I've been doing work in and around and on (lol) the victim triangle (also known as the drama triangle) for several years now. It's very interesting to see how we continually shift in and out of each of the roles (victim, rescuer and persecutor). What I've recently learned is that they all stem from the victim position. There's a great book, Breaking Free of the Victim Trap that is very enlightening and uses combinations of case studies to explain how it all works.

It makes me tired trying to read all that, but it rings true to me. There are only 3 people in my life who have ever greatly angered me, and all 3 are sociopaths or accordiing to this language, persecutors--my mother, my ex-husband and my recent ex. I have screamed at my mother only once, but the other 2, many times--becoming, for the moment, their persecutors.

I never thought of this as being this intricate. I mean, if you sit around all day poking a dog with a stick, the dog will get mean. Does that mean the dog is also on this triangle? Maybe so.

I do agree that it isn't a great fit for abusive relationships. Continued and repetitive behavior WILL have an effect on anyone, no matter how one strives to be free of drama. But for me, at least, the abuse did teach me to operate on this triangle very well - and it's a lifestyle which robs me of a lot. In relationship or out - I don't want to be on this triangle ever.

Bu I'm learning of a second triangle - one which has three positive and self-empowering roles. Kind of an inverse of this one. I'm still learning about it, though. Sounds like a much better place to be!

Well, now you've got me hooked, Bax. I am going to wade through that whole thing--when I am feeling less tired.

kris, its very intricate. Using your example of poking a dog w/a stick, it means the one w/the stick poking the dog is in the persecutor role and the dog is in the victim role. If someone runs up to the person w/the stick and tries to stop them from poking the dog, hey are rescuing the dog, and more than likely they are also persecuting the stick holder. As you learn about the triangle, you will see that it until we do the work, we pretty much spend a lot of time on it just changing roles. It isn't about blame, it's about behavior. Some of the behavior is learned and some is born out of trying to survive.

It's really important to remember that we do the best we can with what we have at the time and as we learn & know better we do better. Blaming doesn't solve anything - it just keeps us in the triangle.

It probably sounds nuts, but as we do our 'work' we can start to recognize not only the abuser's behavior as dysfunctional, but also our own. That doesn't mean we deserve abuse, because we do NOT. Nor does it mean we asked for it. And it certainly doesn't mean we are responsible for the abuser's actions. We are only responsible for our own actions.

I think sometimes when we hear someone say we allow or enable abuse, we get defensive because we think they mean it's our fault or that we asked for it or encouraged it. What I discovered is that I did enable it by staying. By that I mean, just by my very presence, he could continue to abuse. That's why I strongly encourage No Contact.

It's hard to explain in a short period of time. It's taken me a couple of years to get a really good understanding of it and an awareness of when I'm on it. One of my teachers says we are human so no matter how much work we do, we're always gonna be visiting the triangle, lol.

Bax, it actually is a good fit for abuse. I encourage you to read the book I recommended for a better understanding of how it fits w/abuse.

I believe you, True.

Maybe in contradiction. I also believe that some people are just evil. This possibly puts the psychological and spiritual perspectives in separate camps, but I believe they can be reconciled.

I think it was Martha Stout, a Harvard psychologist who wrote in her book, "The Sociopath Next Door," that sociopathy is the place where the spiritual and psychological perspectives meet. I believed that even before she wrote the book. But I have always given higher credit to the spiritual in all of life.

This has worked out for me for exactly 10 years of my life (out of 62 years). These were my sociopath-free years between my husband and my recent ex. My mother was out of my life during those years. Not surprisingly, she wedged her way back in while I was with the second sociopath. Life is like that. So...

I am going to give this triangle concept a serious look.

Thanks True and Bax.

I really liked the paragraph which commented that the way out of the triangle was through the Persecutor role - that is, once we start to insist upon "No", the persecutors in our lives will see us as a direct threat, the rescuers will be horrified that we aren't allowing them to save us anymore, and the victims will be certain we're just doing it to hurt them. Everyone who is comfortable on the triangle will see you as a bad guy for trying to get off of it - and in order to escape, you have to learn to be ok with that.

Thanks, this is really thought-provoking, though I haven't waded through the whole article yet.

Yes, Bax, that is totally where I am right now. Left the husband and I was so bad for not playing the same old role anymore because I was just fed up! It felt good to stand my ground for a change and those who had benefitted from my earlier behavior were pissed off about it.

But now I am on the defensive a lot! I don't want to fall back into the victim or rescuer role, though it is so natural to me. It sometimes doesn't show, but I say no, thanks, an awful lot to just about everybody. I think that eventually, we have to find a balance. Do you think it is really possible to stay completely off the triangle? What percentage of people never play these roles at all? And is it always a bad thing? Or only if it's taken to extremes? I think you would have to be a hermit to stay off completely. I'm in danger of going that route...

I brought it up, because my IC introduced me to a reframe of the triangle - a positive one with roles of Creator (as opposed to victim - the creator accepts that they are ultimately responsible for what they feel.) Challenger (as opposed to Persecutor - the Challenger provides resistance when appropriate, but does not overwhelm or fail to consider the capability of the other.) and Nurturer (as opposed to Rescuer - the Nurturer cultivates and encourages what is there, not try to negate or prevent.)

I'm still wrapping my head around them, both in terms of inter-personal and intra-personal relationships. She suggested that when I sat and accepted my sorrow, that was a nurturing act, when I stepped up and faced my own self delusions, that's the act of a challenger, and when I decided to take steps to change my behavior and my life, that was in the realm of creation.

The second triangle seems to be, at first blush, fully as complicated as the drama triangle, but I think it sounds like a far more pleasant place to be. Accepting the truth and working within the truth with confidence, not overriding the experience of others, yet not being overridden, myself... sounds good to me! :)

I like this too :)

Just commenting on the reframe: on the Myers Briggs personality test, I have continuously come out as an Empath (INFJ) for years. I therefore love the idea of the Nurturer - I just have to try and get used to turning it inwards as well as outwards.

The Challenger and Creator are very appealing too. I remember watching the film, "Good Will Hunting" with Matt Damon, where Robin Williams plays his therapist and defines a soul mate as, "Someone who challenges you." We could be our own best friend and do that for ourselves as well! And creating instead of feeling victimised makes a ton of sense.

Thanks so much for sharing the reframe and the article, Bax!

Yes, thanks for sharing the alternative triangle. It seems more empowering and less enmeshed. Now to the tough part of changing those patterns...

Hi Bax, I'm not familiar with the drama triangle concept, but I wanted to say I feel the same way you do about these gender stereotypes. They just have to go. I used to hate it when people talked about gold digging being a female trait because I had experienced financial abuse where I had lost a lot to a guy. But sadly people love giving the genders specific personality traits and it seems like both men and women enjoy it so that just sucks :/