To me, there is a huge difference between being honest and stating how you feel about something, and trying to hurt someone that hits the core of their heart. People often times don't realize the damage they have caused another by what they say. We don't know what someone has been through all of their life, what was said to them growing up, and how a message was intended. If you are aware that someone is sensitive to something that causes them hurt or pain, then common sense will tell you what to say and what not to say. Some people are hurt themselves and it helps them to make someone else feel as bad as they do. I have a friend that is so unhappy with her living conditions and the abuse her brother causes her, that she will make remarks to me that she truly wants to say to him but doesn't. Sometimes it takes moments to hurt someone, and years to get over it. Be kind to each other. Hugs GB

Yes bottled I often question this myself, just today I was telling my friend that if I had been more submissive he wouldn't be this way. I always question whether my strong will helps me in my relationships and I always get a resounding no. I believe sometimes I am really hard on the men that have been in my life, therefore I go back. And vice versa, they put up with my crap too.

If I had caved and not put my foot down, we'd still be together. :(

Thank you, Gramybear. Your response is a lot of what I was hoping to read. Sometimes I can dismiss the questions running through my head, and sometimes I can answer them pretty easily, but I still have a weak moment here and there where I start getting all philosophical in my brain in a way I probably don't need to right now. It helps that DS is around to help keep me grounded.

MendingToday, I hear you on that. While I know that it's good my relationship ended as soon as it did, because I don't even want to think about how bad it could have gotten judging by the patterns in the direction it was going, I feel like I could have afforded to be less reactive.

Every so often, in forums not directly related to abuse, I repeatedly run into statements along the lines of "someone can only make you feel as bad as you let them." I'm pretty sure that isn't meant for a victim unaware of what they were getting themselves into to take to heart, but it's difficult not to question it, especially after the person I was with repeatedly put down my level of "mental toughness." I know he was wrong and that's why I asserted myself against his claims, but then again, he "knew" he was right.

Bottled

I constantly question myself, doubt myself, and feel guilt. Counselling helped a lot as it validated all of my experiences and made me realise that there are many things that are not my fault at all. For instance, a two or three year old is not responsible for driving their mother crazy, causing her to collapse in a heap, or to lash out violently. This is non-negotiable. It is impossible that I was such a devil child especially considering that when I started school, my teachers all praised me and said that if all students were like me, school would be a breeze. This is not a devil child. This is a child being abused by their mother.

We all question and doubt ourselves because we have, at one time or another, been shouldered with blame that was not ours to have. If you have noticed, most abusers do not question themselves. They simply blame everyone else. They are faultless i their eyes.

We are on the other side of this coin. We blame ourselves too much, we take on more responsibility than we should, and we doubt ourselves beyond reasonable doubt. This is definitely a common theme on these boards.

Sending you blessings and healing!

Maryjan, I very much appreciate you sharing. Sometimes coming here I feel "lucky" in that I was older, in therapy, and able to identify my ex as abusive relatively early on. Instead of taking on the blame when he cried in front of his family saying "She did this to me," it just blew my mind. Sometimes I can find forgiveness for myself, thinking, of course when someone was left as frustrated with his crap as I was they'd react. But then I get to thinking, I wanted him to take responsibility for his own behavior, so shouldn't I completely own my own? It wouldn't be fair for me to say he made me do any of the bad things I did, but for a long time I did feel that way.

I was just thinking about the guilt side of this yesterday. And I do understand what you're all saying.

Frequently, I feel embarrassed FOR someone who is doing something abusive or inappropriate, even (especially?) if they are doing it to me. And that often bleeds over into me feeling a magnetic pull to accept blame for it, because I don't want them to be the one to suffer because of what they have done. I have also never been good at remaining objective when seeing a sad and apparently contrite face, even if it is just an act, which makes the above worse.

My abusers have all pulled me into an almost manic sort of state where, during the worst of it, I would go up and down perpetually between crying for THEIR misfortune and looking for ways to fight back/being happy that I had managed to stick it to them and lessen their "power".

I try to relieve myself of the guilt by recognising what a huge mess that was for them to put me in and, crucially, that nobody I have known who is a NON-abuser has ever put me in the middle of that sort of mess long term. I've been lucky enough to have some colleagues, bosses, and other people from whom I have been able to analyse the vibe a lot, and it's totally different from that which the abusers gave out. I don't react the same way to them, or not really (give or take a few triggers).

Any time I find myself in that rapidly vacillating state I think, "Whoa, hang on... Who/what put me there? Who have I interacted with or been around today?" Almost every time, I have been able to trace it right back to someone who either turned out to have a consistent pattern of behaviour the same as one of my abusers, or who did something I hadn't experienced before but that reached my radar because my gut knew it was still an abusive tactic in an unfamiliar form.

That's just what happens to and helps me personally.

I have wondered that for many years, and now I know it really did happen and is happening now, I can see it.

I think that is how covert abuse works.If you knew exactly what was happening it wouldn't be so effective.

The wondering if the
abuse was real,
was why I developed
the Clarifying Index
Card exercise in
the first place.

After I saw the stack
of cards that piled up,
I was no longer confused,
nor could I deny that it had
really happened.