Parents of Adult Child Estrangement Community Group
Support online, with attempts to form regional in-person meeting clusters, for those parents who have experienced periods of serial or continuous estrangment by an adult child.
Good morning Ladies!
I had the pleasure.. and I mean it really WAS a pleasure... to meet three of the women who have posted on this and/or the PEACE site yesterday in Manhattan. Was my first time for any in-person meeting with another woman who has been subject of child estrangement.
Here are some of the things I either learned, or had more confirmed via feedback from these other women. (A couple are meant to be somewhat whimsical, while making the point.. hope no one gets offended.) Would LOVE to have a lively discussion about some/any of the below.. Go to town on this, but nicely, please:
1. There are definately "stages" in the estrangement process.. Those of us who have been estranged from our ECs longer tend to be somewhat more about "getting on with own life." Those of us who are more newly estranged can't quite "get it" about really, totally, letting go of the kid(s.)
2. One woman put it aptly, " They are adults.. we've done our job.. that would be true anyway.. time for them to get on with their lives and for us to get on with ours." To some of us,that may sound spot-on; to others, like a betrayl of the values they were raised with that would signify mutual obligations and/or reciprocity as we age.
3. It is obscenely expensive to dine-out in NYC! Thus, when planning in-person meetings with you, I will be keenly aware of plans that don't mean you have to take a second mortgage on your home to join-in. My sense is
that we have a variety of socio-econonomic status represented on these sites.. from affluent to just getting by. (I'm on the "just" end..) I question whether more women didn't participate b/c of the potential costs involved in meeting-up in 'Manahattan?' Even "locals"?
4. I hear that others have had trouble motivating online particpants to get out of their "comfort zone" of remaining anonomous (sp? I'm a TERRIBLE speller.. sorry, bear w. me..) to gather in person.. WHY IS THAT?
5. We agreed that child estrangement appears to happen much less frequently in certain ethnic homes: that it's something of a "Caucasian phenomena." Any thoughts on why that might be or not be true?
6. I learned ALOT about "parent alientation syndrome." I had personal experience with this when a friend's husband literaly bribed the judge in their custody case to award him full custody; and he bought his daughter a thousand buck gown for her high school prom.. So I knew that one parents can vilify the other or buy the kid(s) to the point where the kid(s) accept that parent's vision of reality (often not reality at all) and let-go of the other parent. However, i didn't have a name for it until I was given that name at dinner last evening. As a therapist, it IS very important that I go forward to educate whatever peers I can about this phenomena as well as about parent estrangement by adult children in general.
7. We had some minor discussion about whether everyone who participates in a site like this is authentic. and about the suicidal post we experienced a few weeks back. While I can, intellectually, see that it's reasonable that there are sick folks out there who don't have anything better to do than toy with women such as us, I would not change any of my personal online practices because of it. I found myself having to "up" my consideration for those who may have personal reason to be more skeptical than I do.
Your thoughts are encouraged.. NO censorship..
M.
I had the pleasure.. and I mean it really WAS a pleasure... to meet three of the women who have posted on this and/or the PEACE site yesterday in Manhattan. Was my first time for any in-person meeting with another woman who has been subject of child estrangement.
Here are some of the things I either learned, or had more confirmed via feedback from these other women. (A couple are meant to be somewhat whimsical, while making the point.. hope no one gets offended.) Would LOVE to have a lively discussion about some/any of the below.. Go to town on this, but nicely, please:
1. There are definately "stages" in the estrangement process.. Those of us who have been estranged from our ECs longer tend to be somewhat more about "getting on with own life." Those of us who are more newly estranged can't quite "get it" about really, totally, letting go of the kid(s.)
2. One woman put it aptly, " They are adults.. we've done our job.. that would be true anyway.. time for them to get on with their lives and for us to get on with ours." To some of us,that may sound spot-on; to others, like a betrayl of the values they were raised with that would signify mutual obligations and/or reciprocity as we age.
3. It is obscenely expensive to dine-out in NYC! Thus, when planning in-person meetings with you, I will be keenly aware of plans that don't mean you have to take a second mortgage on your home to join-in. My sense is
that we have a variety of socio-econonomic status represented on these sites.. from affluent to just getting by. (I'm on the "just" end..) I question whether more women didn't participate b/c of the potential costs involved in meeting-up in 'Manahattan?' Even "locals"?
4. I hear that others have had trouble motivating online particpants to get out of their "comfort zone" of remaining anonomous (sp? I'm a TERRIBLE speller.. sorry, bear w. me..) to gather in person.. WHY IS THAT?
5. We agreed that child estrangement appears to happen much less frequently in certain ethnic homes: that it's something of a "Caucasian phenomena." Any thoughts on why that might be or not be true?
6. I learned ALOT about "parent alientation syndrome." I had personal experience with this when a friend's husband literaly bribed the judge in their custody case to award him full custody; and he bought his daughter a thousand buck gown for her high school prom.. So I knew that one parents can vilify the other or buy the kid(s) to the point where the kid(s) accept that parent's vision of reality (often not reality at all) and let-go of the other parent. However, i didn't have a name for it until I was given that name at dinner last evening. As a therapist, it IS very important that I go forward to educate whatever peers I can about this phenomena as well as about parent estrangement by adult children in general.
7. We had some minor discussion about whether everyone who participates in a site like this is authentic. and about the suicidal post we experienced a few weeks back. While I can, intellectually, see that it's reasonable that there are sick folks out there who don't have anything better to do than toy with women such as us, I would not change any of my personal online practices because of it. I found myself having to "up" my consideration for those who may have personal reason to be more skeptical than I do.
Your thoughts are encouraged.. NO censorship..
M.
1.) Agreed. I think it's part of the normal healing process and each of us arrives there at our own pace.
2.) I would love nothing more than to return to the healthy loving relationship I once had with my son but I know that if I tried to initiate any kind of relationship with him at this point, it would only make things worse. I can't control him. If he does not want the relationship, there is nothing I can do but I am still entitled to live my life and try to find happiness even though it's difficult at times. So yes I've done my job. He is an adult and it's time to move on.
3.) Costs are a factor.
4.) I am not able to travel at present. But even if I was, I am probably in my anonymous comfort zone. Fairly new to the site so that may be a factor as well. I may feel differently in time.
5.) I can't have an opinion because I don't know anyone that this has happened to personally nor do I know enough of other cultures/races to be able to understand why.
6.) According to my son's girlfriend, she was a victim of parental alienation on her father's part who used gifts of cars, fancy parties, unlimited credit card spending, etc. She in turn, learned quite a bit from her father and used those same techniques to turn my ES against me. I think it's equally important for parents to learn about how abusive girlfriends/boyfriends play a huge role in EC' choices and alienating them from their families and friends. There are times when I read a post, I wonder whether the poster has even considered the possibility that theirs may be a case as well.
7.) I don't think everyone that participates on a site like this is authentic. I'll make no comment on the suicidal post, although I do have an opinion. I observe certain practices when posting but I don't feel a need to be overly cautious. Perhaps I am being too naïve.
Thakns for your reminder that ALL of us who want to meet-up should speak-up with ideas and constraints!!!
I know I told J. that I was hard-pressed for cash; but that since the only time that worked for me was the dinner, I was hell-bent on joining AFTER you gals had already selected your locale.
it's a tricky business this accomdating everyone's budget and likings. That's why I think it's gonna have to come down to one person doing the coordination after hearing ideas from all other potential participants.
Warmest Regards,
M.
It was so freeing to just be with others who totally understand the complexities of having kid difficulties. At the end of the time, I had a much broader perspective. It feels like I "sped away" from the trainwreck of estrangement, and when I looked in the rear view mirror... I saw the mess getting smaller and smaller in the horizon.
Are you feeling like you're "over" your estrangement's impact on you at this point?
The Op author, Thurlibier (Margaret) and I had some phone conversations before we all met. In fact I decided I would make the trip from California to NYC after our first phone call that went something like this: We got thru the niceties and then told our particular situations. then for some reason she shared with me some things that were truly disturbing to her and to anyone who is a parent, really. I was aware of how candid that moment was and I, in turn, shared something that had been dogging me for the longest time.. And her reaction, is what made my decision on the spot.
My second daughter (25 now) owes 29k in student loans that I signed for her. I think I may have mentioned it here or elsewhere on theses discussions that that is my SINGLE BIGGEST REGRET OF ALL TIMES. I was a fool and I never miss an opportunity to warn other unsuspecting parents of entitled snobbish children.
Well a few years back before I actually understood things.... thank you, thank you, all... for the education...My father passed away and left an inheritance. I was separated at the time and one by one my three adult children had moved out of the family home and started living their own lives in their own places. I had really been very worried about finances up until that point, but now suddenly I had an inheritance and I didn't need to be preoccupied with "making it"... now I had a good safety net. I thought about the kids and about their fairly recent emancipations... and I approached each of the three of them. "If you got some cash... maybe a thousand dollars, what would you use it on?"
My oldest/daughter was very interested and said she would use it to pay off a credit card. My youngest/son said he would put it in savings so he wouldn't have to worry so much about "making it" - which I could obviously relate to. And when I approached my middle child/daughter - she called me a bitch and said I was manipulative and that I just wanted to control her with strings attached to the money.
Huh?? You've got to be..... wait... wha?????
So I tell her, that obviously I caught her by surprise, and why don't we talk about it again... after she has time to think on it a bit. and then I drop the subject. everything goes back to normal.
Some time passes.. probably about a week, and anyone who knows me knows that I like to take care of my business in a quick fashion. Once I decide to do something, I want to execute it in a quick and timely fashion. She comes to pick me up and we are going to have lunch at our favorite thai restaurant. Its about a 5 minute drive from my home. We sit down, order, we are having a fun time just catching up a bit... when I decide this is probably an excellent time to revisit the gift I would like to give my kids.
I approach it carefully, I know you've had some time now to think about it... and I would like to know if you have reconsidered the gift that I am offering to you and your brother and sister.....
and really... I am not sure what I said after that, if anything, because she came back at me with a vengeance again accusing me of being some awful person who has to control everything and I am worthless etc... it was quite the tirade.. and then she left. ran out to her car. and by the time I realize she was leaving.. I am out in the parking lot. trying to stay calm.. but also trying to get her to stop and just take me home. She basically abandons me. I go back in and the food is not even ready yet. when it is, I have it put into go containers, call my son and ask for a ride home.
At this point in the story, this is where I am completely baffled and confused and wondering, what did I do that was so offensive, why in the world did I deserve that kind of treatment?
And Margaret just laughs out loud! Really laughs! And I know she "gets it". And for the first time when I think about the ridiculous part of my daughter, I am relieved. And that is when I decide I must meet up with this woman and her friends for the weekend.
It was like a convention of dwarfs, to me. NO ONE but a little person knows what its like to be a dwarf. So when they have their reunions/conventions... they don't need to explain their life challenges in a big person world, instead they can just focus in on enjoying themselves. It was very much like that. No need to justify or figure out the mistreatment and other burdens of estrangement....Its already understood.
Hope we cross paths again sometime in the forseeable future,
M.