Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
Hi! I have been reading posts and responding to some (and thank you on some of my posts - saw your responses!). It brought up some questions in my mind that I will try to ask.
Do you think you view and participate in relationships the way you used to? (Pre N break)
Have any of your relationships that are older than the N relationship broken off or you see them/relate to them in a different way, as a result of changed perceptions or emotions?
Do you feel lonelier or maybe, "less engaged" with people than you used to?
Or do you maybe find more satisfaction in your other relationships, as a result or since the break?
For me, I think some of the things that have come about is that I DO feel lonelier, in some respects. In my situation, though I think it is more a function of my geographical environment (I find that rural areas, upheavals are maybe more "threatening" and it might therefore be easier for people to ignore people having problems that don't involve "common" disasters like a fire or weather.) I think that I have had a lot of misperceptions about people and relationships in the past; I mistook acquaintances for friends; I also thought other people had their lives much more "together" than I did/do and therefore, other people I saw as better, stronger, smarter, more desirable ... whatever. However, since I can also remember back to after the last divorce, I can say with certainty that though I think some perceptions and relationship changes occur or can occur after N break, I actually think the relationships I started were more honest and authentic and surprisingly, as I think back, people were often doing kind and unexpected things or reciprocating more than I was used to.
But I have my moments when I feel like I am all alone ... I don't want to call people, I am waiting for them to call (yeah, part of it is I know the subject will come up and UNFORTUNATELY, it has been about the ONLY thing going on in life the last two years, don't want to "inflict" on anyone!). But one neat thing I have learned is that most people, if you do get to know them, have problems too ... that is one thing I have had an easier time (usually) keeping in my mind. So sometimes, I have finally picked up the phone or made contact and found out that someone has gone through something rough themself, and they get a chance to unburden and I can express some caring.
And also, some of the time, someone I know who's been going through rough times gets back into my mind and it helps my perspective ... I realize people get busy, distracted and all else, they aren't ignoring or expressing they don't care. I usually feel sort of bad that I let a whole bunch of other, unimportant stuff come between me and my relationships when that happens. And not in a beating up kind of way; I just think that too is a result of some perception changes ... people do matter and we can help others, by our presence and encouragement and such. Not as a "save the world" kind of deal, just that trying to work on myself and be invested in the relationships and activities and such that I connect with.
And of course, on the "man question"; I have had a few "nice" interactions that have made me think positively in terms of future, but not in a hurry or even desiring to date, per se (a man I could get into some good conversations with might be another matter! And that could lead to things besides conversations ... like ... dating!!). And sometimes, I feel almost scared to death; probably because I ask myself what the real chances are of having "the relationship from hell" are ... if I KNEW that 75% of people who are married/together love each other, etc., I doubt I would feel as nervous ... That is one thing that changed for me, big-time ... I can't imagine "getting married" or "staying married" as a stepping stone to financial, social or career success and security or for "sex without consequences" or someone to "take care of me". I thought love was sort of THE necessary ingredient, living skills and good sense would make things easier and productive ....
So I am sort of wondering how you have changed, in terms of how you relate with others .... from any and all aspects you would care to share ... or if you have any questions to add. I suppose some changes might be a function of where a person is in terms of the break, and getting through all the consequences that have resulted. So I am hopeful that will give people an encouragement, as well as bring up some things that maybe we all go through but people feel like they are "the only one" cause it doesn't get a lot of discussion.
Do you think you view and participate in relationships the way you used to? (Pre N break)
Have any of your relationships that are older than the N relationship broken off or you see them/relate to them in a different way, as a result of changed perceptions or emotions?
Do you feel lonelier or maybe, "less engaged" with people than you used to?
Or do you maybe find more satisfaction in your other relationships, as a result or since the break?
For me, I think some of the things that have come about is that I DO feel lonelier, in some respects. In my situation, though I think it is more a function of my geographical environment (I find that rural areas, upheavals are maybe more "threatening" and it might therefore be easier for people to ignore people having problems that don't involve "common" disasters like a fire or weather.) I think that I have had a lot of misperceptions about people and relationships in the past; I mistook acquaintances for friends; I also thought other people had their lives much more "together" than I did/do and therefore, other people I saw as better, stronger, smarter, more desirable ... whatever. However, since I can also remember back to after the last divorce, I can say with certainty that though I think some perceptions and relationship changes occur or can occur after N break, I actually think the relationships I started were more honest and authentic and surprisingly, as I think back, people were often doing kind and unexpected things or reciprocating more than I was used to.
But I have my moments when I feel like I am all alone ... I don't want to call people, I am waiting for them to call (yeah, part of it is I know the subject will come up and UNFORTUNATELY, it has been about the ONLY thing going on in life the last two years, don't want to "inflict" on anyone!). But one neat thing I have learned is that most people, if you do get to know them, have problems too ... that is one thing I have had an easier time (usually) keeping in my mind. So sometimes, I have finally picked up the phone or made contact and found out that someone has gone through something rough themself, and they get a chance to unburden and I can express some caring.
And also, some of the time, someone I know who's been going through rough times gets back into my mind and it helps my perspective ... I realize people get busy, distracted and all else, they aren't ignoring or expressing they don't care. I usually feel sort of bad that I let a whole bunch of other, unimportant stuff come between me and my relationships when that happens. And not in a beating up kind of way; I just think that too is a result of some perception changes ... people do matter and we can help others, by our presence and encouragement and such. Not as a "save the world" kind of deal, just that trying to work on myself and be invested in the relationships and activities and such that I connect with.
And of course, on the "man question"; I have had a few "nice" interactions that have made me think positively in terms of future, but not in a hurry or even desiring to date, per se (a man I could get into some good conversations with might be another matter! And that could lead to things besides conversations ... like ... dating!!). And sometimes, I feel almost scared to death; probably because I ask myself what the real chances are of having "the relationship from hell" are ... if I KNEW that 75% of people who are married/together love each other, etc., I doubt I would feel as nervous ... That is one thing that changed for me, big-time ... I can't imagine "getting married" or "staying married" as a stepping stone to financial, social or career success and security or for "sex without consequences" or someone to "take care of me". I thought love was sort of THE necessary ingredient, living skills and good sense would make things easier and productive ....
So I am sort of wondering how you have changed, in terms of how you relate with others .... from any and all aspects you would care to share ... or if you have any questions to add. I suppose some changes might be a function of where a person is in terms of the break, and getting through all the consequences that have resulted. So I am hopeful that will give people an encouragement, as well as bring up some things that maybe we all go through but people feel like they are "the only one" cause it doesn't get a lot of discussion.
Excellent food for thoughtful discussion. First, the friend thing. Until very recently (less than a year ago) I had two long-term friends who I had considered my best friends for over 30 years. I moved 100+ miles away but I phoned or emailed every couple weeks and went to visit each of them several times a year. (THey do not know each other.) I shared my deepest thoughts with both of them. Both were very supportive when I divorced my exH of 17 years when he disclosed his 10-year affair with his secretary. Both women are married and both offered me a place to stay but I did not need to do that. Bottom line, both women were ladies I confided in and counted as more than family to me. After marrying the N, both relationships waned a little. The woman who is 10 years older than me called and emailed less. I put it down to the fact that she has repeated serious health issues and also now spends 1/2 the year 1000+ miles away. Still, she would visit here and interact with the NH ocassionally. We are still very close, share everything, but do not see each other as often. When we do get together it is without our husbands and we have marathon talks. She is like a sister. She sees the NH for what he is and will listen and advise. She is truly my best friend. The woman who is 15 years yoiunger than me stayed in close contact longer and we shared even more. My NH met her once when we drove down to take her and her family to dinner. About a year later, the NH made a judgemental remark about her on the phone . . . and our relationship has never been the same. We emailed and I visited her once or twice a year over the next two years, but she no longer seemed connected. I stopped talking about my problems, etc. and we would just spend the day shopping. Her children grew to be teenagers and she is very busy. Still suddently within the last year she has stopped responding to my emails and does not return my phone calls. This hurt me very much. The last few emails that I sent her just said something like, "I miss you. Call me so we can chat." Apparently she just joined a church as she sent back a Bible verse but never called. I have sent a dozen or so more emails and left a half dozen voice mails . . . nothing. I miss her. Just makes me appreciate my other longterm friend even more. It also makes me appreciate all my friends here, and that includes you, Dadda. Hugs.
As for the man/dating thing. I am still married to the NH but if I am ever single again, I will not let the bad experiences with NH to stop me from using my new found skills to select and trust a worthy man. I love being married, love having a trustworthy, affectionate, caring male in my life. I won't judge all men by the N experience . . . I would look at each man indivudually from a new, more informed viewpoint.
Now, a third friend that I had before my relationship with my xN is a totally different story. She and I were travel buddies. We went to Mexico three times together. The third time we stayed at a three-star hotel that I loved and she hated so it made for a not so, so great trip because she was whining and complaining about everything. We had fun, but I went into my cancer shell and bit my tongue a lot because she venting so much.
When I first got together with my xN, she never met him but let me know by email that she wanted nothing to do with me or him while i was dating this "bum." So afterward when we talked, she would change the subject when I brought him up, etc...
Last night, it had been over a month since I asked her to call me because of this stress leave that I am on from work. She works part-time at my job. Nothing. Yesterday I call her iphone and left a message, no return call. So I messaged her on FB and let her know that we are no longer friends because her behaviour would have me believing that she no longer valued our friendship. She messaged me back saying we haven't been friends for a while since I CHOSE my ex over her. So I messaged back saying that she's the one who gave the ultimatum at the time, etc... More was said but that's the jist. I may be creating unneeded drama in my life but I have decided to value myself and her ignoring me needed to be called out because of our past relationship and I wanted to do it three weeks ago and waited until now when there was still no response.
Anyway, I'm not sad about our lose of friendship because it's been wierd this last year and it's over on her side because I didn't obey her wishes (another N?). I wanted to know where we stand in life and what she was thinking. Knowledge is power and I don't have to waste any more energy on trying to rekindle our friendship now.
I had one female friend whom lived here, I've known her for 20 years. My ex rented an apartment off of her Parents and lived right beside her. She triggers me and since I ended things with my ex I had made a conscious choice to stay away from her. Not that it was her fault but we all socialized together and she lived right beside him. She understood and didn't take it personal. Even after he moved away from there and to a different city I still couldn't really face her. Just hearing her voice would make me think of him. It was terrible. I was almost happy when she moved to Ottawa, not that I hate her or don't love her because I do, very much. It was just simpler, for me. She then moved back to the area but to the same City my ex had moved too. I wrote about that, her texting me telling me she saw him in the same rehab clinic that her ex husband was in. Anyway, that set me back yet again so my relationship with her has drastically changed. I no longer feel comfort with her and it's so sad because she was my only long time female friend, I mean, we met in grade 9, we had been roommates as teenagers and young adults. We'd been through allot together.
I hadn't poke to her after that text and then last week she kept texting me asking how I was and I just didn't answer back because I was still hurt. Finally she text back again and said that she loved me and that her intent was never to hurt me and that she was so very sorry. I text her back, told her I loved her too but that I no longer wanted to talk about him or this situation. And that was that.
Now, I'm friendless. I've only been back in the country, three years this coming April. Coming back from my 10 year stay in the U.S was horrible, I miss my friends back there. I came home to nothing. Just my family and we're so spread out, I've still not seen my one brother and it's going on 13 years.
Because I work so much., I just don't have time to meet people. I've tried, I've tried to make connections and they've all fallen flat. I've even attempted male friends something I don't normally do but I found myself getting all weird about it. Mainly because of they way he was acting, I just don't trust men at all, even on a friendship level. If they lie, it pisses me off, if they blow me off in any way it pisses me off, if they tell me stories about how they don't want a relationship and how damaged they've been and then two months later they are seemingly starting something with some other woman, that pisses me off. Not because I wanted something more, but because there was no connection, no sharing on his part and it just feels like lies.... you know?
This loneliness is pretty much unbearable right now and I just don't know how to make it stop. How to be okay with just me. Somehow I don't think it's in my nature to be alone. My Psychiatrist told me that being alone isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with needing friendship, companionship and humane touch. I miss being held. I missing having someone to talk to about my day. I miss having a movie companion. I miss having someone to go for walks with me. I miss playing scrabble..... you know, just that simple stuff that is gone, I miss it. I don't miss "him" I just miss the interaction with another person.
I look out my window here and I feel like I'm in a prison. I look across the highway, into the field and I can view the old dilapidated drive in that's set back afar. It looks about as lonely as I feel.
The men friends ... one was a landlord (he owned the house and I rented room w/bath) and the other I met in a park ... which reminds me too of what Snowy said, not the kind of person I'd normally get to know. I think back and yes, I was somewhat cautious, but these two in particular ended being a friend because they did not play mind games and stuff. So don't know whether, Snowy, this person who is boarding is good friend material, but I say that maybe even sometimes with friendships we need to step outside our "normal" comfort zone? If nothing else, I learn something from people who aren't like me; as I think back, I have sometimes had some fairly long-term friendships that were pretty good and enjoyable with some people who weren't much like me in terms of personality.
Crystalcave, it sounds to me like ultimately, you made the right call. In fact, that is my "criteria" for determining N now ... if I don't follow the script, I get blackballed, shunned, ousted whatever. And considering how you put up with the complaining! Yikes ... I can understand that when people get in relationships, sometimes the dynamics of their other friendships change. I guess that is what made me wonder ... if getting out from the N relationship makes us see and respond in other relationships differently.
Some of what I'm hearing too, reminds me of "how I was" the first year, too, that I was divorced from N the first time. I was actually pretty prickly with people; I would say my defenses were up, although yes, I longed for connection. Maybe some of that depends on other stuff, too. Personally, I think that it took my figuring out that other people weren't "as good and perfect" as I had set them up in my mind ... and that didn't come til after I was gone, actually. I'm not saying that's what anyone is going through, although having the defenses up would make sense. Looking back, though at times I was a bit oversensitive ... I even quit a job at the college library because a student from a foreign country was hired and I had to do some of his training and he just kept telling me how I'd surely get married again ... not how I'd handle it given more time and healing, for sure.
It sounds like Quepasa and Crystalcave, you have both benefitted from having friends who were still around and supportive. And thank you, too for counting me in there.
I hope some other people will have something to add, especially because it might be encouraging stuff or maybe it can be sort of normal, especially depending on life circumstances, to go through a rough period after the break.
I never had friends when growing up. I am the true loner for the most part. I do like people but I'm told I put up an invisible barrier to protect myself. I was either the bosses daughter or the boss when I worked for family. Every job I've worked at I'm told how unique I am. I work to my own standards and they are high.
This town is a quirky little town. I was shunned on several jobs because I had horses or because of where the ex worked. This little snobby town has a caste system from way back. The rich and the not so rich combined with the locals and I haven't found my place yet.
As far as the ex we never socialized with his fellow workers. Just before we split up I would hear about social events for the new people at work and wondered why we never had those. I truly believe the ex turned down a lot of those without ever telling me. With the horses he managed to put me in rural deserted areas an hour from where he worked. I never met any of the people he worked with. One time in 33 years we went out to eat one night with another couple. They had rented me their cabin for the summer when I was trying to get on this land. We took them out as a thank you. I was struck by how articulate the ex was and I was in awe of how charming he could be. In 33 years I had never seen him like this. This woman was a high powered researcher at one of the major hospitals in the area and they talked about their overseas travels. He was on his best behavior and trying to impress.
We moved so much when I was young and then married to the N that I really didn't have time to make friends. I had one friend for a little while and when she found out I was a bit older I never heard from her again. I do have acquaintices and my daughter lives in this state with baby Zoe. But they are moving at the end of the month so I will once again be alone.
I just happened to be what the ex was looking for and I didn't require a lot of attention and had no expectations of a social life. I did try but when I would volunteer for things connected to his work I never seemed to get a call to help. I now know that the ex stopped some of that. On the rare ocassion I would meet someone from his work I would catch them looking at me in a strange way. Now in hindsight I think the ex was complaining about me and I didn't fit what the ex had said. I did catch him making me sound like a real b**h to some men working on the farm. They seemed suprised when I talked to them about the work they were doing. So, yes the ex sabotaged any friendships I might have made.
I have volunteered at some of the horse events but they have their own list of volunteers to pull from and I never get called back. Again that caste system that drives this town. It's full of people who want my dollars but not me. What can I do to advance them and how much money can they get from me? Who do I know that might have money? They are all trying to make names for themselves and I'm not like that. So I've given up on any kind of friendship in this town and I quietly live by myself out in the boonies.
Since my N's D&D is quite recent, I haven't been in another relationship since then yet. But definitely I feel less engaged with people. I feel lonely not because I am not with my N but because I can't seem to trust anyone anymore. Every time I meet people, I hear this little voice in the back of my head saying, "be careful. This person might be lying to you just like my xN. It's best not to trust anyone in the first place than to get hurt again." I am hoping this will get better eventually as I continue to recover from my trauma, but I'm almost frightened and overly-standoffish when it comes to meeting just about anyone.
I do have a circle of very supportive and close friends of over 10 years, but I stopped sharing my experience or ask for advice a long time ago....I feel like they just don't get it, and I can't make them understand me either, which is a very lonely feeling.
And Trisha, what you said I can relate to in a lot of ways. I was the only girl and oldest and attended several elementary schools; from 4th through 8th grade I went to a school that I (and about 300 other kids, total) were bussed to from all over the city. So after school and stuff, none of my school "friends" lived anywhere near. So I tolerate and sometimes enjoy solitude, even seek it out to "recharge", but once I do go out and start talking or doing things with others, I realize how much enjoyable it can be. I've heard certain parts of the small town (6 miles away, about 1500 people) referred to as "snob hill". To me, it just seems that rural places can be just so used to having the same people there forever that unless you have the right personality, it's hard to ever feel like "part of the group". I feel like "an outsider" after 20 years, but at least (from living in the city after the divorce) I know it's not my fate or who I am. Maybe it's a persistence thing, but I've heard numerous people here who live in similar areas express something pretty similar. I defintely don't understand it, though.
Quepasa: Ha! Books are excellent; I used to have myself buried in them all the time ... but, and this to me is sort of odd, I no longer read fiction, ever since that first really big ending to the "marriage" years ago. And it's just odd to me, thinking back, because I would get so engrossed I'd sit up til way past any reasonable time, needing to get up for work in several hours and read. I sometimes think that because of my shyness, insecurities and being alone so much, I did seek refuge in books and there was kind of an "invisible wall" between me and others. And I think as the relationship went on, I sensed more and more my aloneness but it wasn't conscious, then. Now I am much more interested in having and making good relationships, knowing about people so as not to make the same mistakes, making time for them, etc.
I guess that empathy builds a bridge, a level at which the separation between us as individuals isn't felt and there is some sort of connection. That it can be felt from both people's perspectives, when it exists, occasionally it can be faked, but I'm starting to think a lot of it (empathy) hinges not only on "knowing the experience" or similar but a lot more and that trauma caused by N type tactics, especially coupled with many people's limited understanding/empathy may cause blocks where, for at least a time, people who might be trying to build a bridge, or would ... well, basically, we can't identify them. I know trauma can cause extreme hypersensitivity to others' words and behavior; I know I went through a period of not being able to "interpret" others as I normally would have because of this hypersensitivity. Sort of like going from pitch dark to sunlight.
A therapist I used to see told me once that we are all, ultimately, "alone". He said a few things about his own take on it, but it wasn't meant to be negative, more so he was communicating that, even if someone loves you so much that they loved perfectly, it is still impossible, because of sense boundaries as well as physical boundaries, for us to perfectly understand another or be completely understood. And that was supposed to be part of the root of loneliness, but when you understand it (the reality of the boundaries that always exist to some degree), aloneness isn't as "lonely" and relationships, more relaxed.
I really appreciated having that to think over, because some of us know the feeling of being with other people and feeling completely alone, or trying to get others to "hear" us or understand and it doesn't happen or seem to. It made me realize, too, that all of us are probably "blind" in terms of some kinds of understanding and for that we can sometimes be thankful, for other types of understanding, we can search and never give up until we find what we can about it and who knows what else in the meantime?
Thank you! Like you said above, I'm exactly in the "I am ready for rejection BEFORE getting involved" phase right now. I have slowly started getting back in a dating scene (although I'm not sure how ready I'm emotionally to really see anyone), but my guards are up so high, it's not even funny.
I am hopeful though that someday I will come out of the trauma and be even better than pre-N relationship! :)
Thank you for your kind words :)
I completely agree with you. My therapist said, "you just need to choose who are worthy of your trust, love and caring. Unfortunately not everyone deserves them." :)
I have only been out for almost a year. Was (still am legally) married to the man for 16. I have now discovered within myself that I became codependant, I was very independant before him, but he found a way of slowely taking my life and making it his.. He was very good. Indifference is how I faced life because feeling anything hurt. I did not always agree with him but voiceing my own opinion caused an onset of verbal and emotional abuse I learned to stay silent. Then get reprimended for not having my own opinion or life.
So, yes, now I am messed up. I would say that for me therapy helped a lot. I went right away, when things were raw. I learned to set boundaries with him, as we have kids together they can always be crossed.
Your lack of trust in others is normal after dealing with an Narc. and yes, to some extent I think it will pass. But, if you are really concerned about it then I would find a good therapist to work though some of the baggage he left you with.
Also, for me, I find that now I am alone. I am not yet feeling lonely. Lonely is what I felt while in the relationship with the N.
Also, please take time to introduce yourself in your own topic line. There are some women who have been out longer than me who will have better and more kind words for you.