes our childhoods have lots to do with our decisions but there comes a time when everybody has to take full responsibility for their lives if they WANT change. Some stay suck in whatever unhealthy addictions until they want it and the best thing is take care of yourself so you can be there when they make the choice to change and support them. (coming from experience of having an only brother on Meth for a decade and thankfully now 11 yrs. clean). HUGS!!

Gentle hug sweetie.... I hate guilt and shame.... The worst bloody feelings ever!!.... I struggle with them a lot... I was brought up with them as a control stick and adult or not they still kick my butt too often... I haven't been in trauma therapy so that's part of it

I think the Serenity Prayer are also really wise words and often hard to achieve at least me.... I hope that you can find some peace of mind soon Arf..... I think that all of the advise is good.....Another hug......xo

Hugs

I did not mean to come across as I never suffer from blame and guilt anymore..Lawd knows I've got enough guilt lately bearing down on me but knowing it only keeps me stuck in life and not moving forward. They are two buggers for sure!

The places I have been able to achieve self-forgiveness are the places I have known healing liberation beyond compare. It is hard to define, much less achieve, but it really does set me free.