Only you will know when you are ready to leave or not. There is no only your timetable, no one else's.

I recommend ignoring nice/mean behavior and try to focus on manipulative/normal behavior because that is what abuse is really about.

"Sorry for being sarcastic."

as far as i'm concerned, you're not being sarcastic ENOUGH! especially when the therapist tried to convince you that sex drive is a young girl's game and you should part with yours gracefully. i have been in the same spot with bad therapists who want to teach you how to lay down with less because they are not strong enough to pull you up.

"are YOU what it looks like to be sexless for 20 years because i don't want any part of that noise" you could say, storming from their office, your long scarf whipped around your neck with flourish.

rosehip don't believe the hype. don't believe anyone that tells you to settle, be quiet or avert your eyes. don't believe any hype, here or anywhere, that doesn't ring true and loud and happily in your belly like god's own ice cream truck. don't believe anything that is not your truth and if you don't know what your truth is try on a bunch of other truths like little black dresses until you find the one that accentuates your assets and propels you down the red carpet.

if coming here for you is like truth window shopping, challenging us to find a new angle or better lighting as you turn in front of the mirror, then you have my promise i will keep running into the storeroom to find you designer labels until you find the right one. and you'll know it's the right one because you will have tried on all the others, and the right one will feel so right you won't remember what it felt like to wear anything else. and i will never tell you to stop coming to the store, and i will never tell you i'm sick of offering you different dresses. shop at vernacular's! open 24 hours.

We could never get sick about anything about you, and you add a lot of support for people, and I know I for one will support you back in the best way I know how to, based on my own experiences and perspectives. That is all, in good conscience I can do. I'll always tell you what I really think, or anyone on here, but I also could always be wrong-it's just my own thoughts. I also think when someone comes somewhere like this support group, they are looking for answers, they are looking for different perspectives-they are ready to at least hear that. So I give that to them-how gently or disguised depends on the person I'm writing to. You are a deep thinker-so you for I just lay my thoughts out there for you to chew on. I think that some therapists invalidated what you have gone through in that way is a travesty, and an injustice. It actually REALLY pisses me off! It sounds like they had an agenda instead of your best interests at heart, which IMHO is an abuse of power, and pretty scummy. I have a lot more I could say on that, but it's just a tirade, and I it sounds like you share some of those opinions already. Vern is right, as well as witty, you can be mad about that-no reason to apologize for your sarcasm, 'cause I'm with you on that one! You have a right to every single one of your feelings-and don't let ANYONE tell you any different. It is not selfish, or "bad" to feel anything you want, from hurt, to anger, to hope. The only thing I can related your situation to is mine, and I chose to stay married every moment for 15 years, for a variety of reasons that changed over time. Although it may seem like I sit in judgment because I urge people to leave abusers I really do get why people are in their relationships, why they make that choice. I lived it, day in day out for roughly 5,475 days in a row over those last 15 years. I just got to the point that I thought about the end of my life, and imagined the desperation, the pain, the deep despair I would feel looking back and knowing my days were numbered and I couldn't go back and live a better life. I imagined what it would FEEL like to know I had one shot at life on this earth and I wasted it, and there was nothing-i-could-do-about-that-anymore. I'd already wasted my youth I didn't want to waste anymore of my life. That's just my story. That's my truth.

Only you can answer
questions of staying,
leaving, and if so,
when.

Re: your therapists. . . .

Oy vey.


If you want to see
good in an iffy
relationship,
it's your prerogative.
In my opinion, a
questionable relationship
is exactly the one that
needs to be challenged.

If someone is genuinely
a "former" abuser, than
challenging them will
reveal whether their
change is
genuinely genuine.

In any case, that's my
position.

Regarding whether any
particular member is
sick and tired of
what you contribute
to this forum. . . . I
for one, am not
sick and tired.
I can't speak for
anyone else, except
to say that this is a
wonderful, inclusive,
compassionate
community.

Keep on keepin' on.

If your partner is a
former abuser. . .
hallejujah!!!!!!

If he's not, you'll
know soon enough.

And yes, I agree. . .
life is short. Every
passing day makes
that increasingly vivid.

Please take good care.

Sending you hugs
and wishes for
all good things.

rosehip, I'm so sorry. I can't tell you how many therapists I went thru before I found the right ones. I was inspired to write an essay about it because of the responses were just too unbelievable!s!

Please don't stop looking for the right therapist. The good ones are out there. You can ask for an 'interview' where you interview them. Ask about their credentials and ESPECIALLY ask them what makes them qualified (above and beyond the required college courses) to treat clients who come from abusive environments. Ask them what modalities they use to treat trauma and PTSD. If they say talk therapy and CBT and nothing more, then RUN, don't walk to the nearest exit.

Sadly, hope will not bring you a safer, calmer, abuse free future.

There's a reason your buttons are pushed. It's because he is an abuser.

There's a reason why you are having trouble balancing yourself on the tightrope of the current ok (which won't last 999,999,999 out of 1,000,000,000 times) and the past bad the the future hope for better (that will never come). It's because you're with an abuser living in a toxic environment.

There's a reason why the therapists tell you to get in the mood, that you're at an age where it doesn't matter so much (BULLSHIT!) or that you need to find the good in him and the marriage! The reason is they haven't a freakin clue about the dynamics of abuse and how it affects people.

Another thing I discovered about therapy is that as long as you go to therapy while in the toxic abusive relationship, it will not do much more than help you survive (as long as the abuser doesn't kill you).

On the other hand, once you leave and stay gone, your therapy will progress from barely surviving to recovering and thriving!

~hugs~

Oh, you are not crazy and no one here would say you are annoying us because we've all been there or are there where you are now in one way or another.
I have been going back and forth with my own personal dumbaxx for nearly a decade now. It was only in the last few months that it's really dawned on me that he was emotionally abusive- because the cycling in and out of good and bad times, sweet and abusive times are all part of the cycle of abuse- and you are so confused and bungled up in your own reality you don't know what the real truth is anymore. BE more compassionate to yourself- this is hard for me too- I could've left 10 years ago, be married to some dream man with more babies and living a wonderful life- maybe, if, woulda coulda shoulda- but it didn't happen- I stayed and this is my fate and my destiny- this moment and what happens from here on out.
Set boundaries and stick to them, you are no longer a victim and you have the power to stand up for your truth now that your eyes are open- listen to your heart and head- not to his words. I find that my H talks a good talk- but doesn't always follow it up with action. I went to multiple therapists, and we went to three marriage counselors and NONE of them saw who he really was or what he was doing to me- it's crazy- and finally I found a therapist who was emotionally abused herself and is happily single now, and he has a therapist who is all for keeping marriages going- so maybe- if he really wants to change now, he has the opportunity- but he has to walk the walk and talk the talk or I'm ready to move on- and you have to make those decisions too- how much will you deal with, what is the bottom line, when will you know it's okay or it's over?
It's complicated, relationships can be so rewarding but also the worst things in your life- right? Give yourself a break, relax, take it slow, focus on your feelings and intuition and self care.

What vern said.

And, find a new therapist. holy crap!

Oh, as far as what therapists told me, how about this for gashlghting, Vern:

"people have unreasonable expectations"...as far as relationships

"the grass isn't greener on the other side", ok, thanks b*@!h, telling that to someone who was abused! So, are you telling me that this is as good as it gets?

"all relationships experience hardships and betrayal"

"you are completely normal for not feeling any sexual desire and just escaping into your own world"

"you know, you really don't have it that bad, if you only knew some of the stories I hear here", from the counselor at the women' center

"we grow the most in relationships", when bringing up leaving

"to heal, we have to have the ability to forgive"

"people have unreasonable expectations"...as far as relationships

IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO EXPECT NOT TO BE ABUSED, AND TO HAVE A PARTNER WHO IS CAPABLE OF MEETING THE NON-NEGOTIABLE NEEDS ONE HAS TO BE A HAPPY FULFILLED INDIVIDUAL. NO ONE GETS MARRIED FOR LIFE EXPECTING TO BE A MISERABLE, GHOST OF A PERSON-THAT IS RIDICULOUS!

"the grass isn't greener on the other side", ok, thanks b*@!h, telling that to someone who was abused! So, are you telling me that this is as good as it gets?

YOU SAID IT GIRL! COMPLETELY USELESS COMMENT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES

"all relationships experience hardships and betrayal"

ABUSE IS NOT YOUR AVERAGE RELATIONSHIP HARDSHIP-AND BETRAYAL, THAT'S PUSHING IT-ONLY POSSIBLY IN THE BROADEST POSSIBLE SENSE OF THE WORD-BUT IN MY FAIRLY NORMAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MY BF NO "BETRAYAL" IS GOING ON HERE SO THAT'S A BUNCH OF CRAP TOO AND OUR HARDSHIPS ARE CAUSED MY LIFE STRESS ON OUR RELATIONSHIP-NOT BY OUR RELATIONSHIP ITSELF!

"you are completely normal for not feeling any sexual desire and just escaping into your own world"

ESCAPE IS NOT NORMAL, IT'S DUE TO DISTRESS, AND ALTHOUGH EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT SEXUAL NEEDS, IF YOU FEEL DISTRESSED BY A LACK OF SEX IN YOUR LIFE CLEARLY THIS IS NOT NORMAL, WHAT IS NORMAL FOR US DOES NOT CAUSE US DISTRESS

"you know, you really don't have it that bad, if you only knew some of the stories I hear here", from the counselor at the women' center

BS, BS, BS! HOW DARE SOMEONE SAY SOMEONE ELSE'S PAIN IS WORSE THAN YOUR PAIN! PAIN, IS PAIN, IS PAIN, TRAUMA IS INDIVIDUAL AND RELATIVE! YOUR PAIN IS UNACCEPTABLE TO YOU AND FEELS JUST AS REAL AS ANYONE ELSE'S!

"we grow the most in relationships", when bringing up leaving

NOT IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS-THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE! THIS IS WHY THEY ARE NOT OKAY EVEN FOR SOMEONE WILLING TO ACCEPT THEM! SO MUCH STIFLED POTENTIAL!

"to heal, we have to have the ability to forgive"

HOW I HATE THIS INTERPRETATION OF FORGIVENESS! OVERSIMPLIFIED, SELF DEMEANING INTERPRETATION-FORGIVENESS IS FOR THE PERSON WHO GIVES IT-NOT FOR THE ONE RECEIVING IT. IT IS A PROCESS THAT MUST BE WORKED UP TO, NOT SOMETHING THAT IS BESTOWED ON SOMEONE LIKE A QUEEN GRANTING A KNIGHTHOOD! AND IT IN NO WAY EXCUSES WHAT SOMEONE ELSE DID OR GIVES THEM A PASS-IT JUST ALLOWS THE PERSON DOING THE FORGIVING TO LET GO OF FEELINGS THAT CREATE A NEGATIVE ENERGY-BUT FIRST THOSE FEELINGS MUST BE ACKNOWLEDGED, AND VALIDATED, AND FULLY FELT. NEGATIVE FEELINGS ARE LIKE THE HYDRA-YOU CUT OFF THE HEAD AND 3 MORE GROWN IN IT'S PLACE-THEY MUST BE DRAGGED OUT INTO THE LIGHT TO BE KILLED OR TRUE FORGIVENESS CAN'T BE GIVEN

It is clear that you did not feel validated by your experiences in therapy. I'm very sorry that was your experience. All therapy is not like that. How you feel matters.

Wow, Can't :-), I needed to hear this.
And you know what the really sucky thing is? I would make myself love him, if I could, but it doesn't work! What my therapists, our circle of friends, our family, society is expecting me is a herculean task!!! Even I am expecting myself to do that. And that is: erase 19 years form my memory and be able to look at him again with an innocent loving heart. I'm sorry, but that thing is just not possible anymore, it has been compromised, and not by me!!! Yet, I am to undo it. Well, I JUST CAN'T! I'm trying my garnets, go through the notions, and maybe, I will stick around in my marriage, but...this is why I have no sex drive...this is why I have no sex drive...this is why I rather hide away behind my books...this is why I always volunteer for all the family and kids related chores (to keep myself busy and not having to spend time with him)...this is why I daydream about times when he has to go and travel and I can be without him. Every day I stay in my marriage is just so much work...I know that I will leave one day, I just don't know when that day will be. I ACTUALLY TRIED TO HOOK HIM UP WITH ONE OF HIS OLD GIRLFRIENDS! But he is actually the most devoted and faithful husband...in a kinda co-dependent way. Possessive kinda way, he ha son buddies, just me. Wow, lots of things came out of me...

I'm in the same place trying to make myself get excited about trying to make it work. He's been gone for a few weeks and we had a couple of exciting weeks when we sexted and flirted and were loving and had sex more that we had the whole previous year- we talked and cried and talked and I've been trying to convince myself this is our last shot, that we deserve it- that I do love him, but that I just need the same love back- and he's already pulling back, being distant, throwing fits, acting like an ass- and he says that he can't just change all of a sudden- he has work to do- and I want to give him time to do that- but every time I have to put up with some of his bullcrap I wonder why I'm trying so hard- and I realized that all of the good stuff was initiated by me- I busted my butt to make things exciting and new and he just reaped the benefits-
It's so hard and so confusing. I am reading the Verbally Abusive Relationship and it's pretty good- my therapist recommended it- and the thing that really makes me "get it" is that the book says that we are expecting our guys to treat us like we would treat them- to think our way, to be like us- to have the same values and goals- but they don't- they aren't living in the same reality- it's like a squirrel trying to make love to a raccoon- it doesn't work because they're so different. Now, what makes it so confusing is that they are capable of moments of kindness, sweetness, being loving- but ultimately their words don't match their actions and we're left with this feeling of what the hell is going on, confusion, craziness, because we're trying to figure out why they are doing what they're doing- is it me, is it the way I look, act, talk, or walk- why is it so hard? But we can't figure them out- they will never let us in to be close enough to see who they really are- so our intuition that something isn't right- is the truth- the real heart of the matter- and it isn't something we can figure out, because we're a squirrel and they're a raccoon. It's not even about being men and women- there are good decent caring loving guys out there- but not the guys who are tearing us apart.
I know all of this and yet I still hope he is capable of change, that his therapist has some magic, that our separation with change his heart- but realistically it's unlikely. I haven't called him in four days- and so I haven't heard from him. I don't exist unless I'm bending over backwards to please and cater to him- it is freaking exhausting.

I have heard every one of those from therapists... including the current one. How do they feel they can advise abuse victims when they have NO freaking idea!! I am just sick and tired... mostly of my own issues but never of hearing your issues (or anyone elses)
warm gentle hugs.
oh and i third or fourth or fifth vern lol

Those things that came out of you-they are there all along. They are part of you. Those expectations are grossly unfair and you have every right to feel angry that they are being forced on you. You are have been abused, your basic human rights for respect, psychological and physical safety and dignity have been trampled on, spit on, and set on fire. And someone has the gall to tell you that you are just supposed to pretend like it never happened!

Those things HAPPENED, and they happened to you, and they never should have happened to you or to anyone. And wishing and willing them away, for the sake of everyone around you does not erase that pain, and that injustice and all those feelings! YOU matter too. You are not some vessel to carry the responsibilities of everyone else's regrets, and desires, and denial. You do not exist just to make life easier for everyone else. You are a unique individual who deserves just as much as anyone else a shot a some happiness and fulfillment, to reach your own potential.

You can find peace, and happiness, and not feel like your killing yourself for NOTHINGNESS. It is a process, and a journey, and I don't know what the journey entails for you, but it doesn't include what you've been sold. It doesn't include this soul numbing pretense.

I hear some anger, maybe for the first time, in your posts. You have a right to that anger. It does not mean you are a bad person-it means you're still alive. And under that layer of anger, there is pain, and hurt, and loneliness, and sadness and fear. And all of that, as terrifying as it is, is perfectly okay too. Because under all those layers is true healing, is true release, is catharsis.

Ok I am not posting anything I am just here in my corner listening to all of you drinking my caramel machiato Tall. and smiling and nodding.
I can't relate to this, but I can be supportive.

Rosehipcreek Hugs!!!!!