Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
Hi! I have been reading posts and responding to some (and thank you on some of my posts - saw your responses!). It brought up some questions in my mind that I will try to ask.
Do you think you view and participate in relationships the way you used to? (Pre N break)
Have any of your relationships that are older than the N relationship broken off or you see them/relate to them in a different way, as a result of changed perceptions or emotions?
Do you feel lonelier or maybe, "less engaged" with people than you used to?
Or do you maybe find more satisfaction in your other relationships, as a result or since the break?
For me, I think some of the things that have come about is that I DO feel lonelier, in some respects. In my situation, though I think it is more a function of my geographical environment (I find that rural areas, upheavals are maybe more "threatening" and it might therefore be easier for people to ignore people having problems that don't involve "common" disasters like a fire or weather.) I think that I have had a lot of misperceptions about people and relationships in the past; I mistook acquaintances for friends; I also thought other people had their lives much more "together" than I did/do and therefore, other people I saw as better, stronger, smarter, more desirable ... whatever. However, since I can also remember back to after the last divorce, I can say with certainty that though I think some perceptions and relationship changes occur or can occur after N break, I actually think the relationships I started were more honest and authentic and surprisingly, as I think back, people were often doing kind and unexpected things or reciprocating more than I was used to.
But I have my moments when I feel like I am all alone ... I don't want to call people, I am waiting for them to call (yeah, part of it is I know the subject will come up and UNFORTUNATELY, it has been about the ONLY thing going on in life the last two years, don't want to "inflict" on anyone!). But one neat thing I have learned is that most people, if you do get to know them, have problems too ... that is one thing I have had an easier time (usually) keeping in my mind. So sometimes, I have finally picked up the phone or made contact and found out that someone has gone through something rough themself, and they get a chance to unburden and I can express some caring.
And also, some of the time, someone I know who's been going through rough times gets back into my mind and it helps my perspective ... I realize people get busy, distracted and all else, they aren't ignoring or expressing they don't care. I usually feel sort of bad that I let a whole bunch of other, unimportant stuff come between me and my relationships when that happens. And not in a beating up kind of way; I just think that too is a result of some perception changes ... people do matter and we can help others, by our presence and encouragement and such. Not as a "save the world" kind of deal, just that trying to work on myself and be invested in the relationships and activities and such that I connect with.
And of course, on the "man question"; I have had a few "nice" interactions that have made me think positively in terms of future, but not in a hurry or even desiring to date, per se (a man I could get into some good conversations with might be another matter! And that could lead to things besides conversations ... like ... dating!!). And sometimes, I feel almost scared to death; probably because I ask myself what the real chances are of having "the relationship from hell" are ... if I KNEW that 75% of people who are married/together love each other, etc., I doubt I would feel as nervous ... That is one thing that changed for me, big-time ... I can't imagine "getting married" or "staying married" as a stepping stone to financial, social or career success and security or for "sex without consequences" or someone to "take care of me". I thought love was sort of THE necessary ingredient, living skills and good sense would make things easier and productive ....
So I am sort of wondering how you have changed, in terms of how you relate with others .... from any and all aspects you would care to share ... or if you have any questions to add. I suppose some changes might be a function of where a person is in terms of the break, and getting through all the consequences that have resulted. So I am hopeful that will give people an encouragement, as well as bring up some things that maybe we all go through but people feel like they are "the only one" cause it doesn't get a lot of discussion.
Do you think you view and participate in relationships the way you used to? (Pre N break)
Have any of your relationships that are older than the N relationship broken off or you see them/relate to them in a different way, as a result of changed perceptions or emotions?
Do you feel lonelier or maybe, "less engaged" with people than you used to?
Or do you maybe find more satisfaction in your other relationships, as a result or since the break?
For me, I think some of the things that have come about is that I DO feel lonelier, in some respects. In my situation, though I think it is more a function of my geographical environment (I find that rural areas, upheavals are maybe more "threatening" and it might therefore be easier for people to ignore people having problems that don't involve "common" disasters like a fire or weather.) I think that I have had a lot of misperceptions about people and relationships in the past; I mistook acquaintances for friends; I also thought other people had their lives much more "together" than I did/do and therefore, other people I saw as better, stronger, smarter, more desirable ... whatever. However, since I can also remember back to after the last divorce, I can say with certainty that though I think some perceptions and relationship changes occur or can occur after N break, I actually think the relationships I started were more honest and authentic and surprisingly, as I think back, people were often doing kind and unexpected things or reciprocating more than I was used to.
But I have my moments when I feel like I am all alone ... I don't want to call people, I am waiting for them to call (yeah, part of it is I know the subject will come up and UNFORTUNATELY, it has been about the ONLY thing going on in life the last two years, don't want to "inflict" on anyone!). But one neat thing I have learned is that most people, if you do get to know them, have problems too ... that is one thing I have had an easier time (usually) keeping in my mind. So sometimes, I have finally picked up the phone or made contact and found out that someone has gone through something rough themself, and they get a chance to unburden and I can express some caring.
And also, some of the time, someone I know who's been going through rough times gets back into my mind and it helps my perspective ... I realize people get busy, distracted and all else, they aren't ignoring or expressing they don't care. I usually feel sort of bad that I let a whole bunch of other, unimportant stuff come between me and my relationships when that happens. And not in a beating up kind of way; I just think that too is a result of some perception changes ... people do matter and we can help others, by our presence and encouragement and such. Not as a "save the world" kind of deal, just that trying to work on myself and be invested in the relationships and activities and such that I connect with.
And of course, on the "man question"; I have had a few "nice" interactions that have made me think positively in terms of future, but not in a hurry or even desiring to date, per se (a man I could get into some good conversations with might be another matter! And that could lead to things besides conversations ... like ... dating!!). And sometimes, I feel almost scared to death; probably because I ask myself what the real chances are of having "the relationship from hell" are ... if I KNEW that 75% of people who are married/together love each other, etc., I doubt I would feel as nervous ... That is one thing that changed for me, big-time ... I can't imagine "getting married" or "staying married" as a stepping stone to financial, social or career success and security or for "sex without consequences" or someone to "take care of me". I thought love was sort of THE necessary ingredient, living skills and good sense would make things easier and productive ....
So I am sort of wondering how you have changed, in terms of how you relate with others .... from any and all aspects you would care to share ... or if you have any questions to add. I suppose some changes might be a function of where a person is in terms of the break, and getting through all the consequences that have resulted. So I am hopeful that will give people an encouragement, as well as bring up some things that maybe we all go through but people feel like they are "the only one" cause it doesn't get a lot of discussion.
So far, he's been proving safe enough for me to spend my weekends with. I am glad that he lives an hour away. Before last N relationship, I would have wanted to see this guy ALL the time! and do everything with him and on his terms. Now, I keep him at a distance.
But he fits all of my criteria. 6'5", has hair, no beer belly, nice smile, really muscular and fit for 53 years old. We have so many of the same quirks and likes. And he isn't modeling his quirks and likes after me, because I keep my cards pretty close to my chest. He openly shows me his cards and I'm surprised as to how much alike we are in our thinking.
I'm sure making him work for my trust, that's for sure. This relationship is going to be on MY terms. If he doesn't like it, then he can go elsewhere. That's the difference now. I'm not the girl that lets the man take the reins anymore. There's going to be a partnership in this thing called life; otherwise, it's a deal breaker for me.
Anyway, we'll see where it goes. I have learned how to stand on my own - and myself - and I have a lot of interests that keep me busy outside of a relationsihp. I'm not changing any of that for anyone. So far, this guy is genuinely interested and is respectful of my time alone - or with girlfriends. There hasn't been one put-down yet ... or manipulative diversion to do what he wants. I'm still trying to get used to it all.
So thanks, too, to you, Oldandwiser and Livelife, I think you are adding some good points. On having a lot of "really close friends" ... that is one I have been learning. I definitely try to "be a friend" but their are limits on how much time ... can you devote times "how many friends" you are trying to have. I read an article a ways back, too, that really gave a good description of different types of "friendships"; for the most part, many of our "friendships" nowadays are more "close acquaintances" ... we share an activity, interest or our children go to the same school and we are thrown together, maybe we go to the same place of worship, etc. But if one person or the other moves, often, the relationship is not kept up. And people gave good descriptions of some "lop sided" well, "friendships" (?) that seemingly benefit the other person more ... it seems okay at the time, EXCEPT that they have a lot of rules and restriction (or preferences) we either "go with" or we "go without" them ... I think we have to be willing to ask ourselves whether it's worthwhile or where our "limit" (boundary) is.
Ginebra: HI and welcome! I hope you will be able to learn more by coming here, there are often a lot of good articles and resources posted, some are in the "group news", I believe, whereas people post in the forums and there are some helpful sites that really supplement with explanations about some of the questions you are asking and more!
For you and Whadahay: I remember Oldandwiser discussing this in past and I think I may have seen articles at http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/list-of-posts/ about some of this: having trouble connecting, in general, or with someone "unlike" the previous type we were drawn to or became accustomed to. Again, a lot of it probably has to do with Stockholm syndrome/trauma bonding ... it can be hard or even impossible for us to access certain feeling states (in fact, I think the theory of "state dependent learning" might be useful in explaining some of it, as well, but haven't had time to look into it) UNLESS the criteria matches, closely enough, what we have learned to "expect" and "anticipate" in terms of romance, affection and etc.
A second part is to think of how an intimate betrayal is probably one of the most wounding ... PTSD is less common when a disaster is an "act of God", when it is a disaster/trauma caused by someone you don't know, it's still more traumatic than say, an earthquake or hurricane or fire ... because SOMEONE made it happen, maybe plotted to hurt one or more people. When it is someone you trust and who you believe cares for you, it can truly shatter nearly every expectation you have held about "how the world works" or "what people are like". When you see it from that context, it starts to make some sense.
Ginebra, you might feel "closed off" due to numbing/dissociative processes that are designed to protect you, in terms of letting you function without feeling all sorts of pain that might be overwhelming. And even for you, Whadahay, there may be some of this at work. Since there is a lot of conflicting information and sometimes not a lot of information, it can be hard sometimes to sort out exactly what is going on ... part of what must happen is a "mindful" re-learning and exposure process. You too sound like you are doing well, in that you are aware of what you are experiencing and how it is affecting/limiting you. But if you are that far along, then staying behind that "invisible wall" might be really frustrating and put a damper not only on potentially, a healthy love relationship, but other things that might be really satisfying in life.
From my past experience, I remember back in 1998, I was put on a medication as a trial and what happened is that all of a sudden and for the 1st time, I REALLY became aware of that "invisible wall" - it fell down. I was more outgoing and so on, but then I became assertive with NH and his mother, etc and the gaslighting and control REALLY started up in earnest ... I can say, though that this time around, I fared better, maybe because I had the "practice" the first time around (?) and this time around, I had already had YEARS to think through everybody's arguments, my own positions and do one heck of a lot of research ... so when I was pushed at this time, I was not crumbling or falling into panic.
So again, I have not "gotten there" by a long shot, but it seems one of the things that helps is to really know yourself, be able to look at this "invisible wall" or "inability" to relate as a mechanism to protect you ...but see it to as something like "training wheels" - believe in yourself and get enough information to stand on solid ground ... you can learn (or re-learn) how to love, to relate and interact ... take some "acceptable risks"; what you are doing, Whadahay, sounds good in that you aren't saying, "oops, no fireworks, sayonara". While I was in the pre-divorce/divorce process last time, I found out the "fireworks" were still there, but they didn't jump up and announce themselves (in me) until I had gotten to know the person for well over a year ... all I can say is, "oh, my", I still remember "the moment". Many of us have not, probably, ever had a relationship that went on a really long time before the "decision" whether or not to go on, came up ...
In terms of "people" in general, I had to force myself through a lot of fear/indifference at times, but am glad I did. Personally, sitting here in the boonies where there's not a lot of opportunity for interaction, I feel like I am stagnating in that department and am looking forward to MAKING more opportunities by getting involved with people as I can. I think sometimes it is easy to fall back to our ruts, just like dieting or exercise or anything else ... and I don't say that as a slam. I just mean that often times, we tend more toward "the familiar" just because that is what humans do. But experience and a lot of what I read, and other people here, encourage to keep trying, because a lot of progress is invisible (because of it being emotional/mental) and we do end up starting to gain confidence and a whole lot else and not only start attracting better, but also, become accepting ONLY of better. So it maybe seems that there are a lot of Ns or hurtful people or whatever, but only because you are being mindful (good for you!!); eventually, that will be internalized and act like radar and you won't "notice" the Ns so much because once you "detect" you will steer yourself away. Hope that all makes sense and encouraging ... and I am seeing that there is a lot more to it!