I'm so sorry you both are having to live like this.

Children learn what they live. They grow up thinking whatever is happening in their family of origin is normal. This is all done sub/unconsciously.

There have been many studies done, starting w/children only witness abuse and what they found was not only did the children learn it was ok to abuse and be abused, they also discovered that just witnessing abuse can cause the hippocampus to shrink as much as 20%!!!

This is the part of the brain that dates & time stamps events so when someone has PTSD (and yes children get it too) they cannot distinguish the real event that happened in the past from the current 'trigger' event.

With the right kind of therapy with a QUALIFIED counselor who has special additional training in recovery from trauma, abuse & PTSD, it will get better for both of you. HOWEVER, the longer you both are exposed to the abuse, the longer it will take to heal.

It will NOT go away just by leaving the abuser. And it will probably NOT go away if you stay w/the abuser even if he gets the right kind of counseling.

I have seen the damage it does to children who don't get the right kind of therapy as they grow up and become adults. It is heart breaking.

"anger management" counseling isn't going to get to the core of the abuse triggers. It's more like a band aid trying to stop a gushing artery.

It is critical that the therapist be trained in the dynamics of abuse as well as recovery. Talk therapy alone will not do that much good and it will certainly mean one stays in therapy a lot longer. I highly recommend heart centered hypnosis for both of you. But you each need individual sessions.

Sending you healing hugs...

How were your kids affected by the abuse?

Were they aware of it? How much did they understand about it?

Did they copy your behaviors or your spouses behaviors?

Do they think your abuser is this fantastic person? Are they buying her/her crap?

The other day my 12 year old said, "he throws tantrums like a child and I'm tired of it." Its frustrating because I did not want to foster disrespect for her father, but she was right and I told her as much.


Thank you MTC. My husband is not physically abusive, he is very subtle (definitely emotionally abusive), so I'm not entirely sure how my son interprets what he does pick up on.

In fact, I think my children will be very mad at me when I leave. I don't think they will have any idea why I don't want to be married to him.

This is very hard for me to explain to adults I know, who just don't get it.

Tangelo, I didn't have a clue that he was abusive until after I left. I stayed for almost 40 years. I was miserable for most of them, but I didn't know any better because of how I grew up. I always tell people that children in abusive environments will grow up thinking that its ok to abuse and be abused. What I haven't thought to say is that most of us/them don't know that what we're experiencing is abuse!

I doubt I know the full extent of how the abuse affected my kids, but I can see some of the effects in terms of their relationships & other behaviors. I don't believe that even now they truly understand what they experienced was abuse. I mean really, who can fathom that a parent who supposedly loves them (and tells them how much they love them) could be capable of abuse. Denial is a huge part of the affects of abuse. I also see it in how they react to stress & interact with others.

They copied both of our behaviors. It was very dysfunctional. I was the one who always tried to find help and thought it was all me and took all the responsibility. So I have to say I was as dysfunctional as he was, just in different ways.

EVERYONE, including me thought he was this fantastic person. His abuse was very subtle/covert. OMG, I thought I was totally crazy. I almost didn't go back to school because I could barely remember my own name!!!! He was never ever outwardly abusive to me in public.

When I left, my kids were grown and married w/kids. At the time I left, I still thought it was my fault except that he was an alcoholic and I wasn't taking responsibility for that. He was quite good at convincing everyone that I was the bad guy. I robbed him blind in the settlement (if you call 50/50 financial split & me leaving 90% of the material assets robbing him blind). He made up stories about me that they believed. Thankfully there was one in-law that saw thru it and let me know it.

I chose to not try and fight it. I knew that at some point he would 'slip' and they would see more clearly. And it happened. But it took a good long while.

I didn't realize how physically abusive the ex was the kids and to a lesser extent me. And that is what I feel the most guilt/shame and regret about.

The kids may be mad. But anger is usually a 'blanket' emotion that covers up other emotions like scared and sad and hurt. Please get them into therapy as soon as you can after you leave.

You're right, it is very hard to explain to adults, most of whom don't understand. I believe that it's not so much about understanding as it is about denial and them being triggered and having to look at their own lives when they don't want to or are too scared to.

That is why it is so important to find a therapist who has specialized training over and above what they got in college and/or needed to get for their license. The other issue w/therapists is that many of them come from dysfunctional situations as well and they really want to help people, but they don't do their own work. I can't tell you how may therapists I've seen over the last 4 decades and of them only two....TWO were/are trained in the dynamics of abuse and recovery from abuse, trauma & PTSD. My training has taught me that to be an effective therapist or anything else, one MUST do their own work and this particular institution demands/requires students to do their work.

I want to say one more thing about children being mad at us. If you don't remember anything else, remember this.

YOU ARE THE SAFE ONE!!!! and THEY KNOW IT. You are the one they can take their emotions out on. It's not fair, but they KNOW you will not hurt them or leave them or stop loving them. And believe me, it does pay off. I did take the high road and not say bad things about the ex to them. IF they asked questions, I answered honestly. They have since seen his 'other side' and I believe they understand that it's never quite the way they were led to believe.

I hope this helps just a little.

Great advice here. I thought my kids didn't notice the abuse. I and my daughters lived in denial. My son was unable to do that and didn't play by the rules. He saw my stbx for the bully he was and is, and was terrified of becoming "an angry and bitter man like dad". Things got so bad for him in his senior year in high school last year that I finally separated from my stbx. We all needed a break. Now, my son and I live at home, and he is getting better every day. The dark cloud has lifted. Our life is lived in honesty. Granted, his emotions are now shut down, but it is an emotionally safe place to live and to grow now, and that would have been impossible before.

Tangelo, I've noticed my 5-year-old starting to emulate my husband, too. He idolizes my husband. He's become increasingly disrespectful to me, and he's having trouble in school. He's a great kid, as I'm sure your son is too, but I'm concerned that this could be the beginning of something much worse if I don't address this soon. I didn't think my kids were noticing it, either. I'm beginning to believe I was wrong.

I cannot thank you all enough for this thread. My oldest, the 5-year-old, has Aspergers. My biggest concern as I prepare to leave has been that this is going to disrupt his routine. As I said, he idolizes his father. It's going to upset him when we separate, but, based on what you all are saying, there is a good chance that this environment is contributing to his symptoms. Some of them may not even be associated with autism. I've spent so much time worrying that this move would put him back in the progress he has made, but maybe it will actually help him.

Thanks to another thread, I used the search tool on Psychology Today to find a qualified counselor. Little did I know, there is actually an entire practice near me dedicated to treating victims of domestic abuse. Once we're out, I will take my kids there.

My question, and a huge source of worry for me, is, will it be safe for them to be with my husband without me present, as in when they stay with him as part of the custody agreement? If I get them counseling, will I need to keep them away from him?

Thank you everyone for your responses!

MTC: I understand feeling regret, but please do not feel guilt or shame. He is the idiot that did this. It is not your fault.

Im finding people in my life that have pretty functional lives still dont get emotional abuse. Its such an invisible, twisted, complex thing.
There are times I even question myself and then I come here

About the children knowing I am the safe one: you are totally right about that! They know I am the sane one too.

Rosiekins: Your son is brilliant I am so glad to hear he is doing better and I think he will get better given the chance.

Clm08: Glad we could be of help. Im also glad to know I am not alone. I have no idea what being with his dad will do for your son or if there is anything you can even do about it. It is a very good question to ask your abuse counselor, they usually have great advice about that and other legal matters.

clm08, since you have access to a practice that specializes in treating abuse victims, you might consider having your child evaluated. Depending on the outcome, you might be able to use that to ask the courts to require supervised visits for your husband. You need to document how the abuse has affected both you and your child. And tell them how concerned you are because he is already emulating your husband's abusive behavior.

Okay, I'm taking a deep breath right now because I'm going to share my experiences if they might help someone-this will be long.

When my daughter was young her father was a decent father. I was the primary caregiver. I was the one who took her to the doctor, went to parent teacher conferences, knew her friend's parents, went on field trips-all that kind of thing. My ex was not abusive towards her-just kind of permissive and neglectful in his parenting style. But he loved being a dad, was proud of her. She was a great kid, complaint, quirky, smart, cheerful lots of reasons to be proud. The abuse was directed at me. I didn't think about how much she was aware of or how it effected her because I didn't know I was being abused.

The abuse was directed at me until she started gaining the autonomy that comes with early adolescence, at which time it also became clear she was aware that things were not right. My ex started doing what he did to me to a lessor extent, not validating her feelings, ideas, interests as she started to develop her own separate identity. He started being controlling about certain things like her weight, and appearance. He never wanted to talk about normal, teenage girl transitions, like her starting to notice boys,or getting her period-it was like he just wanted to deny it was happening. That is the time when she said at one point (and I don't remember what he was doing at the time-but it wasn't one of his rages, so probably some kind of verbal abuse) "I can't believe mom hasn't divorced you yet." There was another time I was stirring a batter for cake and like always he was telling me I was doing it wrong, as was standing behind me directing me on how to do it correctly and she said "Mom doesn't need you to tell her how to do everything." That is when I went from thinking I was resolved to my situation to thinking I needed to GET OUT.

When I divorced him he used a form of abuse I believe is parentification. It is also called emotional incest. This is when the parent uses the child as a surrogate for the lost spouse in ways not physical, but relying on the child to take care of their emotional and practical needs. He told her about his feelings about me, and all of the things he thought I was lacking as a parent, he told her about his job frustrations and money worries, and did the same neglect/criticism/control that characterized most of his more covert abuse of both her and me (of course there was not so-covert abuse just for yours truly as well). Although there were some blow ups that I know of as well towards her. She began, over time, going from being angry at me for leaving, at feeling frustrated, depressed guilty and trapped from him.

At this time I tried co-parenting, parallel parenting, getting her into counseling-everything was undermined and met with more abuse from him. She switched households every two weeks, and so I had the added torture of living close by my abuser. He never needed to stalk me like a normal stalker does-because he had a reasons to show up at my house, to go to my grocery store, my bank. I thought about fighting for sole custody-but in my state sole custody is granted in only the most sever of circumstances. I mean, I know people personally who spent thousands and thousands on lawyers to get their kids away from exes who were drug users, or living with convicted pedophile family members to still come out, years later, to have joint custody still granted. I honestly did not think I had much of a chance of getting a different outcome, especially with no physical abuse present. Sometimes I think if I had fought for it the situation may been better-but it just as likely could have been worse.

Children who come from abusive environments studies show are linked to all kinds of psychological issues-so please take notice if the more subtle forms of abuse are being used on your children-because they probably are.

You may notice things like problems sleeping, depression, anxiety, anger issues, difficulty concentrating or trouble in school, issues with self esteem. We may think to ourselves "How wonderful Jenny is defending me against her father, or look how good Johnny is at mediating problems." But when you look deeper you may find a child whose learned to stuff their feelings, and a child feeling like they should be protecting their parent-is totally backyards-we are supposed to be protecting them, not the other way. That kind of responsibility can mar a child's development, which we are supposed to be shepherding. They are learning to take care of others without learning to take care of themselves-leaving them open to abuse. And then there's the modeling-which is the surface stuff we see, all the bad behaviors, or self centered actions, or saying something hurtful followed up by "Just jokin.'" Where you're seeing those things you can be there's more underneath. I see it in who my daughter is attracted her, her attachment style-the whole, I want closeness but I'm terrified of what male closeness means....

MTC talked about the damage to the hippocampus. This damage can occur due to even low levels of constant stress. The hippocampus is the part of the brain-in short-responsible for taking environmental stimuli and determining a threat-releasing hormones responsible for fight or flight. Structural abnormalities in the hippocampus have been linked to numerous mental health issues such as PTSD, anxiety disorders, even schizophrenia. Since children's brains are undergoing rapid development-just imagine what even being in an abusive environment where everyone "walks on eggshells" could do.

Well, I have a pretty good idea. At 16 my daughter was diagnosed as schizoaffective-a disorder which is the love child of schizophrenia and bipolar. And although there is a genetic component, AND she experienced another trauma (meaning not my abusive ex husband) I can't help but believe that the abusive environment played a roll as well. MANY of her delusions and paranoia, were surrounding her father.

In my opinion, there may be resilient children who truly do not feel the effects of being in abusive environments, but studies certainly show they contribute to many long term issues for many others.

But ask me if I regret leaving, and I say NO WAY! I have been able to heal myself to be a better parent myself, I have addressed a lot of issues for her that needed to be addressed and am working on others, she's seen healthy behaviors modeled, she's had a save haven away from her dad. None of that would have been possible if I'd never left-and God only knows how much worse it could have been.

Wow! Can't, thank you for writing that. Soooo insightful!! And so true for my kids too! Tangelo, this may be true for you: I have a few photos of my son with dad when he was really small. It is astounding to see how he is copying exactly what his dad is doing in the photo. One is playing a guitar (and Josh had a ukulele) and the fingering on the strings was EXACT! Josh was maybe 2 or 3!!! And another was measuring something with a ruler. All 3 kids were in the photo but he was EXACTLY modeling dad's fingers on the ruler. He soaked up every bit of dad, the good, the bad, the ugly!!! My son is diagnosed with bipolar and has huge anger issues and a fight or flight response to things. On another note, I was with my daughter last night (age 23) and as we left a store and I was paying, she reached up and started picking dust or hair off of my coat. My twin girls seemed like they suffered less, but everything Can't said is true about the protective and other roles they had to play as kids. Now that daughter always has to "improve me" or correct me or censor me, or evaluate me in so many ways....just like my stbx. So they all pick up on stuff. As far as worrying about leaving your son unsupervised with dad, the advice here is great...and u r so smart to go straight to domestic violence related counselors. I often worried about the same thing re unsupervised visits. But get their help in deciding what to do. Staying just made my son's life unbearable to the point we were afraid he could have become suicidal, and he is doing so great now relatively speaking but definately has many years of distress to overcome and not out of the woods by any means.
We feel your concerns. (hugs))

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. I know it can be difficult talking about our children. The insight you've all provided has been invaluable. I always just assumed that my boys weren't affected, but since I've been on here, I've taken a step back to evaluate the situation. I'm not sure I would have been able to look at this so objectively without help from all of you. Thank you!