Physical & Emotional Abuse Support Group
Abuse is a general term for the treatment of someone that causes some kind of harm (to the abused person, to the abusers themselves, or to someone else) that is unlawful or wrongful. No one deserves abuse, period. Abuse can be emotional, physical, or sexual.
I've been a major fan of P. Evans.
Her first book, published over
twenty years ago now, was my
"Rosetta Stone" in understanding
what I'd gone through for a dozen
years, and was instrumental in my
healing and recovery.
After I'd digested it, I bought at
least a dozen copies, and gave
them to anyone I thought would
garner some support. And I made
sure to buy every book she subsequently
published, including updated versions
of the earliest ones.
When "The Verbally Abusive Man ---
Can he Change?" came out in 2006
I bought it, read it, and thought,
"Oh my God. This is potentially
very bad news!!!!!!"
I thought this because it wasn't till half way
through the book, that Evans included a
couple-sentence warning that the suggestions
she was laying out could be dangerous in
some circumstances. . . . . .
HALFWAY through the book!.
I still applaud Evans for the body of
work she's produced for the benefit
of women and men needing to identify
and escape emotional abuse. She's
a matriarch in this field.
But the book about abusive men
(or women!) being able to "change,"
is a position I will never be able to
agree with. And my initial reservations
about the possibility that an abuser
changing is possible, and the subsequent
suggestions about how to "facilitate" this
eventuality, being misleading and
potentially DANGEROUS ---- apparently
are being played out, somewhere in
the world, every day.
An emotionally (verbally) abusive man
or woman is NO LESS DANGEROUS
than an abuser who has been physically
violent. In fact, the abuser who is physically
violent in ways that cause minor injuries to
his or her victim, is more likely to be identified
as an abuser and left behind, BEFORE that
abuser cripples or murders his or her victim.
Whereas the primarily verbally and emotionally
abusive predator is much less likely to be
identified by either the victim or by society,
and is therefore able to continue the abuse. . . .
which either typicallay escalates into physical
injury, or remains unidentified UNTIL A FINAL
EXPLOSIVE EVENT, which then results in one
(or MORE) people being killed, takes place.
(Those scenarios are the ones that turn up
in the local and sometimes national media.)
The contract that Evans lays out might
actually be useful in the context of a
NON-abusive relationship which has
some problems. Within the context
of an ABUSIVE relationship, my
belief is that it raises the risk to
the victim by a factor of at least
a hundred percent ---- partly because
the abuser has been called out
as an abuser (which they can't
tolerate), and partly because the
target of abuse imagines that there's
now some "safety" within the relationship
and that things may actually be getting
better ---- which leaves her or him
even more vulnerable than before.
Almost no "authority" is totally right
on every singe point. And I don't
hold what I believe to be a mistake,
against Patricia Evans. I still see
her as someone who's probably saved
many lives. I'm just concerned for the
vulnerable targets who either remain
(or even return), lured back by the hope
that the abuser contaminating and
devaluing their life, (to the point of
putting it at risk), might somehow,
someday, magically transform into
the partner they'd originally hoped for.
Her first book, published over
twenty years ago now, was my
"Rosetta Stone" in understanding
what I'd gone through for a dozen
years, and was instrumental in my
healing and recovery.
After I'd digested it, I bought at
least a dozen copies, and gave
them to anyone I thought would
garner some support. And I made
sure to buy every book she subsequently
published, including updated versions
of the earliest ones.
When "The Verbally Abusive Man ---
Can he Change?" came out in 2006
I bought it, read it, and thought,
"Oh my God. This is potentially
very bad news!!!!!!"
I thought this because it wasn't till half way
through the book, that Evans included a
couple-sentence warning that the suggestions
she was laying out could be dangerous in
some circumstances. . . . . .
HALFWAY through the book!.
I still applaud Evans for the body of
work she's produced for the benefit
of women and men needing to identify
and escape emotional abuse. She's
a matriarch in this field.
But the book about abusive men
(or women!) being able to "change,"
is a position I will never be able to
agree with. And my initial reservations
about the possibility that an abuser
changing is possible, and the subsequent
suggestions about how to "facilitate" this
eventuality, being misleading and
potentially DANGEROUS ---- apparently
are being played out, somewhere in
the world, every day.
An emotionally (verbally) abusive man
or woman is NO LESS DANGEROUS
than an abuser who has been physically
violent. In fact, the abuser who is physically
violent in ways that cause minor injuries to
his or her victim, is more likely to be identified
as an abuser and left behind, BEFORE that
abuser cripples or murders his or her victim.
Whereas the primarily verbally and emotionally
abusive predator is much less likely to be
identified by either the victim or by society,
and is therefore able to continue the abuse. . . .
which either typicallay escalates into physical
injury, or remains unidentified UNTIL A FINAL
EXPLOSIVE EVENT, which then results in one
(or MORE) people being killed, takes place.
(Those scenarios are the ones that turn up
in the local and sometimes national media.)
The contract that Evans lays out might
actually be useful in the context of a
NON-abusive relationship which has
some problems. Within the context
of an ABUSIVE relationship, my
belief is that it raises the risk to
the victim by a factor of at least
a hundred percent ---- partly because
the abuser has been called out
as an abuser (which they can't
tolerate), and partly because the
target of abuse imagines that there's
now some "safety" within the relationship
and that things may actually be getting
better ---- which leaves her or him
even more vulnerable than before.
Almost no "authority" is totally right
on every singe point. And I don't
hold what I believe to be a mistake,
against Patricia Evans. I still see
her as someone who's probably saved
many lives. I'm just concerned for the
vulnerable targets who either remain
(or even return), lured back by the hope
that the abuser contaminating and
devaluing their life, (to the point of
putting it at risk), might somehow,
someday, magically transform into
the partner they'd originally hoped for.
About 2 months ago, I read Evans' book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship. It was eye opening. I then came here and have been piecing together bits of the puzzle that left me feeling so confused, unhappy, and just not right
My husband has been on his best behavior since our in-house separation for about 2 months now. He refused to leave but is staying downstairs instead. He's been talking to a childhood friend who is telling him how wrong he's been in treating me and reacting to certain situations and that he needs to change.
My husband finally agreed to IC. I pulled together a list - who specialize in abusive relationships (he does not know that though) and gave it to him to call and find one. He had his first session last night. Didn't say much about it though when he got home.
I started Evans' second book about the possibility of the abuser changing, I haven't gotten to the middle yet, where she says some situations may be dangerous.
I have given my husband a time frame. We have 2 little girls - 8 and 2- and I don't want to ruin the holidays for them. But in my mind I am completely emotionally and physically checked out of this marriage.
I will admit though, since he has been on his good behavior, crying at how much he wants us to make this work because he doesn't want to lose me or the kids, I feel badly. He makes advances towards me and I feel like a bitch for turning him down, but I just don't feel it.
He keeps saying he gets it now and really understands and sees where he was wrong and will work on it. He asks that I need to trust him and give him another chance. Up until a week ago I would stand firm and say, Ive tried explaining this to you for 3 years, have given you chances, accepted your apology and tried to move on, but I dont believe your words anymore. i need to see actions.
Even as i waver back and forth, I fear that if I cave and get back to "normal" he will eventually revert back to his old ways and then it would make it only that much harder to start the detaching process again. OR I feel that he may change slightly, and be less controlling or passive/aggressive, just enough that HE will be ok with the marriage, but I will be left unfulfilled.
This is very difficult.
articulate response.
I know that with children
in the family, decisions
are all that much more
complex.
Your concerns about
the future, if you "relent,"
are probably justified.
If you find things are
basically working,
living "upstairs, downstairs,"
I suggest you keep them
that way. I also suggest
that if you go with that
"arrangement," that you
specify that there be
NO PHYSICAL INTIMACY
for as long as YOU
stipulate, and that
that means that there
be NO "advances," either!
In my opinion, (still living
under the same roof),
that's the only way you're
going to be able to determine
if he's able to absorb any
genuine insight and then,
PUT THOSE INSIGHTS
into ACTION!
(Abusers don't have a
good record of being
able to do those two
things.)
For the record, the book
I'm speaking about in this
thread is more like Evans'
fourth or fifth. I could get
behhind all her other work,
but not this one.
"My husband has been on his best behavior since our in-house separation for about 2 months now. He refused to leave but is staying downstairs instead." He refused to leave, as in, you made a request for him to leave, and he refused?
I also think I remember you telling us a few times that he's applied some pretty serious pressure to further change that arrangement.
"I will admit though, since he has been on his good behavior, crying at how much he wants us to make this work because he doesn't want to lose me or the kids, (Guilt, using the kids as a hook, making it about him.) I feel badly. (Becasue that's the purpose of his tactic - it works.) He makes advances towards me (further pressure to alter the arrangement, honeymooning, guilt, emotional and physical manipulation) and I feel like a bitch for turning him down, but I just don't feel it. " (Let's see - you don't feel ready to turn your back to someone who repeatedly stabbed you in it and it's your fault, even though he's standing there with knife in hand. Again, that's why he's making advances - either he gets what he wants - a win for him, or you feel guilty for not giving him what he wants - a win for him. Where's the part in the equation that says 'He has NO RIGHT to make this request, after what he's done and still is doing?')
Just some things I spotted.
I haven't read Evan's latest book, but that's a real shame - like you, that first book was POWERFUL to me. Sorry to hijack, Ilene!
I view it like this. Do you remember being in school and taking a true or false test? My teacher told the class that a good rule of thumb about true or false is they words ALWAYS AND NEVER. If we read those words.. the answer is usually false. As very few things are ALWAYS AND NEVER.
That is the problem I have with labels. We come to this site and without question label every poster's partner( or the person they are venting about) as "An Abuser"
I've often wondered what would happen if a couple were to post here independently. They would each complain about the other and tell their side of the story. Would your advice to both of them be.... "Leave right away. You are with an abuser" ??
Just something to think about.
I have not read and of Evans work as of yet, but was considering getting the one you are talking about. At this point I only want him to change for my children's sake. Thank you, Ilene, for sharing this. You are a wonderful source of information.
If you follow my responses,
you'll see that I'm careful to
qualify my posts, with a nod
to the infintessimal number
of exceptions to the quantity
of abusers who don't change
or only change for the worse.
I actually know personally,
one violently dysfunctional
abuser, who ---- over the
course of his lifetime ----
DID change enough to
no longer be violently
dangerous.
Speaking to your second paragraph:
In the case where there's a "he said/
she said" kind of situation, generally,
listening to the accumulations of
patterns and circumstances, enough
clues emerge from the telling, to
discern who's experiencing more
of the control and bullying, and who's
perpetrating more of the control and
bullying. In my professional practice, I
sometimes get to hear both perspectives.
It can be "messy," but it's seldom so tangled
as to be totally unclear. People operate
over time with a spectrum of behavioral
patterns. Generally, some patterns
predominate, others appear less often.
Also, in both my personal situation
and in my professional practice,
when enough of the circumstances
are identified and acknowledged
to understand what's going on,
then. . . . putting the correct "label"
on a situation can help (the survivor,
in particular), to progress on the
journey of reclaiming an abuse-free
life.
After I had read Evan's book and
understood that what I'd been
experiencing in my marriage
wasn't simply a problematic
relationship, but was ABUSE,
I was able to finally take the
next step to move myself
forward. Understanding
what I was seeing, helped.
Also, for the record, I have
frequently written that leaving
abuse may take time, or may
not be possible, ultimately.
I could not and did not leave
my abusive marriage at the
drop of a hat. It took me time.
(I actually left BEFORE I understood
that it was abusive. I left because
I knew if I didn't leave, I would DIE.)
I agree, christysays. Circumstances
are seldom black or white. But
sometimes, an acccurate diagnosis
(or an accurate label), HELPS.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Your perspective always
(hmmmm, I'll stick with
that), provides valuable
discussion.
Notmyself, there are so many similarities between you and I and our situations. My kids are 7 and 2, and about the same time you did, I realized how emotionally abusive my husband was. We also had a confrontation where I listed all of his behaviors that were unacceptable, toward me and the kids. I suggested separating and he refused that just like your husband did. We've been living together and sleeping in the same bed, but I told him "no sex" 3 months ago and he has respected that and not made any advances. It would really bother me if he did. He has made a couple of jokes about going to Vegas to the bunny ranch and I told him go ahead. Honestly at this point I feel like I wouldn't care, as long as he doesn't bother me with it. We have physical contact in the form of hugs and occasional kisses (nothing passionate) and I am comfortable with that.
My husband has also been "on his best behavior", going to therapy and treating everyone in the family with well deserved respect. He seems to be making some changes despite many people's warnings about abusers not able to change. He's had some slip ups but for the most part the mood around our house is much improved, less anxious and tense and more relaxed.
I would add that these changes ONLY came about when he realized I was seriously planning to leave. I had asked for these changes multiple times throughout our marriage, cried, begged, pleaded, to no avail. I still don't trust the changes, and have told him that, and I'm not sure I will ever fully trust him again or want to be intimate with him.
I'm not sure if I would have left sooner if not for the holidays. Same as you said, I don't have the heart to uproot my kids and move somewhere new and leave my husband alone right before the holidays. I also have a need to feel secure financially, and I feel like I want to be working and settled in that routine before I leave. On my current path that should happen early in the new year. My best to you and anyone else still living with someone who's abused them. It is at times weird and awkward, and definitely confusing. xx
However I have no problem whatsoever with labeling someone according to their behavior because ACTION DEFINES CHARACTER.
Words are extremely cheap. Anybody can say, "I am a good person, I am generous and caring." But only those people who actually BEHAVE like good, generous caring people deserve to be considered as such. It is what we DO, not what we say, that defines who we are.
With those who are called "abusers" we are talking about CHRONIC behavior that is repeated again and again over time. Anybody can do or say something abusive once or twice. But only an abuser will REPEATEDLY, over a period of years, behave in an abusive way towards the people they supposedly love the most.
If I procrastinate once or twice, that's nothing. But if I do it every day, I deserve the label of procrastinator.
If I slack off work to play video games once or twice, that's no big deal. But if I do it every day, I deserve the label of being lazy.
If I say something abusive to a friend, lover, or family member, I am someone who made a bad mistake. But if I do it every day, I am an ABUSER.
And there is a mountain of EXPERIENCE that tells us abusive behavior DOESN'T CHANGE -- except to escalate and get even worse. The only way abusive behavior can change is for the guilty person -- the abuser -- to get specialized counseling and work very hard over a long period of time. This is what the experience of countless cases of abuse has to tell us.
That's the danger of minimizing what the ABUSER really is.
Thats exactly what my IC said. That if he still refuses to leave, and stays downstairs, i need to watch him now. He can say all he wants. But it's his actions that will tell all. I was wrong about which book it was of hers - I only know of the 2 I was given by a friend. Didn't realize she had so many :)
Bax -
Yes you are right - he has tried many tactics to change my mind. And I appreciate the way you took the time to break things down.
How he's still winning either way, and using our children as a hook. The worst was when he said our children already lost a set of parents, and now they'd be losing him. (We adopted our children and when he said that, it killed me. As if I'm not thinking that too? I want to do whats best for them - they are my life!) It's so sad and confusing because - as in "normal" healthy marriages - when couples have usual disagreements about things, they can discuss things in a healthy way and come to an agreement without tricking or manipulating the other. You may even joke around and have make up sex.
But, I feel things are past those points. What we have isn't just your normal healthy disagreements.
I can see how I've changed. Changed the way i stand up for myself and started to cater to him and second guess myself. Keeping my mouth shut to avoid an argument. All of these changes to my true self - for him. And now that I point this out to him, he's trying to blame me for letting things get this far, saying I should have just stood up for myself...... and the cycle continues.
Daydreamer -
I'm sorry for what you're going through - we do share many similarities. The thing is whereas the mood is less anxious and he's laughing and playing with the kids and bringing me home small token gifts, I still feel so far gone. For him, it' been 2 sad months. for me it's been 3 years and I'm tracing it back to the last 12. I pray you find the financial security you need to feel confident in your decision.
I apologize for the highjack as well Ilene. I just really appreciate the comments and wanted to reply. When I start to waver, it helps to get some reinforcements. I don't post much, although I'm reading here everyday. I just feel like I'm in a fog and don't know what to say or ask most of the time. But when I read something that hits home for me, I open up :)
Hugs,
I haven't really had time to process everything, but i will say that it is overwhelming and as I typed everything out I thought to myself.... "this is just going to make my husband very mad." I am suppose to go to my first counseling session with my husband tomorrow and am wondering if I want to bring the "Agreement."
I may just put it off because I don't feel prepared and I am exhausted by everything.
I understood as I read the entire book and by the personal response that I received from P. Evans that this is not an automatic or easy fix. It takes a ton of work, commitment, and a person who really in the deepest part of their being truly wants to change for him/her self.... not just to save the marriage.
On that note, it makes me feel sad to hear you stressing about your counseling session with your husband tomorrow. Obviously the Patricia Evans book made sense to you and you've spent time writing out an agreement (which I'm sure is very fair on your part and, if anything, too lenient on him). Now you're struggling with if it's okay to share with your husband and fearing he will be mad about it. Why would a husband "be mad" about receiving a list of what his wife's needs and wants are from him? It's kind of a rhetorical question, I deal with similar fears about my husband's reactions to things.
One of the things I'm looking for is "can he change enough for long enough that I no longer second-guess myself, monitor what I say and how I say it, don't feel anxious when he enters the room", etc. The fact that you have been separated for a couple months and he's been begging for you to come home, and you're still scared about him getting mad about you telling him what you need, is a sign to me that you still have a lot of healing to do, and he still has a lot of changing to do.
Best wishes to you in your appointment. Please guard your heart and soul to the extent you can. I will be thinking of you. xx
From what I remember (and some of you may remember it, too) for about the first two months after I started coming to terms with the whole 'abuse' perspective, I was super confused. I fought with myself between that which I wanted to be true, and what I knew to be true. (Yeah, ok, I'm still doing it. But I'm getting better.) I knew I had no place diagnosing any of my wife's behavior. My wife and my therapist asked me to stop using the term 'abuse' - my wife preferred 'mistake.' It left her more room for grace (and I now note, completely ignores any acknowledgement of my own suffering.)
but being concrete with the terms helped alleviate that confusion. I couldn't diagnose her as a narcissist, but I could learn about them, determine how likely it was that she was one, identify and call her out on narcissistic behaviors, and best of all, behave myself as if she were one - being very self-protecting.
Further, I know that when I came to grips with my infidelity, I asked her to my apartment, knelt at her feet, and said 'I am a liar and an adulterer. I've proven that I am the kind of man who can and will lie, for a variety of reasons, and who will commit adultery given the opportunity. I don't want to be those things, and I"m going to do everything in my power to see that I never do them again. But I'll always be a man who IS a liar and adulterer. And I hope that some day, you'll forgive me for hurting you so badly - you didn't deserve it.' I totally owned my crimes. And that's frankly, the kind of response I'm looking for from her (she doesn't have to be quite so dramatic, but the sentiment needs to be the same.)
Accepting those shameful labels as true is an essential part of owning it.
I have read a lot on abusers. In some of the articles, it does say abusers can change-------IF THEY WANT TO.
I think people are reading, and the IF THEY WANT TO, flies right over their head. They put no thought into what those words really, really, mean. They read their abuser can change ---every victim WANTS and thinks HER or HIS abuser can change. The victim thinks that because an abuser says he can change, and he promises he will change, that he actually will change.
They forget that an abusers MO is they will say and do ANYTHING to get you to come back or keep you from leaving in the first place. As soon as the threat of leaving, or you go home is over, ---they change their attitude.
They find out it is years of hard work with a therapist who is trained in abuse, and they do not go through with it.