I thoroughly understand what you are saying.

My therapist suggested exactly that when she asked me "what if this is his gift to you?" At first I thought she was totally nuts, but the more I move forward on my spiritual path, the more I think that it just might be a possibility. Have you read Little Soul & the Sun by Neal Donald Walsh (author of Conversations with God)? The story is about exactly what you propose.

After three years of therapy, I surprisingly found myself feeling gratitude for my abusers.

And yes, I did walk away and stay away. I only came to these conclusions after leaving. I believe who/what ever is the creator, source, higher power, god, etc. that s/he wouldn't want us to stay where we were being hurt.

Another thought, along the same lines as the abuser is here to serve a purpose for us, I believe we are here to serve a purpose for them too.

What you posit also gives us the space to begin to look within and take our power back and improve our lives because we no longer see ourselves as victims but powerful human beings who make choices and walk our own paths.

Here's the link to the story that someone posted online.
http://www.sapphyr.net/largegems/littlesoul-thesun.htm

MTC, that sounds very "celestine prophecy" (don't you know if you'v read it) or Richard Bachian kind of ideas, Johnathan Livingston Seagull and Illusions.

I think there is a lot of value and healing in forgiveness and finding meaning in negative circumstances, positive psychology and all of that kind of thinking. At the same time one must be very careful that one is not using such thinking as avoidance, that it's not a too often relied on defense mechanism of intellectualziation, that it's not used as boot that allows one to crush down emotions one doesn't want to deal with. I'm not singling out anyone so much as myself. Been there, done that. It doesn't help me UNLESS I deal with other things first, or too. I think how helpful this sort of thinking is depends on where one is in their journey, and how one "applies" is for a lack of a better word, to their lives. Philosophical thinking is so healing in a certain context, and in another context it becomes limiting and constrictive. That's just what I think as it relates to me-and may be someone else reading this.

Yes, cant, it does and I read those books. I was a bit surprised to find out that Neal Donald Walsh was the one to write Little Soul and the Sun. I had read conversations with God a long time ago and maybe I wasn't open to different ideas and missed something in that book.

Cant, you bring up some really good points. I completely agree with what you said about not using things/ideas/philosophies and even forgiveness to crush down emotions. It took three years of intense therapy just to get to the place where I could feel compassion and a semblance of forgiveness and feel any gratitude for my abuser. I am certainly not all the way there yet. But I do know if he had stopped or even backed off some, I would still be with him and certainly not where I am today. So I am grateful because I am in a much better place in my life.

And just to add another few cents worth here, I don't think forgiving means we forget or even turn the other cheek. I may get lambasted for saying it doesn't mean turning the other cheek, but IMHO, a loving god/creator/etc. would not want us to subject ourselves to continued abuse because abuse isn't love and the god/creator I know is all about love.

I can see what you mean, rosehip and MTC, especially about the taking away knowledge and having insight that you otherwise wouldn't have. I definitely feel that already - just look at us all on here, discussing things we understand that we probably couldn't tell others in the outside world, because they wouldn't "get" us, or abuse.

The problem I have is that one of my abusers actually used the idea of "destiny" to abuse me. One of his sayings was that we were meant for each other - meaning that I was meant to end up with him and it was my lot in life to be treated worse than a dog. I have had to move heaven and earth to get away from that belief, which is the good thing we are talking about here. I don`t have it any more. But I don`t want it back.

I still want it acknowledged that what he did - what ALL of them did - was wrong, and that they chose to do it. Full responsibility. If destiny is applied there, it seems to clash with the responsibility I want my abusers to take, and which every one of them has done their level best to avoid taking. If the abuser who used destiny as a reason to me read this, he would say, "See? I told you I was right." It would give him a pass, along with all the others.

So, it`s sort of a dilemma for me personally. Although I certainly agree that we do have knowledge that those who haven't gone through abuse could never have, both about ourselves and about what goes on between people. That is an important thing, because we are the ones who can help others and circulate awareness.

Thought provoking post, thank you xxx

Can't74deal, you posted before I replied, and I just want to say I understand some of the things you say too. A lot probably does depend on a person`s situation.

Just want to clarify, when I said, "ALL of them," I just meant my own abusers, not anyone else`s :)

have to say i am guilty of using that idea as a crutch and a reason for remaining far too long in bad situations. I have learned ALOT from these situations but now i am learning how strong i am.
warm gentle hugs

MTC, I am not surprise, I read conversations with God also a long time ago.

If one is inclined to try and reconcile a grand design and science one could point to the fact that when we are abused there are a variety of negative consequences physically and psychologically. We are designed that way to avoid harmful stimuli, therefore it's pretty clear we were not "meant" or "designed" to put up with abuses.

Rockin, fate versus free will, an age old question. Irreconcilable as far as I'm concerned, so yes, it is a philosophical problem. I don't have the answers either. I'm just trying to get by moment by moment, day by day in a way that when I'm on my deathbed I'll have peace, ya know?

Wow, I walked away from my computer for a couple of hours and the delightful surprise of these answers waited for me when I got back :-).
I do love philosophy...reading Nietzsche right now, and he debates that we have no free will, our path, responses, desires, etc. are already pre-programmed. Being a non-believer and rejector of any kind of metaphysic, he does not mention destiny, of course.
I think though that we do have free will, once we become aware and begin to view ourselves from the outside. Abused ones or abusers, reach a point of conscious choice, and that is when one must take accountability for actions and reactions. Actions before this point? Might be excusable. But, only the self knows whether that point was reached, as anybody can say "I didn't know what I was doing."
I have to check out the books you mentioned. And yes, I got the same line before, too, that "we are supposed to be together."

Narcissists, which all of my abusers were, do know what they are doing. They know enough about themselves and their behaviour to often give clues. Many of the ones I have known have said things like, "I`m a terrible person," "You should stay away from me," "I`ve got a black heart," and even, "I wonder what your therapist`s feelings would be about you pinning your hopes on me?" They know they hurt people; they just don`t have the empathy to care about it.

The other thing that is outward evidence of an abuser`s awareness of their behaviour is how often they switch their behaviour when someone else or the police turn up. They have control, otherwise they would not know to behave differently to different people in different places. They know that they will be exposed if they let people other than their victim see certain types of behaviour. So they actively hide it by saving it for when nobody else can see, and also often lie to others that their victim is their abuser.

That is so true. My wife is the master of this. She is completely different when her family is around or certain friends. One time she berated me about something I did in front of our friends but in a way that made it seem I was some sort of uncaring heartless person while making sure to omit what she had said and done. She knows I don't like making a scene so I know this was done on purpose in front of our friends to berate me.

Thanks for that link MTC

I was in the middle of a most wonderful fire ceremony with a holy person I respected. There were many, many people there, and I was soaring. The next thing I knew I saw my father standing to the side of the circle. What? I was ruffled. I only saw his vision for a few minutes, but I wondered why in the heck he was there with all this wonderful people in this amazing energy. I continued in my spiritual way that night, letting go of him. But afterwards I told the leader what I saw and wondered aloud why he was there. "He is a child of God, too."