IMHO there are plenty of selfish ppl in the world but there are more ppl who are just not capable of compassion for others than we can admit. like those who cannot do high level math some ppl lack emotions yes they may have some rudimentary ones they just are not that developed and will never be.
Personally I don't feel sorry for either because it would be like feeling sorry for a toaster either it works or it doesn't. who we are truly feeling sorry for is us because we hoped they would have them but we were wrong or fooled

I see where you are coming from... I think.

Even though mine fits many of the psychopathic behavioural criteria, I had a lot of similar doubts. For one thing, I would get regularly hosed down with pity-seeking behaviour: "I didn't mean it, I wouldn't intentionally, I didn't know it would hurt you," etc.

That adds to our natural loving feelings for the person, plus our fervent desire to believe that they are not 'really' as bad as their worst behaviour would seem to prove they are. Together, they are hard to resist. I totally get it. Been there, done that.

But what is REALLY real? Answer: the fact that, despite apparently not meaning/not intending/not knowing whether or not their behaviour would hurt us, they CARRY ON. And on.

And even though, from their side, it is the difference between taking pleasure in hurting others and just not caring NOT to hurt them, from our side, the result is essentially the same in either case:

We get abused and hurt, and no-one cares enough to STOP ... whether they are actively enjoying inflicting pain on us, or not.

I'm totally with RB on this one.

I still don't know whether my ex took delight in my pain or not. I don't really think so (but then again, I'm not sure I could handle it if he did, so maybe that's the last shred of denial that I just need to stick to). But ultimately, it really doesn't matter to me whether he delighted in it, deliberately caused it for his own pleasure, or whether he merely did things he knew very well would cause pain and watched me writhe in pain without showing a shred of caring, just because it suited him to do so. Either way, it's a deliberate causing of pain to another human without concern for their wellbeing. And that's evil and wrong.

Where I found the sympathy from was the fact that he was clearly damaged and troubled himself. He admitted to having a constant internal rage that he mostly kept just below the surface. He told me a few horror stories from his childhood. He was an alcoholic. He clearly had problems, and I kidded myself I could help to fix them. He also kidded me that I could help fix them - even pretended he actually WANTED to fix them. And that was the cruellest blow of all. And very deliberate.

Yeah totally! I haven't read/heard anything to suggest they are all psychopaths- I just don't think it works that way as most abuse from their beliefs, not from they lack of emotions a psychopath has. Of course that doesn't make them less dangerous though.

There's a guy named something Dutton that has some real interesting talks on psychopathy. More from a standpoint of understanding than than exposing and protecting from.

But It's possible I may have missed the overall point- still learning!

Just wanted to add that I get Livn's point about the 'fixing' as well.

I desperately wanted to help mine fix himself. He would also recount awful incidents from his childhood and say occasionally, "Yeah, maybe I should see a counsellor?" and it would fill me with hope... only for his memory to apparently reset by the next day, when he would deny both the desire for and the necessity of any such help.

It sunk in eventually. His behaviour told me what his fancy words often contradicted: he didn't care enough to do anything except keep hurting me for as long as I was there to hurt.

I was thinking about this today. I remember in "Why Does He Do That?" the message from abusive men of "You shouldn't hit a woman, but sometimes you have no other choice." They start out right, but then their entitlement bulldozes that. The mind of an abuser.

Hello all,
I am new to this support site and I came here because I just ended (FINALLY) a brief relationship with a very charming good looking abuser. Like many of you said he admits he has a problem and has admitted it before apparently and the hardest part is letting go of wanting to be with him while he is "trying" to get better. I think how stupid can i be, I mean I am going to school to be a social worker and I work at a domestic violence agency and yet I get punched in the eye. I knew better and he never acted like he enjoyed hurting me physically or emotionally but he does show some of the sociopath traits just as false empathy which is "I am so sorry", "I would never hurt you sober" until he gets me back only for a brief moment and then it is back to "i see the real you and I would never leave someone if they were sick like you did me and I don't want you in my life" and then of course a day later "Im sorry for being a douche, please dont give up on me".

All these cycles are exhausting and when I find myself missing him I get angry but I try to understand that abusers condition their abused and that is what keeps us.

Hello and congrats!!!

i have no sympathy at all i wish very bad stuff on them even death they know better, they have no excuse at all

Interesting topic. I don't think sociopath or psychopath are clinical terms anymore, so correct me if I am wrong. But I think the common usage is that of a person who gets some kind of pleasure or relief in hurting others. To me, that is different than "lacking empathy". Separate from those who truly get a rise out of hurting others, there are several types to consider:

1) the person who does bad things because of lack of control, and feels extremely remorseful afterwards.
2) the person who for the most part is empathetic, but takes delight in seeking revenge against those whom they claim to have hurt them.
3) the person who does things that hurt others, but truly lacks an understanding that his or her behavior is hurtful.
4) various combinations of the above.

I think my ex had empathy, but it wasn't the same kind of empathy a healthy person had. At times, she did feel bad. But often, she would feel justified or entitled to hurt others, and seemed to show little remorse. Her son told her she hits him when she drinks. She denied, and didn't really seem to care.

My current girlfriend has empathy and remorse to the point of feeling extreme shame. I think she fights back the desire for revenge. And I also think at times she gets so out of control her actions truly get blacked out. Depending on the situation, she can fit into all of the above categories I mentioned. She knows she has done things to hurt me, but I don't think understands how bad. But she still does those things. And sometimes, I think she really doesn't remember events.

I think the typical abuser is completely detached from reality. They live in a reality created in their own heads, and lack the capacity to truly place themselves in another's shoes. I think many know something isn't right, but there is no rational thought of the situation, instead it gets filtered through this alternate reality. So they manipulate the outside world so that it agrees with what they believe internally. I don't think they get pleasure out of manipulating or controlling, I think they feel that is what they have to do in order to be in agreement with their internal reality. They hurt inside, so that must mean others need to hurt outside.

I think a true psychopath works differently, and is simply working on very basic pleasure urges. Life is like playing a game where consequences don't exist. the idea of going to jail or hurting another doesn't ever cross their mind - it's the "rush" that they are after.

regarding sympathy - it's hard for me to detach because I feel bad that such a person can never feel true happiness or love. But I struggle to let it stop there, and not let myself sympathize with their situations. Sure, my girlfriend was involved in some unfortunate abusive situations. But much of her hurt comes from situations she created or contributed to herself. I should have sympathy for those she hurt, and I do. I used to sympathize that some ex dumped her or that she had to file bankruptcy. But now I see how her behavior directly contributes to those situations. I sympathize that she doesn't understand that she controls her own life, but I don't sympathize for the events that she caused herself.

"So they manipulate the outside world so that it agrees with what they believe internally." Whoah! Very insightful!!

ooooo - That's pretty much what I see, and my girlfriend kinda describes it that way. She thinks all men will eventually abandon her. She OBSESSES over that. Her reaction is then to paint all men as evil and make everything their fault, so that when they do leave her, she can keep up this idea that all men are evil and will eventually leave her. And that becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Great thoughts, all!

Kevin, also note the comparison of yourself to the idealized you. One who is completely masculine and independent, yet always does exactly what she wants, even before she asks - who never startles or frightens her, never makes her feel out of control of the situation, never does anything except be absolutely perfect.

And how angry they get when you aren't that person... so they'll force you to be.

Oh, and welcome, case! Sorry to hear you need to join us, delighted you found us! Look at this this way - you have a rare opportunity to learn exactly what is happening in relationships lik this!