Okay, you would like some clarity on this because contact has made things a little foggy again, so let me break some of down as far as what I see.

Abusers LIE, just because he says he's doing all those things you wanted him to do, doesn't mean he's doing them. Even if he IS doing them-they're not doing him any good what-so-ever because every single part of his interaction you described was ABUSE.

First-he manipulated contact with you through a mutual friend. It was a total ploy to hoover you. It is crystal clear it was a manipulation by the anger he expressed right out of the gate. You see, he's got things to say and he wasn't getting a chance to say them-it matters not one little bit if you are interested in hearing them or not. The relationship is OVER, you are not responsible for his feelings, YOU NEVER WERE, he is still trying to make you responsible for them.

All that crap about you weren't right for each other, he was settling - unnecessary and hurtful. There is not point to saying that crap other than to hurt you. This man WANTS to inflict pain and he feels justified in doing it because you dared to leave him, and he's angry. More than angry-he wants his ability to emotionally kick the crap out of another person back, and he's taking that opportunity he's gotten by talking to you. He will NEVER get it all out - the more he does says that kind of crap the more he feels entitled to do it-it will just feed itself.

This statement here-"I just want to feel like if I ever ran into you in town that I wouldn't want to hurt you. That was not the case after our last conversation." Is SO typical abuser, it accomplishes so many abuser goals in one statement it's more than a red flag-this is who he is!

First of all it's a THREAT!!! That is why your hackles went up-that is your body's instinct for self preservation, and don't think he doesn't know it either-HE DOES. He wants you to feel scared. He also is making you feel responsible for this threat-by saying "that was not the case after our last conversation." He is implying that if you had done what he wanted you to do in that conversation, lay down and take his abuse, not create boundaries, not assert your own feelings and wants, if you'd admitted his abuse was justified and gave permission for further abuse by just accepting everything he said and did-that he wouldn't want to hurt you. Hon, he wants to hurt you, emotionally or physically-because he LIKES the feeling of power and the ego trip it gives him.

He does not want "his best friend" back-you were never his best friend, you were his victim. He is trying to hoover you. I doubt very much he is actually in counseling. Usually they change their language and tactics by what they learn in counseling. Sometimes their abuse gets worse because when their counselor challenges their behaviors they work even harder to justify them and victim blame and end up even anger and feeling even better about their right to abuse.

So take a look at this objectively-because what the next girl is going to get it abuse just like you've dealt with and are still dealing with.

Please just get back on the horse, NC again.

I second everything cant said.

The whole interaction is textbook abuse from beginning to end. He hasn't changed, he isn't changing and he isn't looking to change. The conversation would have gone a WHOLE lot differently if he were genuinely working with a counsellor to change, even if he hadn't made much progress yet.

So many times I have seen this: "Now I'm scared the next girl will get a better version of him". The truth is, the next girl will get a slightly different version of him - you got away, he will try harder to make sure the next girl isn't so lucky. But even if I'm wrong, even if he does treat the next girl well (chances of that are less than 1 in a million in my view), that doesn't change the fact that not only did he not treat you well when you were together, he's still either unable or unwilling (most likely both) to treat you well. The whole interaction was, as cant and I have both said, abusive - from the manipulative use of the mutual friend, to the anger, to the accusations, threats and finally the false hope he throws in at the end. All of it designed to get a reaction from you. He's still abusive to you, he hasn't changed, he isn't changing and the next girl will get him. The abuser. That's who he is.

Yes, talking to them again will set you up for them saying they miss you. But if their egos are bruised, then the monster is unleashed. Their words are so vile and hateful.

Also, what gives them the right to get so angry and we have to remain calm? I am sick of it.

It is better for you to stay away, bcz his "precious" ego is still bruised that u don't wNt him.

They won't change. He won't change. Like petulant children, throwing temoer tantrums. I feel for you bcz I kno what u r going thru.

My advice would be to google abusive narcissists. There are many articles on the web. That helps me sort out his behavior.

Also, use Ilene's clarifying index card exercise. Have u heard of that? By looking at the cards, it will remind you to stay away from a toxic, emotionally abusive ex.

http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Physical_Emotional_Abuse/forum/11590808-ilenes-clarifying-index-card-exercise

You can always start fresh with going No Contact again. So please don't be hard on yourself bcz you have come a long way. They are like snake charmers. Be on your guard.

Thank you everyone. My counselor really helped me with it. Unfortunately I got another message from him last night. He told me that he was in love with me and he told me some really mean things so I would think he was okay. He told me he wanted to marry me, and that losing me was the hardest thing he has been through. He blamed some of his fights with me on him stuffing his feelings inside (he mentioned two of his close friends that died years ago). He brought up the baby we lost and told me he was at the hospital all day because his friend had a baby and he got to hold it for 30 minutes and how amazing it was. He told me after I would have made an amazing mother. He just sounded so heartfelt and meaningful and I'm really struggling not to give in and just meet him. I'm wishing I never broke up with him right now.

ALL ABUSE again! Several days ago he was "settling" for you, and now he wants to marry you??? He still takes NO responsibly for his actions. That is the first step in real change-taking responsibility. Any time someone uses tragedies that have happened to them to justify abuse then it is a ploy. He stuffs his feelings??? Where is the evidence of that? Another typical abuse tactic, he is spewing his feelings all over the place all the time. Everything is about how this guy "feels"-his emotions rule his life. He feels angry and insists he vents it to you, he feels he misses you, he feels he wants you back, he feels, he feels, he feels. Ah, no stuffing at all. Another excuse, avoidance of responsibility.

And the baby thing, I'm so sorry about that loss. He knows this will be a hot button for you, I'm sure a loving family and a baby was your dream. He is using it. I'm guessing he wasn't as supportive of you through that as he should have been?

I have no doubt it's all heartfelt and he means it-but he's clearly still an abuser. Abusers can have heartfelt feelings and emotions too. It doesn't mean they won't abuse you. They idealize you until you get into the day to day stressors and give and take or normal relationships, and then they start to villianize you because you are not measuring up to this idealized version of you they had in their head, where you meet their every need and never ask for your own needs to be met.

Hon ------

Many very wise and
valuable responses
here already. I'd like
to add on to something
that Livnd wrote, which was:

He hasn't changed, he isn't changing and he isn't looking to change.

My addition:

Even if he was actually
LOOKING to change,
the real-life instances
of abusers "turning
around" and becoming
NON-abusers is
infintessimal, so

Even if he was LOOKING
to change. . . and found
a WORLD CLASS therapist
whose specialty was
turning abusers around. . . .

he (with almost virtually
certainty). . . .
COULDN'T CHANGE.

I'm truly sorry for the loss
of your baby.

I hope sooner than later
you'll come to experience
the break up of this
relationship as
a bullet DODGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This:

(334) 832-4842

is the number of your
state's women's resources.
I urge you to give them a
call, and see if they might
be able to connect you
with a counselor to help
you get through this period.
It's support that would be
very valuable for you
right now. I hope
you'll give them
a call.

Please take good care
of yourself.

Sending you hugs
and wishes for
clarity and healing.

Thanks for your responses everyone. The baby topic is definitely a hot button for me. I just couldn't get why he would use that as the reason he was writing to me. He definitely stressed me out beyond belief while I was pregnant and sometimes I wonder if that's why I lost the baby (had good heart beat, eveything was normal at 8 weeks) then when I went in for my 12 week US found out it had just died. He apologized for that and told me I would have made such a good mom, that he should have been there for me, etc. I know it's dumb because babies don't fix things, but I romanticize what it would have been like having that baby and wondering if it would have changed him for the better.

Babies actually frequently cause abuse to escalate. I've heard it on here numerous times, experienced it myself, read studies about it. I am almost certain it would not have changed him for the better, most likely for the worst.

My ex got way worse during pregnancy and after. And as cant said, I'm nowhere near alone.

Abuse tends to escalate with every "hook" they think they have. So when you move in together, get engaged, get married, get pregnant, have a baby - each of these (in whatever order they occur) is seen by an abuser as another hook in their victim, another tie that makes it less likely the victim will just walk if their mask slips. So with each one, they try a little less to keep the mask in place. Add to that the fact that having a baby is just plain hard and brings lack of sleep, added stresses of all kinds, plus the baby takes focus away from the abuser (there is something in the world more important sometimes than the abuser and his moods, needs, wishes and desires) - all these things mean that a baby would most definitely not have changed him for the better. In fact it would have changed him for the worse.

I really am sorry for the pain you are going through. It's hard, it really is. But you won't make it easier by fantasising about what might have been. You need to live in what is - which is that he was and continues to be abusive towards you. That's flat out cruelty to contact you to talk about a baby in that way. And that's the reason - he knows it's a hot button for you, he knew it would get you fantasising about the happy family that might have been had you had the baby, and that it would have you possibly even thinking warm thoughts about him. Pure cruelty, pure manipulation.

Mine got worse after kids and the sh*tty part about that is he's still abusing me and will continue to do so until my kids are grown and beyond. If I had it to do over again, omg, don't get me started.

Be shut of this guy and find someone who deserves you! He is just trying a huge hoovering maneuver and will *not* value you once he's got you back!!