Oh Bax, I am so sorry. Just try to breath and clear your mind. It is so difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion with abusers. I tried last week myself. I am sorry you are going through this pain. I wish I had an answer for you except try to take care of yourself right now. Sending you peaceful thoughts.

As I sat down to type this out, I got a call back from my dad. He told me that my wife called him, and told him how much she was hurting. She was pounding on the steering wheel and stomping on the brakes as I pulled out. She said 'I understand what he's felt now, because this hurts.'

my dad responded 'Good! This is fantastic! This is exactly the feeling of contrition you've been needing to feel in order to make any progress! Now, go to his apartment (Wait, what?!?) ask for a hug, and just sit with him for a while."

"DAD!!" I said. "I get that you're excited that she's made a breakthrough, but I ended the conversation to protect myself from her lashing out at me further!"

"Well, now that you know that she's just doing it so she doesn't have to feel guilty, it shouldn't be a problem!"

"I've known that, Dad - it's obvious to anyone who actually knows her! But I have a need to be safe, and I really don't appreciate you stepping in to..."

There was a knock at the door..

"Fuck. She's here. All right, I'll talk to her, but you've seriously crossed some boundaries tonight, and this isn't finished."

"Wait - you're angry at me? All I did was..."

"Yes, I'm angry at you, but we'll talk about it later. I love you. Goodbye."

Anyway, I invited my wife in, but asked her to stand in the doorway. I stood on the other side of the apartment. "I just came over here because I want a hug." She said. "I'm really looking for reassurance that things will be all right, and I'm hurting a lot right now."

As she said it, folks, I swear I could see the words typing themselves on the screen, right along with my parenthetical asides. I could picture Kaz's, and Ilenes, and Bunny's, and Giggles, and Myself, and Honor's responses right after mine.

And I broke.

In a good way.

I picked up my sketchbook, and held up picture after picture to her. "Is this how it hurts? Is this?" I pointed out the weapons on either side of the door, the suit of armor I was making myself. I talked, and I talked. I told her the truth. Everything I've felt. How hard I've tried. How much I've endured, to have her meeting me with little more than 'you're not really trying.' How I want to get a divorce, but am afraid to, because I don't want to hurt her. Because I've already broken my promise to her once, and I don't want to do it again. How I'm afraid of what it would look like for the children. And that I knew that by next week, she would be ready to complain about how I attacked her and accused her of abuse, how much it hurt her that I would say such things. And then she would cry and start feeling like a monster, and the session would stop, and we'd all encourage her that she's not a monster, it's half my fault, too... I told her, I am better than I was, but I am not fixed. I am a seriously broken man. But not because I'm crazy, because I'm wounded. Every time you turn your back on me, or when you ignore something nice I've made for you. When you cut me down, ask how I could be so rotten, criticize me, give me permission,.. How does that make me FEEL? I've got to be honest, I've started filling out the papers so many times, but stopped myself because I don't want to hurt you. But I also still feel terrified of you - My depression and confusion make me the biggest threat to my life, and I can't shut that out. But when I talk to you, I get more depressed and confused! And then on top of all that, I've had the legal issues, the betrayal, rejection, and abandonment by three of my best friends and now four deaths in the last year and a half. You want to help me? Take this feeling, this pain, and DO NOT FORGET IT. Put it in the forefront of your mind for at least two years, And hold yourself accountible if you realize you're sitting by my bedside idly playing with a zippo lighter, because you also know that I am FRIGHTENED to ask you to stop. Honestly, the kindest thing you could do for me is to file the paperwork yourself. Just let me go, let me not have to be the one to hurt you. I don't want to hurt you, I don't want to hurt the kids, but I'm afraid of them growing up in an abusive household. It might be him, but when our three year old cries and runs to get a paper towel when he spills water on the floor, when my daughter sits in silence in her room for hours... I don't know that these are the abuses' fault, but I do know that they COULD be, and that terrifies me.

She stood in silence. I walked to her, handed her a handout of the effects of witnessing abuse on children. I said 'when you came in here, you wanted a hug. Now that I've shared all that with you, I offer you that hug, with you knowing what it means to me. I opened my arms, And stood and waited.

She hugged me.

I told her "I am so sad that I found the answer, and it's nothing I can do anything about. I wish to God I could fix it. But I can't. All I can do is wait and hope that you do. And that's killing me."

I read earlier today that depression is the hopelessness of not having a path. Sadness is not liking the path you have. Sometimes, sadness is the appropriate reaction to the path before us. I'm no longer going to let my fear of sadness delude me into thinking there is no path. There is one. It just sucks.

I'm not depressed. But I am sad.

Wow. Wow.

And I certainly know the pain of the woman you love threatening to kill herself, over things she claimed I did. Or just making those statements, day in, day out. And she doesn't get how much it hurts - pure torture. I think her father knows, too, and that is partially why he keeps a distance.

BTW, my sister in law has done that to my brother, and now my sister is remembering my mom used to do that to my dad. It's pure agonizing hell.

I'm so sorry Bax.

In regards to what you describe above, I have no words apart from Kevin's wow...

I'm not a guy, and my husband did not do this half as much as he did other things, but in the times when he really got in a state with himself, he would ask me if he should go and cut himself or commit suicide. It would come after something he said I had done wrong in the house, or some other 'evidence' of my practical incompetence, ALWAYS.

You are right, it would make your head ache thinking about how to find an appropriate response to that. And you just can't...I want to say, you shouldn't have to. You did nothing to provoke the threats. They are her issue, not yours.

Sending hugs and warm thoughts. Take Andrea's advice: breathe, just one breath at a time. You'll make it. xx

DO YOU LOVE HER? WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO MARRIAGE OR RECONCILIATION, I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT H, I DO NOT LOVE HIM, HE FOUND IT HARD TO ACCEPT, ITS THE TRUTH, I HATE THAT I LET HIM CONVINCE ME TO STAY ,NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE, NOW I CANNOT DIVORCE HIM, THE LAW ON PENSION HAS CHANGED, I WOULD HAVE NO MONEY TO LIVE ON, SO HE CAN PISS OFF ANYTIME, WITHOUT A DIVORCE, HE RUINED MY LIFE, ABUSED ME EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSYCALLY,USED ME, BETRAYED ME, HE BEGGED ME NOT TO LEAVE HIM, NOW I AM THE ONE THAT SLEEPS ALONE, HAD I LEFT HIM ALL THOS EYEARS AGO, I MIGHT HAD A CHANCE TO FIND TRUE LOVE** DECIDE WHAT BEST FOR YOU, YOUR CHILDREN MIGHT THANK YOU SOME DAY, I WISH MY MOM HAD LEFT MY FATHER, HE HAD A MISTRESS AND WE ALL SUFFERED, SO THINK ABOUT IT, AND THINK OF YOURSELF, HAS FOR THE SUICIDE TREATS, ITS UP TO HER NOT YOU***

Bax by asking her to file the paperwork herself is letting her take control of your destiny.

I believe in life we are faced with many doors, but we have to walk through a door we choose ourselves before we can ever move forward.

Yes it is scary, it brings fear of the unknown, the thoughts of worse case scenarios, but there will always be another door to walk through on the other side of the one you choose. It may not be the door you really really want, but it's a door and leads to another way of life, however big or small that way is.

I have said it many times and I will say it many times to come to all parents, "be the stability in their lives" you may not be able to fully protect your children, it sounds like you can't do that anyway because they are as things stand, still living with this, what you can do is offer then a sanctuary, an abuse free environment for however long a week you can. They will get to see that abuse isn't normal as they will get to compare the two ways of life. When they grow up they'll one to you for advice, for a rock to lean on and they will have that relationship with you!

My advice is to make your own life for yourself and for your children, create an abuse free environment around yourself as much as you can.

You are going around in cycles with the marriage counselling, it's not working, abusive people don't have breakthroughs!

Bax.. your path may suck and be painful.. but if you stay the course and if you are determined to turn that sadness into joy, happiness and peace.. that path will be worth traveling. I can relate to your post in many ways. I am still in my marriage because I don't want to hurt my husband but I know its over... has been for many years. He physically abused me 20+ years ago but I am finally dealing with it after all these years and it HURTS AND PAINFUL. But I have to go through it for me.. to free myself from this hurt and pain.. NOT EASY BY A LONG SHOT. Like you, I also had (2) deaths within a year or two.. my youngest and oldest brother. I have decided to leave.. not sure when or how.. right now, don't have the financial means. But I am very hopeful.

I love where you said you imagined all of our responses! I hope mine was well worded and spelled correctly ;)
Honestly I cannot imagine being as strong as you are. I do not stand and take the pain. I curl in and ignore the world. I don't even see the abuse until hours or days later most times. You are an inspiring man and I am proud to be one of your friends.

Bax, thank you for your willingness to trust us with these thoughts. After someone has been abused we here can testify it is very difficult....at times nearly impossible to open up to someone. You put yourself out there with us to share this with us.

Something that occurs to me is a possible way to handle future suicide threats. Perhaps this isn't a current issue and maybe she won't "go there" after the things you've said; but this is a dialog that may help. The dialog would be something like this:
"I realize that when we fight it if very upsetting to you. It is upsetting to me too. I don't know how to fix what you're feeling and I feel a lot of pressure when you make statements that tell me you are going to hurt yourself in some way. I am not able to help you in those times and I don't want you to hurt yourself so I need you to know that from here on out, if you indicate to me that you may hurt yourself I am going to immediately call for medical help. I take those words very seriously and I know you wouldn't say them unless you were serious so this is the best way for me to handle this and protect all of us, including the kids. Do you understand what I'm telling you?"
Then get her to repeat back what you said you will do. At this point even if she doesn't make those threats she realizes that there will be consequences to her words and perhaps she will think more before saying whatever comes to mind as she brings her garbage to the dump and it lands on you.

I hear in your words a ring of familiarity to a dynamic in the abuse relationship. I hear in your words that you are trying to get her to understand. I think that is what anyone who is healthy whatsoever wants to do. She, however, has a different agenda and different goals than you. What I hear in the words you shared is her fighting for her self-centered agenda and you trying to protect yourself with an armor of argument. I don't mean argument in a negative way, more of a court of law kind of way.

This is what just comes to mind- a court of law is a good example. The abuser sees herself/himself on the stand being interrogated, other times as the judge and other times as the defense attorney. I think where victims get sidetracked is when we attempt to treat abusers as though they are the jury. You want the jury to feel for the victim. To see the victim's POV. When an abuser is taking one of those 3 mentioned positions, they aren't influenced by the arguments of the victim. These are only taken into account as a defense attorney would. His first and foremost agenda is to discredit and find loopholes. A defense attorney doesn't want to hug it out at the end (not a reference to what you did, just saying in general).

The judge is trying to weed through the bull and make his judgment on who is in the wrong, who made the better argument. (Not saying a judge can't be swayed by compassion but we aren't talking about this kind of judge).

In your words I see you looking at your spouse as the jury in trying to get them to understand...to relate...to empathize and want justice. An abuser wants us to believe they are part of a sympathetic jury but their actions say otherwise.

I guess what i'm saying in not a short way is I see myself in your dialog. Trying to find some shred of hope, decency, goodwill, tenderness, compassion from your spouse. I can't seem to stop trying to find this no matter what evidence I have to the contrary stating this is unreasonable for me to do this. However there is a 100% success rate in feeling invalidated, guilty, abandoned, scorned when attempting to relate to an abusive person on this level. Maybe I'm just becoming too jaded but I'm starting to believe that the reason there is no chance of this is bc the goodwill, compassion, tenderness we are trying to excavate like an archeological find is dinosaur bones in Louisiana. They just aren't there. There is simply too much self protection and false agenda going on with the abuser that those moments we experienced were false. Only part of the agenda and not reality so this is why we never come up with any hidden treasure as we dig. Like I said, I might be too jaded right now so don't substitute my judgment for your own as Dr Phil would say.